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After 40 days away from the Forums, this is one of the first few things I come across:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3280273&page=10
I have heard many people refer to science as a tool, I have also seen them use it in a maner to see and determine reality, similar to Glasses, or a telescope. the problem is it has no True concrete undisputable, undeniable, foundation to stand upon. Think of it like being abandoned on a desert island and you have hobbled together a crude makeshift raft.( Now granted the purpose of a raft is to travel, so I suppose you could pretend it were a hut, if you wish)
Jesus Said If you build your house on the sand It will fall, when the storm comes.
Science is like that it is hobbled together by sinful, (which should be the first thing you should note, along with the most important )limited, imperfect human beings. It may be well crafted, aestheticly pleasing, comfortable, and functional, But it is not permanent, it does not suit all of your needs, if the storm gets strong enough it will even fall apart on you.
And yet many hold fast to the illusion that it is strength.
http://www.christianforums.com/t3280273&page=13
I am disturbed that so many on here vehamently battle in defense of Science a supposed "tool" yet scripture, and the belief in it is seemingly cast aside, as foolishness, childishness, and ignorance.
http://www.christianforums.com/t3280273&page=14
Science is derived from many greco roman philosophies, and they were in fact pagans
chris777, welcome to the forums, and rest assured that I hold nothing personally against you. And yet not just once but three times and on the same thread you trot out this idea: that science is somehow merely a tool, fundamentally foreign from a Christian way of thinking. But tools are important. Without tools, nothing can be done by humans. And not just that, science is a particularly Christian tool.
I myself am studying towards a career in science. And no, I don't take Biology, or (probably) intend to study it, so "defending evolution" is the last thing on my mind. But I am sure that science is Scriptural, Judeo-Christian, and not "foundation-less" or "pagan". In fact a truly Christian understanding of the world leads to the best possible scientific philosophy.
Let's take a look at the competition first. From the fellow monotheists, the Islamic and strict-Judaistic views are pretty close to the Christian view, which incidentally might help to explain why Islamic and Christian neo-creationisms have very similar polemics (similar reactions towards a similar scientific worldview). There's maya, the central theme of Hinduism and philosophical Buddhism: the universe doesn't exist, it's just an illusion perpetrated by our minds or by Brahman's dreams. There's philosophical materialism which states that the material universe is all there is; as we see later, this deprives the universe of an ontological reason to exist. There is also the supernatural universe of the cultic, pagan, and (to a lesser extent) the dualistic Manichean and Zoroastrian traditions, in which divine interference is such a regular matter that one can trust science to be un-trustworthy.
So that's the playing field. What does Christianity have to offer?
Firstly, Christianity asserts that the material world is both real and meaningful. This really shouldn't be taken for granted. Hinduism supposes that the material world is meaningful, but not real; materialism supposes that the material world is real, but not meaningful. In the former, the world does not exist in the first place, so it cannot be studied; in the latter, there is no point in studying the world (since there is nothing outside the world which states that studying it has a point). Christianity is not merely a reaction to these views.
Within the Christian tradition, God reveals Himself through historical action. We are called to know God by knowing what He has done - and what He does, He does with material objects. When Jesus told us to drink the cup and eat the bread in remembrance of Him, He referred to material wine, material bread. When He fed the 5,000, He did not give them an illusion of being full, but actually created material sustenance. God is not shy to interact with the material world and use it to reveal Himself. This is the second pivotal point of Christianity: The material world serves to reveal God to His created. We do not recognize the Gnostic idea that the material world is evil and the spiritual good; God sees fit to use the material world, and even was incarnated as a man who was certainly material. This point really serves to elaborate the first: this is the meaning which the world has.
Are these points Biblical? Certainly! Job 38-39 and Romans 1, among many other passages, point to the fact that creation reveals its Creator. "But what does all this have to do with science?" you may ask, and rightly. The answer is simple: science is simply how humans know the material world. In fact, I've already arrived at my destination (that science is a very Christian activity) : if the material world reveals God, and science allows us to know the material world, then science allows us to know (part of) the revelation of God, and anything which allows us to know more of the revelation of God must be a Christian activity! But let's explore a little further.
How do I know anything? (I'm not saying that we cannot know anything for sure; but we need to examine how we know things for sure?) We do through consistency of experience. I know, for example, that fire burns. I don't know anyone who walked through a fire unprotected and did not suffer any burns. I have heard of many people who walked through a fire unprotected (or even partially protected) and suffered burns. Therefore I know that fire burns. And that in itself is science. Science is human knowledge of the consistent behaviour of the material world. Science begins when we know that fire burns and dropped objects fall (and break, too) and the faster you throw a ball the higher and farther it goes. Then it continues to knowing that burns happen when too much heat is transferred too fast, and that things fall because of gravity and that a ball theoretically follows a parabolic arch. Finally we learn that because of blackbody radiation (a special case of heat transfer) we can't allow electrons (whose discovery is itself a tremendous journey) to simply wander anywhere they want, and the same gravity that causes balls to fall also makes holes in space so deep that even light (which has a finite speed, who'd've thunk it?) can't escape.
