A Christian friend Sowed the Seed of Doubt

[Tristan Johan]

There are many other reasons why I gave up on God...so many. Almost as if God made a case against himself. But the process was irrevocably started with a couple of conversations with a Christian friend.

In one conversation, we were talking about doubts that we had to set aside. And he mentioned the genocides. And it lodged in my brain, and it never went away. It was like poison, and it wasn't as if it was poison that I created or implemented. It was God's own action, or inaction, that poisoned the faith that He was good or trustworthy.

The other thing was a conversation about trust. We talked about the idea that Trust is not given, it is earned. But then, this same friend described a more sophisticated reality beyond the cliche. We extend our trust to someone, and hope that the trust we have invested will be affirmed. And if that trust is not affirmed, then we have to withdraw that trust, in order to protect ourselves.

There always seemed to be something about God that made me hesitant about him. I had difficulty ridding myself of the feeling that I didn't the concept that He is always present, watching and judging us. So as a Christian, when I would make choices that were right, ethical and moral, and were what God wanted, I always had to find against mistrust, and rely on the notion that everything would work out according to God's plan. I watch another Christian friend struggle with the trust issue, but fight through it to continue to place trust in God, despite mounting evidence that her faith in God was being repayed with misery in life.

She lost her faith, and she gave up on God, became agnostic; always hunting for the truth, but with severe doubts that emerged from being burned and hurt beyond her capacity to tolerate. And her friends and loved ones did not show compassion, and challenged that she had been tested beyond her ability to continue to trust.

Eventually, I also experience a some very serious, grave calamities in my life, and a large chunk of it emerged from doing what was right by God; doing the right thing. My Christian friend with whom I had had those conversations about Trust and those incidents that cause doubt about faith pleaded with me to extend my trust and open my heart to God. But even though I recapped for him his own explanation that we withdraw trust when it's not been proven to be deserved, he was disconnected from how his explained concept of trust impacted on why I could no longer accord God any trust.

In a sense, he doesn't understand the role he played in my loss of faith and trust. But I can hardly lay that on him, he has enough burdens in his life. From where I stand, I'm appalled at the way his own life is constantly in a state of decay, in a way that he can't help (because of brain/mental disabilities) and he continues to place his trust in God, which God does not affirm. He's tried to be an example of a good Christian, but he doesn't try to take initiative for himself, has difficulty finding work and paying off his debts. Yet, I have swallowed my pride and got work which I initially never wanted to return to. He keeps setting his sights unrealistically higher, and never breaks through the smaller hurdles; while I have settled and dealt with having to accept lesser jobs, and slowly but surely my own debt is actually getting paid off.

As appalled as I am at how God has left him to rot in constantly diminishing circumstances, naively trusting in Him to his cost; I have not called into question the reasonableness of continuing to trust God. I can't deny that I feel a certain amount of anger and resentment at him for the role he played in eroding my faith, I would not question his faith to his face (like Job's friends in that awful book), I would not try to persuade him to give up his faith. I feel compassion for him, and hatred toward God, which is what I felt toward God before and after Christianity, before I tried to extend trust to Him in the hopes that my trust would be affirmed. I can't help those feelings of hatred, contempt, aversion; everything I see about God is contrary to the concept of God as loving, wise, a good example, ect.

 

[joey_downunder]

There are many other reasons why I gave up on God...so many. Almost as if God made a case against himself.

Welcome to what many Christians go through in their faith walk - either to slip away into unbelief or instead grow stronger in their faith.

What makes you assume that it is God or you only who is making the accusations? You should remember that the bible makes it clear that there is another voice in the equation - Satan, the Accuser.

In one conversation, we were talking about doubts that we had to set aside. And he mentioned the genocides.

Which ones? Human history overall or the ones specificially mentioned in the Old Testament?

It was God's own action, or inaction, that poisoned the faith that He was good or trustworthy.

Are you looking only at the details or the big picture? Sometimes the worst things have led to outcomes that would never have occured otherwise. e.g. Holocaust -> modern Israel being formed.

The other thing was a conversation about trust...... We extend our trust to someone, and hope that the trust we have invested will be affirmed. And if that trust is not affirmed, then we have to withdraw that trust, in order to protect ourselves.

Yes that is often a wise strategy to use towards people.

There always seemed to be something about God that made me hesitant about him. I had difficulty ridding myself of the feeling that I didn't the concept that He is always present, watching and judging us.

That is the sinner nature talking. Every Christian knows what you're talking about there.

