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A Biblical and Contextual Explanation of John 3:16, 2Peter 3:9 and 1Timothy 2:4.

Skala

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So no, even when looking at the Greek word for "all" I still do not find it convincing. And apparently neither did the translation committees.

The translation doesn't need to be any different for "all" to mean one of its definitions. It can simply exist by itself in the sentence for one of its definitions to be employed. In other words, it doesn't have to say verbatim "all kinds" for it to mean "all kinds". Why? Because it's built into the definition of the word itself.

God's love for the world is tied to the thought that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish. It is tied to people, and His love for them.

The phrase "whosoever believes" simply means "all who believe" or "all the believing ones", etc.

So, the verse tells us that God showed his love to the world by sending Christ. To do what? To save everyone? Nope. To save "whoever believes" ie, "to save all the believers"

As much as you want it to, the verse does not say that God showed his love by sending Christ to save (or try to save) every single individual. Believers only are in view here.

That's probably why the Greek experts said that "kosmos" in John 3:16 refers to believers only:

Kosmos - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
(see the end of the definition)

What the Bible actually says:

For God so loved the world He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes (a particular group) in Him will not perish...

What you think the verse says:

For God so loved the world He gave his only begotten son to try to save everyone...
 
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Bluelion

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and here i thought God said to yield to elders in the church, oh wait he did say that, now you have to say a panel which translated this bible and not just one Bible but many Bibles and many panels of translators with many degree and years of forum training, and also with God guiding them did not translate the words correctly, but that you with how many biblical degrees? and reading Greek, and not just Greek but older world common Greek. no better than all these people? Right:D all these people all these translations got it wrong and you are right, right;)

You sir are preaching against the word of God. If its not a rule it should be that you can not call a credited translations false and with error. You are saying the world of God errors, but doing it under the cover of the translations error.
john 3:16
KJV

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

NKJV

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

NASB

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

NIV

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


You still have not adress who the world is if not everyone in it.
 
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mikedsjr

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I personally dislike there are so many Bibles today, but it is what it is.

Bluelion, I'm curious if you translate "God did not send his son into the world" to mean "God did not send his son into everyone"? I'm not trying trick you. What i am doing is seeing if you define "world" differently here and why/why-not? What is it that makes the use the way u see it?
 
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Bluelion

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I personally dislike there are so many Bibles today, but it is what it is.

Bluelion, I'm curious if you translate "God did not send his son into the world" to mean "God did not send his son into everyone"? I'm not trying trick you. What i am doing is seeing if you define "world" differently here and why/why-not? What is it that makes the use the way u see it?

I take the world to mean just that, He was not speaking of the system of the world, as that is satan's, but used the world to make up all the people. The world is humans, He did not come to condemn it but to save it. I believe it was said about Jesus He is the savior of the world and also He took on the sins of the world. Meaning humans for those who accept it. Its written God is willing that none should die but all repent and be saved. Jesus paid the price it is a gift offered to everyone, but not everyone takes it. why? The bible says they love sin more than God. They don't want to change, they don't want the law. They want to do there own will and refuse to lay down their own.

Just how I see it.
 
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twin1954

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I take the world to mean just that, He was not speaking of the system of the world, as that is satan's, but used the world to make up all the people. The world is humans, He did not come to condemn it but to save it. I believe it was said about Jesus He is the savior of the world and also He took on the sins of the world. Meaning humans for those who accept it. Its written God is willing that none should die but all repent and be saved. Jesus paid the price it is a gift offered to everyone, but not everyone takes it. why? The bible says they love sin more than God. They don't want to change, they don't want the law. They want to do there own will and refuse to lay down their own.

Just how I see it.

The problem is that how you see it denies the truth that the word world means many things according to its context. You are inserting your assumption into the text rather than seeking to understand the text according to its context and the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole.

If, as you contend, God's loves every person in the world then what good is His love? You actually make the love of God a meaningless emotion.

