A Catholicism Discussion

[_Orion]

One question I can't seem to reconcile about Catholicism is what to believe. Or phrased better, what it's okay NOT to believe. For an example - If we are to believe the stats, 80% of US Catholics disagree with the church's teachings on Birth Control. 80%! That's a huge number. I'm not sure how that can be? The Catholic Faith is supposed to be whole. It's supposed to be organic, meaning the whole of the doctrine must be believed and followed. If a teaching troubles you, you must try to understand and learn while respecting and following the teaching. I have a few Catholic friends that have used Assisted Reproductive Technologies to achieve pregnancy. My wife and I have. I think all of my catholic friends use some kind of Birth control if they're not trying to get pregnant. I can't remember the name of the group, but there is a group of Catholics that is Pro-Abortion/Choice. How can this be? It's seems oxymoronic. I've Read the Greeley's and other "liberals" and I must be missing something.

Most folks I encounter say this isn't the case. One's conscience can over-rule a church teaching. I always thought that a properly formed conscience is to be followed - And a properly formed conscience cannot disagree with a church teaching because all the church teachings come directly from God Through Christ Himself. So to claim that your conscience is different to the church's teaching just means you either don't understand the teaching or are ignoring it.

Right from the Book of Catches - Chapter 22.

Other arguments basically talk about the Church "catching up" with the times...or a purely relativist perspective on issues from Homosexuality to Birth Control. I always thought relativism was a Protestant ideal. Nonetheless, I hear that all the time. Not many people openly express that they are choosing to dissent from a teaching thereby denying the church's authority on the subject. I openly say that and am usually told to not take things so seriously..the church will come around yada yada yada...

Part of my self examination deals with these issues. Without getting too personal, I've done some things that are very much against Church Teaching. IVF procedures, Birth Control etc... I'm not sorry for these things. I have not confessed these things. I think they were okay to be done for me and my wife. I understand that I am in direct conflict with Church Teachings. On the occasions that I do go to church, I do indeed feel like a complete hypocrite. That's probably why I'm not attending that often. I'm not interested in pretending to be Catholic when obviously I disagree with so much they teach. The issue gets tricky when the education of our children come into question. I absolutely see the contradiction in what I just said with what I said above. By my saying that I don't agree with the church's teachings on something, I deny the church's authority to teach on that. If I take it a step further, I deny the church has the authority to teach on any number of issues. This is my problem.

I'm pretty sure most priests would tell me not to receive the sacraments given my present situation. At what point does one not belong to the faith any longer? If you disagree with 1 teaching? 2? 10? 20?

I hear the term "liberal" Catholic- Cafeteria Catholic vs. Conservative/Orthodox Catholic. I'm not sure how people reconcile their dissension from Doctrine and Teachings without any thought process. So many groups want to "change" the church...to get it up to speed with the times...When these things are discussed, it seems to disregard the very fundamental principles that the church is based on. These groups want to change Christ's Teachings? They want to change things that are based on an Authority that traces itself to Christ himself?

I've touched on some of these issues in another thread. I think I understand the faith pretty well. I might understand it too well, because I'm not sure after all my years in the church if I'm still Catholic. Reconciling my morals and beliefs don't match the Church...I'm not sure where that leaves me? Like I said in another thread...a lot of what I've learned and am now either re-learning or re-discovering don't add up for me. My wife is pretty adamant about sending our kids to a Catholic School. I can't imagine my kids learning things about morals that I disagree with. My wife seems to think that most Catholic Schools in our area are very liberal so I shouldn't worry about it. I just scratched my head and asked what exactly is a Catholic Education then?

Sorry for the ramble, hopefully, through discussion, some of my questions will become more clear through analysis.

Tom

 

[VOW]

To OB:

I wouldn't worry so much about the teachings at a Parochial school at least at the Primary grades. The kids are learning the BASICS of Religion then, they aren't going to get into any long-winded discussions about morality. The focus in primary grades is to prepare the children for First Communion.

As for the question of Birth Control, I know exactly where you are coming from. My husband and I used it. I didn't think it destroyed my Catholic faith, and I will admit now, it was ignorance on my part. I think for most Catholics who practice birth control, it's out of ignorance. The only thing they know about the Church's teachings on contraception is that the Church says, "Don't."