So as a Christian, when I would make choices that were right, ethical and moral, and were what God wanted, I always had to find against mistrust, and rely on the notion that everything would work out according to God's plan.

Again any Christian who is honest with themselves has experienced the same inner struggles.

I watch another Christian friend struggle with the trust issue......
She lost her faith, and she gave up on God, became agnostic......
And her friends and loved ones did not show compassion, and challenged that she had been tested beyond her ability to continue to trust.

That's sad. Times like that make other people show their true colours. Many "fair weather" friends/family, very few "dark cloud" ones.

Eventually, I also experience a some very serious, grave calamities in my life, and a large chunk of it emerged from doing what was right by God; doing the right thing.

Do you think this is the main issue regarding your personal struggle now?
You were doing what at the time you believed was good, but God did not reward you for doing so but (in your mind) punished you instead?

My Christian friend with whom I had had those conversations about Trust and those incidents that cause doubt about faith pleaded with me to extend my trust and open my heart to God...... he was disconnected from how his explained concept of trust impacted on why I could no longer accord God any trust.

Perhaps it's because you are applying a very sensible approach to people (and when they fail to live up to your expectations) and trying to apply it to God as well? God is not a mere human being. He does not ever have to answer to us. That may seem very unfair to us but that is the way it is.

From where I stand, I'm appalled at the way his own life is constantly in a state of decay, in a way that he can't help (because of brain/mental disabilities) and he continues to place his trust in God, which God does not affirm.

So because you cannot see God affirming your friend in outward ways you are assuming God is not rewarding him in others? Where do you think that genuine peace and trust is coming from? Before you dismiss that as being due to mental infirmities, in the past I have worked with mentally disabled/ill people and joy and happiness is not always present.....

....while I have settled and dealt with having to accept lesser jobs, and slowly but surely my own debt is actually getting paid off.

So God is being merciful to you in this area instead and you can't see that right now?

I would not try to persuade him to give up his faith. I feel compassion for him, and hatred toward God, which is what I felt toward God before and after Christianity, before I tried to extend trust to Him in the hopes that my trust would be affirmed. I can't help those feelings of hatred, contempt, aversion; everything I see about God is contrary to the concept of God as loving, wise, a good example, ect.

It really seems to me that you're hurting inwardly so much that you feel like you've lost your faith. You may never know in this lifetime what purpose has been achieved via what you have experienced personally.
This website came to mind. Grace Covenant Church: Wenatchee, WA > The Smiling Face of God's Providence: Baby Mac #4
Please read it/watch talk and see that God will use the most difficult things in people's lives.

 

[joey_downunder]

The other thing was a conversation about trust. We talked about the idea that Trust is not given, it is earned. But then, this same friend described a more sophisticated reality beyond the cliche. We extend our trust to someone, and hope that the trust we have invested will be affirmed. And if that trust is not affirmed, then we have to withdraw that trust, in order to protect ourselves.

Just thought of several bible verses/ passages. This is how God rightfully earns our trust. It is up to us to believe it or not.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a)

[Jesus said] “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. (John 15:12-14)

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. (Romans 5:6-11)

Using that logic - that trust should be earned and withdrawn if that person fails to deserve that trust - should God have given that sacrifice of His only Son for Tristan Johan's sake?

Do you believe -to be fair of course, no double standards -that God should now decide to withdraw all blessings and mercies for Tristan Johan since he has rejected Him (hopefully just a temporary phase Tristan's going through)? Should God now judge you as you judge Him/others? As soon as you sin again, remove all priviledges until you are completely trustworthy and perfect in His sight?

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:8-13)

 

[Sketcher]

So what is it exactly that was making you doubt God? And if your friend's life circumstances play into it, what promise of God is your friend holding onto which God doesn't seem to be fulfilling?

 

[mandelduke]

There are many other reasons why I gave up on God...so many. Almost as if God made a case against himself. But the process was irrevocably started with a couple of conversations with a Christian friend.

In one conversation, we were talking about doubts that we had to set aside. And he mentioned the genocides. And it lodged in my brain, and it never went away. It was like poison, and it wasn't as if it was poison that I created or implemented. It was God's own action, or inaction, that poisoned the faith that He was good or trustworthy.

The other thing was a conversation about trust. We talked about the idea that Trust is not given, it is earned. But then, this same friend described a more sophisticated reality beyond the cliche. We extend our trust to someone, and hope that the trust we have invested will be affirmed. And if that trust is not affirmed, then we have to withdraw that trust, in order to protect ourselves.