If you can show us why and how the word must mean every person in the world. Instead of just repeating it means everybody, it means everybody, it means everybody why not tell us why it must mean everybody. Give us an actual argument for your assertion.

Do you deny that the word kosmos has different meanings and connotations according to the context? Prove it.

Repeating the same thing over and over again is a sign of a weak position. You are the one making the claim that it must mean all men so the burden of proof is on you.

How is it that God loves every person in the world but clearly says that there are some that He hates? Psa. 5:5, Prov. 6:16-19, Rom. 9:13.

Please give us the resolution to this apparent contradiction.
 
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DeaconDean

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but used the world to make up all the people. The world is humans, He did not come to condemn it but to save it.

I hate to say it, but there is a flaw in this.

In the first place, to whom was the Lord sent to?

Was He sent to His people, or to the "world"?

Secondly, He gave His life as ransom for _______?

The world? Or, the "many"?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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mikedsjr

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I take the world to mean just that, He was not speaking of the system of the world, as that is satan's, but used the world to make up all the people. The world is humans, He did not come to condemn it but to save it. I believe it was said about Jesus He is the savior of the world and also He took on the sins of the world. Meaning humans for those who accept it. Its written God is willing that none should die but all repent and be saved. Jesus paid the price it is a gift offered to everyone, but not everyone takes it. why? The bible says they love sin more than God. They don't want to change, they don't want the law. They want to do there own will and refuse to lay down their own.

Just how I see it.

I can agree 'world' means humans, in a sense that Christ did not die for any animals or plants, so Christ wasn't born from a wilderness beast outside civilization. The region of our planet where humanity exists can be termed world or, depending on ones knowledge, can be a geographical region where they know humanity lives. Is that how you mean humans/world above?

But im still unsure of your meaning of the text, so can you complete John 3:17 by replacing "into the world" with what you mean?
 
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Bluelion

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I hate to say it, but there is a flaw in this.

In the first place, to whom was the Lord sent to?

Was He sent to His people, or to the "world"?

Secondly, He gave His life as ransom for _______?

The world? Or, the "many"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

so your saying Jesus is not said to be the savior of the world? so your saying he did not come into the "the chosen to judge them" but to save"the chosen" hmm why would he condemn what is already His? but He said world.

Are you saying God is not willing that none should die? certainly sounds like God offered Him self as ransom for the world if it would accept it. Maybe God did not Mean He wants everyone saved. he meant something else. Tell me just how much of the word will you change?
 
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twin1954

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so your saying Jesus is not said to be the savior of the world? so your saying he did not come into the "the chosen to judge them" but to save"the chosen" hmm why would he condemn what is already His? but He said world.

Are you saying God is not willing that none should die? certainly sounds like God offered Him self as ransom for the world if it would accept it. Maybe God did not Mean He wants everyone saved. he meant something else. Tell me just how much of the word will you change?
Why do you insist on putting words in the mouths of your opponents but cry foul when you think it has been done to you? You have been given answers to all of your so-called objections. Instead of dealing with them you just keep repeating a mantra and spewing out the same old garbage. Is that really the way actual debate works? Not at all. Man up and actually refute our arguments instead of hiding behind twists, false accusations, straw men, and ad hominems.
 
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Bluelion

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Why do you insist on putting words in the mouths of your opponents but cry foul when you think it has been done to you? You have been given answers to all of your so-called objections. Instead of dealing with them you just keep repeating a mantra and spewing out the same old garbage. Is that really the way actual debate works? Not at all. Man up and actually refute our arguments instead of hiding behind twists, false accusations, straw men, and ad hominems.

see the question marks those are question not statements, Read an English book.
 
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twin1954

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see the question marks those are question not statements, Read an English book.

So you contend that they are not rhetorical questions? They sure do seem to be. It is pretty obvious that you weren't looking for answers but asking in order to make what Dean said to be something other than what he said.