All along, science simply describes, records, and manipulates what we know to be consistent in the world. Balls always fall downward, therefore science can say that gravity exists. And species change, therefore science can say that evolution happens. Science hasn't come up with anything new; science already has its hands full describing the universe which has existed for billions of years already! In other words, science is the observation that material objects behave consistently according to materially provable relationships.
And this is Christian too. Look at Genesis 1. Is God a sun god? or a moon god? or a god of this constellation or that? Is he a big sea monster? Is he man himself? No, God is not anything in creation. Creation is fundamentally separate from His creation, and His creation exists aside from Him (though it cannot exist without His willing it to exist). This means that creation, being real, has its own rules to play by. Compare this to the cultic, pagan traditions. The sun is a god, it can be defeated or appeased or angry or happy; we can dance to bring down rain and don't do this and that or you'll anger the rain dragon! The sun and moon and rain and stars are not just objects, they are nexuses of spiritual power and can very well behave non-naturalistically if you know the right incantations. This is not the Christian view. The Christian view has only one God who is above all created things; therefore, it demythologizes creation and paves the way for science. Again, the Christian understanding is fundamental to science.
"Ah, but what about miracles?" you ask. After all, the Babylonian Jewish trio walked through the fire and were precisely unharmed. But this just points back to what I was saying: that the material universe is used by God to reveal who He is. Now, would miracles exist if science didn't? They wouldn't. If we did not have the scientific understanding that fire burns, we would not be impressed that this once fire didn't burn, and we wouldn't see the revelation of God. If we were living in a world where sometimes fire burns but a significant portion of the time it doesn't, we wouldn't be surprised that the trio escaped unharmed; we'd put it down to luck. See? Without science we wouldn't recognize God.
I hope this adequately demonstrates that science has a very Christian foundation. It's not foundationless, it's not a mere tool, and it is most definitely not anti-Christian or pagan - even when it throws up oddballs like evolution that repel some Christians. Science is Christian through and through, and it is a tragedy for a Christian to call it anything else.
http://www.christianforums.com/t3280273&page=10
I have heard many people refer to science as a tool, I have also seen them use it in a maner to see and determine reality, similar to Glasses, or a telescope. the problem is it has no True concrete undisputable, undeniable, foundation to stand upon. Think of it like being abandoned on a desert island and you have hobbled together a crude makeshift raft.( Now granted the purpose of a raft is to travel, so I suppose you could pretend it were a hut, if you wish)
Jesus Said If you build your house on the sand It will fall, when the storm comes.
Science is like that it is hobbled together by sinful, (which should be the first thing you should note, along with the most important )limited, imperfect human beings. It may be well crafted, aestheticly pleasing, comfortable, and functional, But it is not permanent, it does not suit all of your needs, if the storm gets strong enough it will even fall apart on you.
And yet many hold fast to the illusion that it is strength.
http://www.christianforums.com/t3280273&page=13
I am disturbed that so many on here vehamently battle in defense of Science a supposed "tool" yet scripture, and the belief in it is seemingly cast aside, as foolishness, childishness, and ignorance.
http://www.christianforums.com/t3280273&page=14
Science is derived from many greco roman philosophies, and they were in fact pagans
chris777, welcome to the forums, and rest assured that I hold nothing personally against you. And yet not just once but three times and on the same thread you trot out this idea: that science is somehow merely a tool, fundamentally foreign from a Christian way of thinking. But tools are important. Without tools, nothing can be done by humans. And not just that, science is a particularly Christian tool.
I myself am studying towards a career in science. And no, I don't take Biology, or (probably) intend to study it, so "defending evolution" is the last thing on my mind. But I am sure that science is Scriptural, Judeo-Christian, and not "foundation-less" or "pagan". In fact a truly Christian understanding of the world leads to the best possible scientific philosophy.
Let's take a look at the competition first. From the fellow monotheists, the Islamic and strict-Judaistic views are pretty close to the Christian view, which incidentally might help to explain why Islamic and Christian neo-creationisms have very similar polemics (similar reactions towards a similar scientific worldview). There's maya, the central theme of Hinduism and philosophical Buddhism: the universe doesn't exist, it's just an illusion perpetrated by our minds or by Brahman's dreams. There's philosophical materialism which states that the material universe is all there is; as we see later, this deprives the universe of an ontological reason to exist. There is also the supernatural universe of the cultic, pagan, and (to a lesser extent) the dualistic Manichean and Zoroastrian traditions, in which divine interference is such a regular matter that one can trust science to be un-trustworthy.