There always seemed to be something about God that made me hesitant about him. I had difficulty ridding myself of the feeling that I didn't the concept that He is always present, watching and judging us. So as a Christian, when I would make choices that were right, ethical and moral, and were what God wanted, I always had to find against mistrust, and rely on the notion that everything would work out according to God's plan. I watch another Christian friend struggle with the trust issue, but fight through it to continue to place trust in God, despite mounting evidence that her faith in God was being repayed with misery in life.

She lost her faith, and she gave up on God, became agnostic; always hunting for the truth, but with severe doubts that emerged from being burned and hurt beyond her capacity to tolerate. And her friends and loved ones did not show compassion, and challenged that she had been tested beyond her ability to continue to trust.

Eventually, I also experience a some very serious, grave calamities in my life, and a large chunk of it emerged from doing what was right by God; doing the right thing. My Christian friend with whom I had had those conversations about Trust and those incidents that cause doubt about faith pleaded with me to extend my trust and open my heart to God. But even though I recapped for him his own explanation that we withdraw trust when it's not been proven to be deserved, he was disconnected from how his explained concept of trust impacted on why I could no longer accord God any trust.

In a sense, he doesn't understand the role he played in my loss of faith and trust. But I can hardly lay that on him, he has enough burdens in his life. From where I stand, I'm appalled at the way his own life is constantly in a state of decay, in a way that he can't help (because of brain/mental disabilities) and he continues to place his trust in God, which God does not affirm. He's tried to be an example of a good Christian, but he doesn't try to take initiative for himself, has difficulty finding work and paying off his debts. Yet, I have swallowed my pride and got work which I initially never wanted to return to. He keeps setting his sights unrealistically higher, and never breaks through the smaller hurdles; while I have settled and dealt with having to accept lesser jobs, and slowly but surely my own debt is actually getting paid off.

As appalled as I am at how God has left him to rot in constantly diminishing circumstances, naively trusting in Him to his cost; I have not called into question the reasonableness of continuing to trust God. I can't deny that I feel a certain amount of anger and resentment at him for the role he played in eroding my faith, I would not question his faith to his face (like Job's friends in that awful book), I would not try to persuade him to give up his faith. I feel compassion for him, and hatred toward God, which is what I felt toward God before and after Christianity, before I tried to extend trust to Him in the hopes that my trust would be affirmed. I can't help those feelings of hatred, contempt, aversion; everything I see about God is contrary to the concept of God as loving, wise, a good example, ect.

This may be a good time to take your medication! (LOL)

 

[aiki]

In one conversation, we were talking about doubts that we had to set aside. And he mentioned the genocides. And it lodged in my brain, and it never went away. It was like poison, and it wasn't as if it was poison that I created or implemented. It was God's own action, or inaction, that poisoned the faith that He was good or trustworthy.

What genocides, exactly?

The other thing was a conversation about trust. We talked about the idea that Trust is not given, it is earned. But then, this same friend described a more sophisticated reality beyond the cliche. We extend our trust to someone, and hope that the trust we have invested will be affirmed. And if that trust is not affirmed, then we have to withdraw that trust, in order to protect ourselves.

Or, in God's case, recognize that we do not understand as He does and are therefore in no place to judge if God has truly abused our trust or not. He is also looking at our life on earth in the context of eternity. Our eighty-some years here are not the be-all-and-end-all of our existence. The time we spend on this planet is less than the blink of an eye compared to the eternity that is to come. For this reason, God does not place the same importance upon our life on earth as we do. We cling to this life like it's all there is while God sees that it is the tiniest part of our true existence. We think God ought to be judged based upon what happens to us while we live on Earth rather than on the joyful and unending life that follows this one. That seems rather strange to me...

I watch another Christian friend struggle with the trust issue, but fight through it to continue to place trust in God, despite mounting evidence that her faith in God was being repayed with misery in life.

Hey, life is miserable with or without God. He doesn't promise to keep us from all troubles, but He does promise to walk with us through them. This seems better by far than enduring them alone. At least in a universe where God exists, there is an overarching purpose God is pursuing even in things that we find painful and tragic. In a godless universe there is only the luck of the draw. Pain and tragedy are meaningless and entirely destructive. There is no sense one can make of pain and suffering in a universe ordered solely by natural, mechanical, impersonal processes. Is such a universe truly preferable to one in which God is at work and ultimately in control? Not as far as I'm concerned.