BTW there is more than one way to ask a question. Read an English book and you will find that fact to be true. ;)
 
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Bluelion

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So you contend that they are not rhetorical questions? They sure do seem to be. It is pretty obvious that you weren't looking for answers but asking in order to make what Dean said to be something other than what he said.

BTW there is more than one way to ask a question. Read an English book and you will find that fact to be true. ;)

might surprise you but you can not tell a person what they feel, think, or mean, You are not God. Its interesting you can pick up on my tone and facial expression from words on page, the fact is unless i am swearing at you there is not emotion in the words unless i describe it in the words.

how about you stop following me around and posting to me and I'll stop posting to you and we can just say we disagree and go our separate ways?
 
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tall73

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I have been pretty busy as of late. I will try to respond more thoroughly at a later time. But I wanted to post just a quick response to part of this while I was thinking of it.


What the Bible actually says:

For God so loved the world He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes (a particular group) in Him will not perish...

What you think the verse says:

For God so loved the world He gave his only begotten son to try to save everyone...


World and believers here are not synonyms, which we can tell from the rest of the passage.

God loved the world so He sent His son. Those who believe do not perish. These are a sub-set of the world. It never says that the world is limited only to those who believe.

In fact, if we plug in your definitions verse 19 makes no sense at all.

19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

If we render it the way you want light has come to believers, and they loved darkness rather than light.

There are two groups pictured among those in the world--those who loved darkness, and those who come into the light.
 
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tall73

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The translation doesn't need to be any different for "all" to mean one of its definitions. It can simply exist by itself in the sentence for one of its definitions to be employed. In other words, it doesn't have to say verbatim "all kinds" for it to mean "all kinds". Why? Because it's built into the definition of the word itself.

Now you changed the goal posts. You said that if there are multiple definitions then we need to go to context. I pointed out that the translation committees did not seem impressed with your take on the context, because they did not render it that. It can mean multiple things in Greek. Though you have not shown any usage of this type with the term people. And there is a more direct way to say it if he wanted to indicate kinds.
But now you seem to be suggesting that because it can mean multiple things in Greek it can in English too? No, that is not the case. They did not render it all "kinds" of men in English because the context does not support it.

The context does not have a listing of various kinds of men. It mentions all men, then it mentions kings who have influence over all men. It does not mention all "kinds" of men.

The context also mentions Jesus being the mediator between God and men, broadening the scope, and the ransom for all.
 
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Sovereign Grace

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If God so loved the world, and all the world encompasses every human, past, present, and future, then what about those who died lost before Jesus came in the flesh? If they have no shot, then how can "God so loved the world", include them. If He is not willing that any should perish, then why are they perishing?


What about those in third-world countries who died never hearing of Christ? Did Christ propitiate their sins, only to see them die never knowing He came in the flesh? As it states in Romans 10, "how can they believe in Him whom they never heard"? And one last question....

If Christ died for everyone w/o exception, if He propitiated their sins, then how can they stand before Him guilty, seeing He appeased God's wrath. That's a double payment...He paid and they pay for their sins. These are serious questions that need answered in this nearly 2,000 years debate...

In John 10, Christ said He was the good Shepherd and the Shepherd would lay His life down for His sheep. In Ezekiel 34, you get the picture of what He would do for them. We are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people...
 
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Avid

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If God so loved the world, and all the world encompasses every human, past, present, and future, then what about those who died lost before Jesus came in the flesh? If they have no shot, then how can "God so loved the world", include them. If He is not willing that any should perish, then why are they perishing?
The issue was handled early in this discussion - on the first page here..

The sin of Adam was upon every person who had lived. The sin of Adam was imputed to them at their birth, and the death sentence was written...

...God had legal issues to settle as well as spiritual issues. His Son, Jesus Christ our LORD, was a payment for sin, but much more...
Use that little symbol in the top of my quote to read the whole post on this subject.