For me, the moment of truth came when I read a book written by a priest explaining the Vatican Encyclical "On Human Life," in layman's terms. Wow. The anti-birth control rule made so much sense.

I don't think you should stop going to Church. If anything, you NEED the spiritual food of the Eucharist more than ever now. It's good that you've talked to a priest in Confession. My personal opinion is that you should keep talking, and pray for enlightenment by the Holy Spirit.

God isn't pushing you away from the Church, or the Sacraments. He desperately WANTS you to come to Him. It took me a long time to understand completely. Just keep on walking with Him.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[_Orion]

Thanks for the reply VOW.

On the Birth Control isssue, if I may be a cynic for a moment.

Why aren't the priest explaining the issues in Sunday Homilies? Obviously you've done your homework. I've read the encyclical and some other commentary. Am I to believe that the vast majority of Catholics are ignorant on the issue of birth control? And if they are, the parish priests will have a lot to answer for.

If the priest were banging the pulpit, so to speak, the churches would be empty. If Birth Control were presented as a mortal sin and as an important part of being a Catholic, the pews would be empty.

If the pews wouldn't be empty, why isn't that message being pushed? 80% of US catholics ...

My wife and I stopped using the "pill" when we learned of the abortive nature. On those grounds I agree with the teaching.

I think it's being ignored by Catholics simply because it's being ignored by priests out of fear.

This would make an interesting thread by itself.

 

[VOW]

To OB:

Avoided because of fear? Perhaps. My opinion, though, is that there are more important issues that need to be covered. Just trying to motivate people to come to Church is a big topic. I remember one parish priest that was diligent on pressing for reverence of the Eucharist. War and poverty are certainly big topics these days, too.

A homily lasts about what, 15-20 minutes? If your congregation members faithfully attend Mass every Sunday, that means you've only got an hour or so every MONTH to instruct! Perhaps we need to borrow an idea from the Protestants and encourage attendance in Sunday School, for all ages. Some parishes are quite large, though, and where will you find the room to hold all the attendees? Where will the teachers come from?

Rather than saying, "The priests need to give more homilies on the subject," I think perhaps the entire Church needs to work on motivating Catholics to learn more about their faith. The BIGGEST problem Catholic apologists have is clearing up misconceptions about Catholicism, and the most problems seem to come from misguided Catholics!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Wolseley]

I remember an old movie once, where a college kid was explaining his views on some subject to his family; and when he got done, his father said, "And you believe that?"

"Of course," the kid said. "Don't you?"

His mother replied and said, "I don't know, dear---sometimes I think you believe whatever is convenient for you at the time."

And I think that's probably why those 80% of American Catholics, as well as a goodly section of the their clergy choose their "conscience" over Church teaching---it's more convenient at the time.

I make judgements on no one; for me personally, my feeling is if you don't want to take the whole enchilada, then you should find a fellowship where you can; I mean, why belong to the club if you don't agree with the bylaws? Form your own club, where you can make the bylaws.

But that's me. I feel to be a Catholic you have to adhere to the things that Catholic Church teaches and demands, or you're not really a Catholic, you're just calling yourself one; marking time. I speak in generalities, of course, with no specific individual in mind, here or anywhere else.

As far as Humanae Vitae goes, if you read it and the documents and discussions around it and about it since it was issued in 1968, you will discover that Pope Paul VI was greatly concerned that the practice of artificial birth control would lead to a lessening of respect for human life; a general lowering of public morals; an increase in the use of pornography; abuse of women; an increase in out-of-wedlock births; an increase in deaths of women undergoing botched abortions; and an increase in teenage pregnancy.

While the number of factors contributing to these effects are many and varied, so far every one of his fears has come to pass, and his views can really be seen as nothing less than prophetic. For that reason alone, IMHO, artificial birth control is something to avoid. Certainly we should follow our consciences, but consciences are not formed in a void, and they are not issued to you in a box at birth. They have to be developed, and they have to be developed according to something. If the conscience of a Catholic is not developed according to the teachings and beliefs and moral standards of the Catholic Church, then it is obviously being developed according to something else.

And what that "something else" might be is the most frightening aspect. ABC, NBC, and CBS? MTV? Time, Newsweek, and the New York Times? The Wall Street Journal? Universal Studios? Columbia Pictures? Playboy? Hustler? Ellen DeGeneres? Rosie O'Donnell? Brad Pitt? Boyz N the Hood? Ice T? The NFL? The American League East?