Eventually, I also experience a some very serious, grave calamities in my life, and a large chunk of it emerged from doing what was right by God; doing the right thing.

"Doing the right thing" brought Jesus to the torment and death of the cross. In an evil world corrupted by sin, this is often the consequence of following God's commands. Darkness has no tolerance for light. If obeying God caused such pain and suffering to Christ, why are we surprised when we his followers experience the same thing?

As appalled as I am at how God has left him to rot in constantly diminishing circumstances, naively trusting in Him to his cost; I have not called into question the reasonableness of continuing to trust God.

Trusting in God can be, for some, an excuse to be passive. We are not puppets God moves about apart from our choosing to be moved. He expects us to act. He has given each of His children the capacity to live as He commands at the moment of their conversion. But many believers just sit, waiting on God to force them into action.

Life is a "constantly diminishing circumstance." The passage of time erodes our physical bodies causing decreasing functionality in them. Our hair thins, our teeth fall out, our eyes dim, our joints ache and stiffen - and finally we die. Is God unjust or evil in allowing this to happen? No. He has not made us for time, but for eternity. And we cannot move into the real living for which God has made us until we leave this earthly domain. I don't see, then, "constantly diminishing circumstances" as reason to mistrust God.

I can't help those feelings of hatred, contempt, aversion; everything I see about God is contrary to the concept of God as loving, wise, a good example, ect.

Well, you certainly didn't meet the God I know. He has been to me the loving, wise, good God the Bible declares Him to be. Is the difference in our experience something to do with God? Or does it, perhaps, have more to do with how we have approached God?

Selah.

 

[Tristan Johan]

What makes you assume that it is God or you only who is making the accusations? You should remember that the bible makes it clear that there is another voice in the equation - Satan, the Accuser.

A perfectly good reason for never making Satan in the first place. Like we really need something to make the cosmos more confusing. Not a great way to try and work to making sure everyone that can possibly be saved is saved.

Which ones? Human history overall or the ones specificially mentioned in the Old Testament?

I'm not going to play a dodgeball game over what we're supposed to believe is allegory or history in the Bible; and we're supposed to just magically, intuitively know the difference. It's history until it needs to conveniently be allegory. God wanted the genocides included in his book, attributable to Him. That's his problem. I've been looking for a reasonable answer for years; this question is a waste of time. Try making an intuitive leap about what I mean, it should be obvious. Also keep in mind it's not your place to make apologies for God; He's responsible for his own behavior. After years of asking and searching, there is no acceptable answer. Don't toy with me.

Are you looking only at the details or the big picture? Sometimes the worst things have led to outcomes that would never have occured otherwise. e.g. Holocaust -> modern Israel being formed.

I've been looking at both the big picture and the details. It still amounts to appalling behavior, with an abundance of alternative actions available.

Yes that is often a wise strategy to use towards people.

Unwise because God will make sure I'm tortured for eternity, following a lifetime of this hellish existence on Earth, in punishment for not opting into a system that is obfuscated by things like Satan, translation issues, ect; a system that looks stupid and bullying.

That is the sinner nature talking. Every Christian knows what you're talking about there.

No. I talking about the moments when I would like to have the dignity of some privacy, like restroom breaks and so forth. Without meaning to stereotype, I've been under the impression that a fair sample size of Christianity tend toward political conservatism, and desire for smaller government, in part because they want the government to mind it's own business when it comes to people's personal affairs at home. The same concept applies here...and God has attributed to himself the same sort of behavior that governments are always getting flack for. Because He's God doesn't prove that He's better, and He can demand entitlement all He wants while telling us to suck it up and not opt into entitlement behavior. He wants us to put up with his mean streak and love Him for it.

Do you think this is the main issue regarding your personal struggle now?
You were doing what at the time you believed was good, but God did not reward you for doing so but (in your mind) punished you instead?

An act of love and concern should not be met with emptiness...except that it is. The emptiness of God's presence is to the point where He must be actively covering His tracks, fogging up our ability to search for Him; He's practically avoiding us, and remaining silent when we need something. He's not doing everything in His power to make sure we're okay on this worthless planet, He's not showing love by fighting hard to make sure Most if not all of us benefit from His mercy system of insanity. In point of fact, I recently came across a reference to God actively confusing people who He's pre-determined are destined for Hell, just to make sure that there's no mistake that they actually do go there...as if He needs to do something that has already been destined by His design. Very disappointing. And seems like a pretty clear example that God is not doing His best to make sure everyone is going to be okay.