So that's the playing field. What does Christianity have to offer?
Firstly, Christianity asserts that the material world is both real and meaningful. This really shouldn't be taken for granted. Hinduism supposes that the material world is meaningful, but not real; materialism supposes that the material world is real, but not meaningful. In the former, the world does not exist in the first place, so it cannot be studied; in the latter, there is no point in studying the world (since there is nothing outside the world which states that studying it has a point). Christianity is not merely a reaction to these views.
Within the Christian tradition, God reveals Himself through historical action. We are called to know God by knowing what He has done - and what He does, He does with material objects. When Jesus told us to drink the cup and eat the bread in remembrance of Him, He referred to material wine, material bread. When He fed the 5,000, He did not give them an illusion of being full, but actually created material sustenance. God is not shy to interact with the material world and use it to reveal Himself. This is the second pivotal point of Christianity: The material world serves to reveal God to His created. We do not recognize the Gnostic idea that the material world is evil and the spiritual good; God sees fit to use the material world, and even was incarnated as a man who was certainly material. This point really serves to elaborate the first: this is the meaning which the world has.
Are these points Biblical? Certainly! Job 38-39 and Romans 1, among many other passages, point to the fact that creation reveals its Creator. "But what does all this have to do with science?" you may ask, and rightly. The answer is simple: science is simply how humans know the material world. In fact, I've already arrived at my destination (that science is a very Christian activity) : if the material world reveals God, and science allows us to know the material world, then science allows us to know (part of) the revelation of God, and anything which allows us to know more of the revelation of God must be a Christian activity! But let's explore a little further.
How do I know anything? (I'm not saying that we cannot know anything for sure; but we need to examine how we know things for sure?) We do through consistency of experience. I know, for example, that fire burns. I don't know anyone who walked through a fire unprotected and did not suffer any burns. I have heard of many people who walked through a fire unprotected (or even partially protected) and suffered burns. Therefore I know that fire burns. And that in itself is science. Science is human knowledge of the consistent behaviour of the material world. Science begins when we know that fire burns and dropped objects fall (and break, too) and the faster you throw a ball the higher and farther it goes. Then it continues to knowing that burns happen when too much heat is transferred too fast, and that things fall because of gravity and that a ball theoretically follows a parabolic arch. Finally we learn that because of blackbody radiation (a special case of heat transfer) we can't allow electrons (whose discovery is itself a tremendous journey) to simply wander anywhere they want, and the same gravity that causes balls to fall also makes holes in space so deep that even light (which has a finite speed, who'd've thunk it?) can't escape.
All along, science simply describes, records, and manipulates what we know to be consistent in the world. Balls always fall downward, therefore science can say that gravity exists. And species change, therefore science can say that evolution happens. Science hasn't come up with anything new; science already has its hands full describing the universe which has existed for billions of years already! In other words, science is the observation that material objects behave consistently according to materially provable relationships.
And this is Christian too. Look at Genesis 1. Is God a sun god? or a moon god? or a god of this constellation or that? Is he a big sea monster? Is he man himself? No, God is not anything in creation. Creation is fundamentally separate from His creation, and His creation exists aside from Him (though it cannot exist without His willing it to exist). This means that creation, being real, has its own rules to play by. Compare this to the cultic, pagan traditions. The sun is a god, it can be defeated or appeased or angry or happy; we can dance to bring down rain and don't do this and that or you'll anger the rain dragon! The sun and moon and rain and stars are not just objects, they are nexuses of spiritual power and can very well behave non-naturalistically if you know the right incantations. This is not the Christian view. The Christian view has only one God who is above all created things; therefore, it demythologizes creation and paves the way for science. Again, the Christian understanding is fundamental to science.
"Ah, but what about miracles?" you ask. After all, the Babylonian Jewish trio walked through the fire and were precisely unharmed. But this just points back to what I was saying: that the material universe is used by God to reveal who He is. Now, would miracles exist if science didn't? They wouldn't. If we did not have the scientific understanding that fire burns, we would not be impressed that this once fire didn't burn, and we wouldn't see the revelation of God. If we were living in a world where sometimes fire burns but a significant portion of the time it doesn't, we wouldn't be surprised that the trio escaped unharmed; we'd put it down to luck. See? Without science we wouldn't recognize God.
I hope this adequately demonstrates that science has a very Christian foundation. It's not foundationless, it's not a mere tool, and it is most definitely not anti-Christian or pagan - even when it throws up oddballs like evolution that repel some Christians. Science is Christian through and through, and it is a tragedy for a Christian to call it anything else.