There are plenty of substitutes out there today; many voices to choose from, many lifestyles to accept, depending on which ones you listen to and approve of.

And I wouldn't doubt that a good many of them are really quite convenient.

 

[_Orion]

As far as I can remember VOW...the churches I have attended are not utilizing the homily time quite that way at all.

To be fair, they're not doing standup on Sunday Mornings, but they're not exactly "preaching" or "instructing" either.

Fund Raising...Current Events...Some Humor...Gospel commentary...Fund Raising...Guest Speakers...Mission Topics...etc...

I can only speak from my experience in my parish, but there are ample Sunday's available for any sort of doctrine...

With that being said...I totally agree with you and in a perfect world it would be different. I also understand that Sunday Homilies are not the place for Catechism Class either. Either way...certain messages and teachings of the church are not being communicated to the people.

 

[_Orion]

Wolseley,

Thanks for you thoughts. I think I agree with you 100%.

That's the hard part. Formally leaving the church is an option, and if I'm honest with myself right now, the process has begun because I'm not really an active Catholic anymore anyway.

Your post was thought provoking...thanks...

 

[VOW]

To OB:

Before you give another thought to leaving the Church, ask yourself one thing: can you live without the Real Presence?

To me, that's what it boils down to. That is why I continued to educate myself, to truly understand what the Church was trying to tell me about Birth Control. The Catholic Church is the ONLY one with the Real Presence.

And I NEED that.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[LilyLamb]

I won't address the other things you mentioned cause VOW and Wols did an excellent job of that

But I do want to address ...

what exactly is a Catholic Education then?

For me, when my girls were in Catholic school I felt that they were "safe" from some of the immoral things that take place in too many (not all) public schools. Granted there were still "cliques" in spite of the uniforms (funny the things they come up with to establish someone being better than another when they're all wearing uniforms). But the overwhelming concept that I liked was that ALL of the children were treated equally by the teachers and were taught on a more professional level - considering that these teachers are generally underpaid according to their fellow-public school professionals you have to wonder why they do it - most do it cause they "like to teach" which makes a world of a difference when you've got a very talkative child. In public school the active child is often (not always) ridiculed, ignored, avoided or encouraged to be put on ritalyn - in a parochial school they are "worked with" - encouraged, praised, rewarded for good efforts etc etc The teacher/student ratio is better in parochial schools. The lessons are geared around the Bible, the Cathecism, holy days (and the list goes on). Catholic students can PRAY in school - without any flak from the A.C.L.U. They often attend Mass during the school week.

There are just so many advantages ... I strongly encourage you to send them - if you are able to - and maybe by the time they graduate you may have worked out all the questions you have.

I have to throw in a little side note here. In Kindergarten my DD had "Show and Tell" ... one day her "Show and Tell" took place the night after her father left our family for another woman (and her two little girls). Guess what she told ... yep, shortly after arriving home I got a phone call from one of the mothers whose DD was in my DD's class (she came over later bearing gifts for the children). Then I got a call from the Principal - Sister was very concerned about the girls being able to stay in school and assured me that they would work out any problems with the tuition if need be. Then I got a visit from Father and two Sisters with food and gifts. (He left us three days before Christmas).

I did end up needing to "work" for the tuition - I went to the school - set up a playpen for my 1 1/2 year old son and tutored the students in the computer room. Then I would go over to the convent with my son and set up the playpen while I "cleaned" the convent - trust me when I say that convents are NOT dirty - it was very light work. I also gave my time to the church by teaching 6th and 7th grade CCD.

When you send your children to a parochial school - you are sending them into a warm, loving, family environment.

Hope that helps with that question

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by VOW
For me, the moment of truth came when I read a book written by a priest explaining the Vatican Encyclical "On Human Life," in layman's terms. Wow. The anti-birth control rule made so much sense.

Can you summarize the part that made so much sense? I really want to understand this, but so far, I can't. I know you mentioned the artifical thing, but I equate withdrawal by the male as being artificial in a sense.

 

[_Orion]

Transubstantiation...probably another good stand alone thread.

I remember sitting in church in the 5th or so grade...and later as an altar boy...watching mass and attempting to analyze what was happening. The consecration and Transubstantiation.

After all these years, it still doesn't quite add up for me...

I remember being afraid of drinking "blood"...I'm no long afraid per se...but I'm not sure if it's really blood anyway...