Perhaps it's because you are applying a very sensible approach to people (and when they fail to live up to your expectations) and trying to apply it to God as well? God is not a mere human being. He does not ever have to answer to us. That may seem very unfair to us but that is the way it is.

Interesting to put it this way. Being not human, despite engaging in acts that we can recognize as characteristic of the most sadistic of human beings...yes, He does come across as distinctly inhuman. Not being human doesn't make him better than us; and the average human manages to go through life without committing genocide. He can take His pretensions of being better than us and shove it.

So because you cannot see God affirming your friend in outward ways you are assuming God is not rewarding him in others? Where do you think that genuine peace and trust is coming from? Before you dismiss that as being due to mental infirmities, in the past I have worked with mentally disabled/ill people and joy and happiness is not always present.....

My friend aspired to be an example in such a superficial, facile way; hoping for a specific outcome. I have seen the exact opposite thing happen. If his efforts some how do magically turn around, at this point, it will be sheer luck on his part (or a disconnected miracle from God which my friend will not learn from), not any work he's done.

So God is being merciful to you in this area instead and you can't see that right now?

My own hard work is my hard work, not His. He would claim to have done the hard work I've have struggled to accomplish...?...would you claim to attribute my desperate struggle to His efforts!? That would make Him tantamount to being a worthless, lazy, layabout of a Diety, making others work and suffer and taking credit for their efforts for Himself.

Oh, sure, He could sabotage my efforts. Which would be...bullying, again. I recognize He could reach down and smack me down, and I hate Him for it. He won't help, He'll take credit for my work, or He may ruin everything that I've tried to build. Mercy by way of refraining from bullying behavior is pretty thin ground to boast about being fully of an abundance of Mercy.

 

[Tristan Johan]

Using that logic - that trust should be earned and withdrawn if that person fails to deserve that trust - should God have given that sacrifice of His only Son for Tristan Johan's sake?

Well, He's the one who made Tristan Johan wrong in the first place, with a default destination of Hell. I never wanted to exist, so I'm not grateful for having been constructed as a failure to justify his hope that I can be railroaded by threat of violence into His Mercy system.

Do you believe -to be fair of course, no double standards -that God should now decide to withdraw all blessings and mercies for Tristan Johan since he has rejected Him (hopefully just a temporary phase Tristan's going through)? Should God now judge you as you judge Him/others? As soon as you sin again, remove all priviledges until you are completely trustworthy and perfect in His sight?

He started this game, made me so that I would automatically be judged. He modelled judgemental behavior for us. If He doesn't like being called out on it, He could choose to show real empathy and not judge us, or He could have constructed us to not be sinful as our default state. Additionally, He could refrain from punishing us for being exactly what He made us to be. Anything else is not compassionate, loving, merciful, or kind.

 

[Tristan Johan]

What genocides, exactly?

Or, in God's case, recognize that we do not understand as He does and are therefore in no place to judge if God has truly abused our trust or not.

This isn't about trust that has been abused. It's about trust that has been placed by faith in a confusing book from which emerges conflicting, argumentative doctrine. We have nothing else. Nothing is what God gives us.

We cling to this life like it's all there is while God sees that it is the tiniest part of our true existence.

Speak for yourself. I'm feeling very dead inside. I never wanted to live. Being caught between a miserable life and God Railroad system of Mercy and Justice is just one Hell before another, so it's not very impressive. Makes it look like our existence was crafted by someone sadistic or neglectful, or less imaginative than us.

We think God ought to be judged based upon what happens to us while we live on Earth

Well, yes, actually, because...

rather than on the joyful and unending life that follows this one.

...most people are not destined for joyful unending life, by God's design that we be flawed, therefore providing Him justification for judging us for the flaw that He built in.

He doesn't promise to keep us from all troubles, but He does promise to walk with us through them.

Which is so much like having a fair weather friend who pretends not to exist. Not very supportive.

This seems better by far than enduring them alone. At least in a universe where God exists, there is an overarching purpose God is pursuing even in things that we find painful and tragic. In a godless universe there is only the luck of the draw. Pain and tragedy are meaningless and entirely destructive. There is no sense one can make of pain and suffering in a universe ordered solely by natural, mechanical, impersonal processes. Is such a universe truly preferable to one in which God is at work and ultimately in control? Not as far as I'm concerned.

This is an argument you present to an atheist or an agnostic. That is not what I am. I absolutely believe that God exists, but I'm a dystheist, a maltheist...a misotheist. The implications of his instructions "Believe in me, and love me; or I'll make you suffer dearly for failing to do both" are clear and more terrifying than what your talking about.

I've given Him a chance, I've tried to learn how this basic message is not true, but God has not shown the way to resolve how His instructions match up with being good and loving and merciful in the truest sense (meaning without the threat of violence and suffering).

"Doing the right thing" brought Jesus to the torment and death of the cross. In an evil world corrupted by sin, this is often the consequence of following God's commands. Darkness has no tolerance for light. If obeying God caused such pain and suffering to Christ, why are we surprised when we his followers experience the same thing?

Why do I hear Christians say then that God is intolerant of darkness, so much so that the attrition rate of people consigned to Hell is appalling compared to those who are saved? Whose supposed to be the good guy in those circumstances? Intolerance going both ways; so what? The Lord God Almighty can't rise above it, pitch in a little more to help us through the process of cleansing ourselves? He may have placed Jesus in the position of being an underdog. But He's done himself no favors by placing Satan in a position of being an underdog as well. Somewhere on this forum, a Seeker asked who is winning, God or Satan. It's not a very impressive victory if God loses 90% of people who want to be good people because He's failed to convince so many people, or failed to guide them to precisely the correct version of Christianity (out of how many sects, without even considering all the religions outside of Christianity on top of all that). So He smacks down Satan and sets up Jesus up to rule the Earth, and boils off the wicked ones in the lake of fire. That is not a victory if Satan tricked most people not to believe in Him. That's a massive, spectacular failure. Don't talk to me about free will, either, I already know that it's not Biblical, and Christians disagree on it anyway. Let's not waste time on that merry-go-round.

Trusting in God can be, for some, an excuse to be passive.

Yep.

We are not puppets God moves about apart from our choosing to be moved. He expects us to act.

Maybe He could provide some incentive, by not trying to claim credit for the good deeds that we do, and the hard work that we do against darkness? Inspired in His name, sure, but not a finger on the energy we personally burn off.

He has given each of His children the capacity to live as He commands at the moment of their conversion. But many believers just sit, waiting on God to force them into action.

My friend does not have the capacity to survive without clinging to others trying to survive drowning. God has not empowered Him; and yes, he waits for God to force Him into action, which even then He does not take. It doesn't matter how strong his faith is, God has all but thrown him to the wolves, necessitating a retreat to the shelter of family...it will be even more difficult for him to break free now.

Someone mentioned mental illness. I know for a fact that he has debilitating disorders. He is like me, but more so. Self sufficiency is not sustainable for him, which means that he cannot excel in life for God's cause. He is always being turned more inward, more insular.

Life is a "constantly diminishing circumstance." The passage of time erodes our physical bodies causing decreasing functionality in them. Our hair thins, our teeth fall out, our eyes dim, our joints ache and stiffen - and finally we die. Is God unjust or evil in allowing this to happen? No. He has not made us for time, but for eternity. And we cannot move into the real living for which God has made us until we leave this earthly domain. I don't see, then, "constantly diminishing circumstances" as reason to mistrust God.

It's not about just about constantly diminishing circumstances, it's about how he cannot be a strength, an oasis, a resource for others in need...that is what he needs from others, with no respite for those others he relies on. This is a horrific thing to have to face about yourself, without being given the strength to break free of it.

What's worse, a handicap that can be clearly identified as physical, or an invisible one? Know one can point to a missing appendage on my friend, because they cannot see what's missing in his brain, no one can see the handicap. That is also horrific, to be self aware, not believed because a condition is invisible, and given no concession made by God (one might even go so far as to say that God's own followers might label the invisible flaw as a sin, and not consider that it's a handicap that cannot be overcome without meaningful intervention).

Well, you certainly didn't meet the God I know. He has been to me the loving, wise, good God the Bible declares Him to be. Is the difference in our experience something to do with God? Or does it, perhaps, have more to do with how we have approached God?

Selah.

[Christian Bale Tirade Voice]Oh, good for you![/Christian Bale Tirade Voice] I'm so glad God revealed himself so clearly. If I just approach the God who threatens violence and suffering while I live through misery nicely, he'll give me my wife back or give me a new one, He'll magically fix my brain, He'll make me feel normal among other fellow humans, or He'll make sure that that distinctive absence of His presence will seem like less of an empty nothingness this time around?