 

[_Orion]

LilyLamb,

All of your points are well taken. Most of them I have accepted as an advantage to Catholic school.

Religion aside, Catholic Schools have a great educational system.

Like I said before...we haven't decided...but thanks for your insight

 

[_Orion]

Withdrawl is Birth Control in the eyes of the church...

You cannot seperate the procreative aspect to the "marital act"...if you do...it's wrong. period .

And with NFP ... you're supposedly "open" to the procreative aspect...so it's not wrong...

a fine line? I think I'd say yes.

 

[KC Catholic]

OB-

Thanks for sharing your situation with us. It's very interesting to see where you are at and the feelings you have about the teachings of the church. You are in my prayers and God will lead you.

I am a 5th year convert. I argued with my wife for about 7 years before I had a "Saul-Paul" moment and started on my path home. The Eucharist is what hooked me and the Holy Spirit did the rest.

Anyway...what I wanted to say was that it is NOT easy to be Catholic. Most every one of our teachings goes against the grain of society. Jesus went against the grain of society at the time of his ministry. That's inspiring to me.

Christ told us that the path to heaven was through him and it would be a narrow gate:

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

To me...the teachings of the Catholic Church are the "orange cones" in the path to heaven. They merge me away from the societial pressures and closer to Christ.

And its a power/control issue. I really feel living a Christian life as a Catholic demands I turn over my freewill to God on everything and I am a control freak! If I can't fix it I give up, rather than turning to God. Its something I confess and pray about regularly - to release that "control" I think I have and let the master have it.

Its not easy, I hear my human side - prompted by the devil say "Come on, you can do it and you don't need anyone else." So I pray alot.

So being Catholic is about sacraficing everything, going aginst the grain, stepping outside our "comfort zone" and letting that cross rub you a little more often.

Anyway, just my thoughs. You and ALL Catholics who are struggling are in my prayers. Look to the cross for strenght and look to us here for prayers and conversation.

Peace be with you.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

OB-

Sperm can live inside the female for a week. If we are not allowed to withdraw, does NFP accomodate this fact somehow?

Thanks!

 

[VOW]

To Souljah:

Wolseley summed this up in a nutshell, very nicely, I might add.

As far as Humanae Vitae goes, if you read it and the documents and discussions around it and about it since it was issued in 1968, you will discover that Pope Paul VI was greatly concerned that the practice of artificial birth control would lead to a lessening of respect for human life; a general lowering of public morals; an increase in the use of pornography; abuse of women; an increase in out-of-wedlock births; an increase in deaths of women undergoing botched abortions; and an increase in teenage pregnancy.

I started out my married life as a bride in Germany. My husband was stationed in the Army there, and he flew home, we got married, and then I went back with him. I didn't consider myself to have lived a sheltered life (I spent three years at UCLA), but I was completely boggled by the plethora of pornography in Germany. Whatever you can think of, they've got a picture of it! Prostitution is legal, and if you want a pop-your-eyes-out education, go down to the train station (Bahnhof) in Frankfurt.

Actually, observing military life you think would be an excellent documentary for birth control. Many GIs marry young and immediately start producing babies. Fluctuations in the DeutschMark would cause all kinds of financial havok, and many families had to be sent home because the GI paycheck just wouldn't stretch far enough to support everyone. The beer flowed more freely than water, and the isolation of being overseas, the money problems and alcohol just added to the mess and there was a lot of abuse.

At the time I observed this, I figured the solution should be birth control. But twenty-some years later, I realize that wouldn't have helped. It was all a lack of respect for LIFE. Kids too young HAD to get married and play grown-up. They HAD to have kids, to prove their adulthood. Then the kids suffered, from not having their basic needs provided for. The parents suffered, from being clobbered with the reality of isolation, of budgeting, of responsibilities.

You can't just talk about birth control as a single entity. I guess THAT is the main message I got from this book. It goes to how you raise your children, how they have to learn respect: for themselves, for their parents, for authority, for others, and for God. And they also need to be educated with respect for SEXUALITY. Sex is NOT a toy. When it is TREATED like one, then you open the door for the abuses.

That's what I saw, with the pornography in Germany: SEX is a toy, entertainment, a game to play with your body and whoever else is handy. That's what I saw with the kids who got married too young, sex is a toy to show everyone just how "grown up" you are. That's the message that Madison Avenue wants you to receive: sex is a toy, and if we dangle it in front of your face, then you will spend more money on the things we're trying to sell. Entertainment is all about sex.

Look at the divorce rate.

Look at the rising number of abortions.

Look at the abandoned and neglected and abused children.

When cheap, reliable, readily-available birth control came out in the Sixties, it was supposed to SOLVE society's problems. Yet look at the toll!

Now look at the increase of sexually transmitted diseases!

And you're right, withdrawal by the male is artificial. The "natural family planning" doesn't accommodate that as a method. The ONLY choices you have in NFP are "normal" sex and abstinence.

I've rambled enough, and I don't know if I've managed to communicate anything at all. It's a very complex situation, and it's not something that can be conveyed in just a few sentences.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by s0uljah
OB-

Sperm can live inside the female for a week. If we are not allowed to withdraw, does NFP accomodate this fact somehow?

Thanks!

Well...with NFP you aren't supposed to withdrawl. Your option is to track your wife's fertility, tempature and mucas consistancy. If the signs are there that she is indeed fertile and you don't want to take the chance on getting pregnant - you simply have to find other ways to share intimacy.

This is where the ladies win () cause we finally have to do that thing of "just cuddling" or go for walks, etc. There is other non-physical ways to show your love.

The other option: "Step boys and try your luck at chance and see if the big man above has plans you weren't counting on!" Just kidding - but you have to trust God.

 

[_Orion]

s0ul,

I think with NFP it's all about timing...

If you say 1 week, I believe you..just make sure that week doesn't overlap with a fertile day...or so the theory goes.

NFP is not a way to have non-procreative sex whenever you choose...it's a way to have sex and be open to conception when the chance of conception is at its lowest point.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

VOW-

I lived in Frankfurt too! For three years, from the age 10-13.

I know what you mean over there...and I admit I was a hellion. Drinking, smoking, fighting, vandalism, pr0n, you name it.

But anyway, that all makes sense from a standpoint of society as a whole, thanks. But if a married couple waits till marriage to have sex, how do those problems effect them?

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by VOW

I don't think you should stop going to Church. If anything, you NEED the spiritual food of the Eucharist more than ever now. It's good that you've talked to a priest in Confession. My personal opinion is that you should keep talking, and pray for enlightenment by the Holy Spirit.

I was going to stay away from posting, but then I read this and I just have to comment.

Perhaps I've misundertood what Vow meant, but if she meant that it would be ok for you to receive the Eucharist while living in a state of mortal sin, she is wrong. While it is true that we all NEED the Eucharist, partaking of the Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin only adds the sin of sacrilege to your soul.

While I hate to judge people, I would also be remiss in warning people of the possibility of falling even deeper into a state of mortal sin. The use of artificial birth control is grave matter, and if undertaken unrepentantly and knowingly against the teaching of the Church, the "requirements" of a mortal sin are met.

1. The sin must be of grave matter...

CCC 2370 Every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act (i.e. the birth control pill, the IUD), or in its accomplishment (i.e. the condom, the diaphragm), or in the development of it's natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil.

2. The sin must be done with full knowledge and deliberate consent...

OB said:
I've done some things that are very much against Church Teaching. IVF procedures, Birth Control etc... I'm not sorry for these things. I have not confessed these things. I think they were okay to be done for me and my wife. I understand that I am in direct conflict with Church Teachings.

How does this pertain to the Eucharist?

CCC 1457: Anyone who is aware of having commited a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession.

Therefore I would recommend to OB that he attend Mass but NOT receive the Eucharist. The Church prohibits the reception of the Eucharist to those who knowingly are in mortal sin not because the Church deems it a necessary or worthy punishment but because it is a further sin against the Body of Christ. The Church's aim is protection rather than condemnation, though it may look like the opposite to those so chastised.

OB, I can't tell you whether you are Catholic or not. Technically, everytime we sin, we fail at being Catholic because we have rejected God to gratify ourselves. The difference though is when one recognizes that sin that they repent immediately.

The Knights of Columbus speak of what is called "practical Catholicism" and it revolves around obedience to the Church and Her teachings. Can you accept that the Catholic Church has been given the authority to teach on Jesus Christ's behalf? Basically, that is what it boils down to.

As for souljah's questions about NFP, check out the following link: http://www.ccli.org