God has not persuaded me to renew trust in Him.

 

[ForceofTime]

Well, He's the one who made Tristan Johan wrong in the first place, with a default destination of Hell. I never wanted to exist, so I'm not grateful for having been constructed as a failure to justify his hope that I can be railroaded by threat of violence into His Mercy system.

Just what has God made you to be, Tristan?

 

[MyLordMySavior]

Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?

39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

 

[MyLordMySavior]

“Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.

9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?

13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.

19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”

 

[MyLordMySavior]

“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
7“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.

15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?

 

[MyLordMySavior]

Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[b]?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”

 

[joey_downunder]

Tristan - your entries made me remember this fairy tale. Metaphor can speak louder than objective factual statements. The Snow Queen by Hans Christian Andersen

You are now seeing the "half-full or half-empty" glass like the second bloke. What makes you so sure that you are looking at God through a clean looking-glass?

Think back to your past - has personal pain *ever* affected your judgement and clarity of thought? Who notices the sunshine and beauty of nature when they've just lost their job or got hit by a bus?

What's worse, a handicap that can be clearly identified as physical, or an invisible one? Know one can point to a missing appendage on my friend, because they cannot see what's missing in his brain, no one can see the handicap. That is also horrific, to be self aware, not believed because a condition is invisible, and given no concession made by God (one might even go so far as to say that God's own followers might label the invisible flaw as a sin, and not consider that it's a handicap that cannot be overcome without meaningful intervention).

How are you so sure that those of us who have *invisible* disabilities are given no concessions from God? Are you God? God does give us what we can bear. e.g. I am unable to work but God gave me a very emotionally stable husband who has always had secure jobs. We may have had to tighten our belts at times but bills have always been paid on time.

It sounds like your friend - no matter what it looks like to outsiders - is getting wonderful inner strength from God. I know that makes no sense at all to skeptics and those whose hearts are hardened against God.

Have you had your ideas of what Christianity should be like via the "health and prosperity" Gospel? Great website exposing Word-of-Faith distortions. THE WORD on The Word of Faith (a GroupBlog)

Can you please show us the bible passages that clearly promise that every believer will always have an easy, successful and full-of-purpose life (i.e. in the eyes of the world) once they make a once-off decision for Christ?

 

[Tristan Johan]

To MyLordMySavior:

I was surprised by how quickly I identified the writings from the book of Job. But it's such a disappointment, and I'm very sorry to say that; but the very premise of Job from the get-go is reason enough to be wary of and not place trust in God.

 

[ForceofTime]

Don't you know you are also made in the image of God?

I came across a sermon not that long ago by Bill McLeod called "Watching Joseph Die" where he says the following:

"They found a jar in a cave somewhere in Arabia and it had some kernels of wheat in it 3,000 years old. Now, they didn't say how many kernels there were in the jar, so we took the number, let's say, 500. So here are 500 kernels of wheat, 3,000 years, and you count them and there's still only 500. How can this be? 3,000 years and still not even 501? Why?"

You already have the seeds, Tristan. If they have not made more then maybe it's not the seeds that are the problem, but how they have been planted.

Since this has turned into a Bible study, I would like to offer a few:

Ezekiel 18:23-32 KJV
(23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
(24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
(25) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
(26) When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
(27) Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
(28) Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(29) Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
(30) Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
(31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Ezekiel 33:11-20 KJV
(11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(12) Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
(13) When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
(14) Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
(15) If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(16) None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
(17) Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
(18) When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
(19) But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
(20) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

 

[MyLordMySavior]

To MyLordMySavior:

I was surprised by how quickly I identified the writings from the book of Job. But it's such a disappointment, and I'm very sorry to say that; but the very premise of Job from the get-go is reason enough to be wary of and not place trust in God.

It is my favorite writings, to be honest. Poor Job, you know? All these horrible things are happening to him. His entire family dies, except for his wife. He loses his homes, all of his riches, and then he is attacked with illnesses almost to the point of death. It is almost a horror story. Finally, after trusting and enduring it for so long, he finally cries out to God. Why God? Why are you doing this to me?

God's answer is amazing. God doesn't bend down and say, "I am sorry. Stick through it." or, "Just trust me, Job."

No. God's answer is better than that. Not only is it an answer to Job, but can also be an answer to your friend and even you.

Who are you, really, take a good long look at yourself in the mirror and answer this question. Who are you to question the Almighty?
You must remember who you are ACCUSING of such malice and unfaithfulness. Your intelligence is so low, and I am not meaning this in a condescending way, but as a matter of fact. Your intelligence is low compared to the Supreme eternal knowledge and wisdom you seriously cannot talk. You are a speck of dust, no, smaller then that. You are a virus, a prion! That is how low you are compared to God. You cannot question HIM. Unless you know all of the past, unless you know all of the future, know everyones thoughts, see the world's hate and still love everyone, until you are all powerful and create a Universe of your own, with life and trillions of galaxies that have more then trillions of stars, each having their own unique system. Until YOU have to put up with and be pained and grieved by all the sin in the world, and until you can give someone eternal life, THEN can you look up to God and accuse Him of all that you accuse Him of. Do not raise yourself on God's level, because you know nothing. Still unbelievable to imagine all the ones with such hate and to know that Jesus, GOD, willing fully was tortured and nailed in your place so that you could have Heaven with Him forever. And you dare accuse Him. Y

 

[Tristan Johan]

It is my favorite writings, to be honest. Poor Job, you know? All these horrible things are happening to him. His entire family dies, except for his wife. He loses his homes, all of his riches, and then he is attacked with illnesses almost to the point of death. It is almost a horror story. Finally, after trusting and enduring it for so long, he finally cries out to God. Why God? Why are you doing this to me?

God's answer is amazing. God doesn't bend down and say, "I am sorry. Stick through it." or, "Just trust me, Job."

No. God's answer is better than that. Not only is it an answer to Job, but can also be an answer to your friend and even you.

Who are you, really, take a good long look at yourself in the mirror and answer this question. Who are you to question the Almighty?
You must remember who you are ACCUSING of such malice and unfaithfulness. Your intelligence is so low, and I am not meaning this in a condescending way, but as a matter of fact. Your intelligence is low compared to the Supreme eternal knowledge and wisdom you seriously cannot talk. You are a speck of dust, no, smaller then that. You are a virus, a prion! That is how low you are compared to God. You cannot question HIM. Unless you know all of the past, unless you know all of the future, know everyones thoughts, see the world's hate and still love everyone, until you are all powerful and create a Universe of your own, with life and trillions of galaxies that have more then trillions of stars, each having their own unique system. Until YOU have to put up with and be pained and grieved by all the sin in the world, and until you can give someone eternal life, THEN can you look up to God and accuse Him of all that you accuse Him of. Do not raise yourself on God's level, because you know nothing. Still unbelievable to imagine all the ones with such hate and to know that Jesus, GOD, willing fully was tortured and nailed in your place so that you could have Heaven with Him forever. And you dare accuse Him. Y

I'm sorry, but I read it and it still doesn't persuade me that God is trustworthy. Everything about the book is a very poor look at God's character. I reiterate, He modelled the behavior of being Judgemental, made us like Him to some degree, and then treats us like garbage. The argument that He created all that, isn't that impressive and therefore justifies His atrocities doesn't persuade me either; because the way the world is constructed is a disappointment, and I myself wished never to be created. If He created me for the sole purpose of being disposed like garbage, then I might well argue that that justifies Judging Him, because I would rather not have been made in the first place and He ought to have known that and spared me His going through the motions efforts to save my soul when He doesn't really care (and, based on one Bible verse, might actually actively deceive me to make sure there is no danger that I'll end up in heaven).

Finally, the Book of Job has never helped, it's only ever made things worse. Why persist in rubbing my face in a book that makes me hate God more? To alienate me from Him more, as an agent of God, to make sure that there's no danger I'll end up in Heaven? I will tear apart another Bible if you reference Job again, don't mess around with me.

And don't you dare suggest I'm inferior in any way. I have enough self-esteem problems, without God trying to beat me down more. When self-esteem problems have reached debilitating levels, then maybe God and His agents might want to think about backing off, perhaps helping a persons self-confidence rather than attacking it? God renders himself useless for coping in this world again; does he want me to be a parasite that only survives in this world by clinging to others trying not to drown, putting them in danger of drowning too? That's what happened to my friend, he's endangered others by dragging them down.

This has not helped. Please consider your next posts carefully, I can feel my disgust with God increasing; it feels like He's proving Himself more useless for coping with the world.

Very disappointing.

 

[aiki]

I came across a sermon not that long ago by Bill McLeod called "Watching Joseph Die"...

Hey, Bill Mcleod was my grandfather! They mentioned the sermon you speak of above at his memorial service. He was quite a preacher!

Selah.