What about those in third-world countries who died never hearing of Christ? Did Christ propitiate their sins, only to see them die never knowing He came in the flesh? As it states in Romans 10, "how can they believe in Him whom they never heard"? And one last question...
AFRICA had the gospel about 14 centuries before Christian nations even knew the Americas we out there! Since then, Millions have been sent and spent to bring the Gospel to them. They are without excuse, not only because they rejected this as a continent, or as a nation, but they have fled to the darkest corners of the planet in order to insulate themselves from it!

These people would not have as bad a time in the great judgment as someone who had plenty of opportunity, and still rejected it. In the western world, peopel would be of the WORST people EVER, because they had easy access and ample opportunity to submit to God, but chose to reject God, His Son, and the drawing of His Holy Spirit, in order to remain in their sin.

Read the scriptures and pray to the LORD for understanding.

If Christ died for everyone w/o exception, if He propitiated their sins, then how can they stand before Him guilty, seeing He appeased God's wrath. That's a double payment...He paid and they pay for their sins. These are serious questions that need answered in this nearly 2,000 years debate...
It is a mistake that seems to be more prevalent than it should be. The rest of the scripture says that it is for God's elect from every nation and every time that He has done this.

... God addressed this in His word. Everyone that comes to God through Christ must recognized how they are saved, and that it is not just that they decided one day to be a completely different type of person...
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Romans 9
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
It is very common that people let this get to them, and I have heard a number of them say how angry they were at God for this. It was at that point they had to deal with God's sovereignty.
Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information, and religions destroy spirituality.
Dr. Michael Ellner
I have earthen vessels in my house that were made to be dishonored. They are dishonored regularly, and there is a use for them. It would be very unusual to dishonor a vessel made for honor. It will likely never happen that I would use a vessel made for dishonor for the purpose of the most honored vessels.

I am going to assume the same thing happens in your house as well. If you think there is something wrong with YOU deciding which vessels are fitted for dishonor, and using them that way, then you should explain the thinking that takes away your sovereignty in your own home. Which of the earthen vessels will complain to you of the job they must do? Which will have an argument that you will accept on the subject?

Our LORD said that we should STRIVE to enter in at the STRAIT GATE, for many will SEEK to, but not be able. What do we think it means to STRIVE?
Strive
verb
to struggle or exert oneself vigorously; to try hard.
to make strenuous, tenacious efforts toward a goal.
to contend in opposition; to battle; to compete.

Synonyms:
try, labor, toil, struggle, fight, contend, bear, contest, cope.
It is not an easy thing to turn from self and trust God. It is simple enough to say, and simple enough to understand, but doing it is not easy.
All your powers and faculties are so corrupt in your natural state that, except you be purged from dead works, you cannot serve the living God.
Joseph Alleine (1634-1668)
Again, the little blue symbol in the top of that quote lets you jump to the full post I made.

In John 10, Christ said He was the good Shepherd and the Shepherd would lay His life down for His sheep. In Ezekiel 34, you get the picture of what He would do for them. We are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people...
This does reference only those saved by God for His purpose. He contrasts those who are wicked, rebellious, and never come to Christ, nor are ever obedient, as being LOST and without hope.
 
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twin1954

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The issue was handled early in this discussion - on the first page here..


Use that little symbol in the top of my quote to read the whole post on this subject.


AFRICA had the gospel about 14 centuries before Christian nations even knew the Americas we out there! Since then, Millions have been sent and spent to bring the Gospel to them. They are without excuse, not only because they rejected this as a continent, or as a nation, but they have fled to the darkest corners of the planet in order to insulate themselves from it!

These people would not have as bad a time in the great judgment as someone who had plenty of opportunity, and still rejected it. In the western world, peopel would be of the WORST people EVER, because they had easy access and ample opportunity to submit to God, but chose to reject God, His Son, and the drawing of His Holy Spirit, in order to remain in their sin.

Read the scriptures and pray to the LORD for understanding.


It is a mistake that seems to be more prevalent than it should be. The rest of the scripture says that it is for God's elect from every nation and every time that He has done this.

Again, the little blue symbol in the top of that quote lets you jump to the full post I made.


This does reference only those saved by God for His purpose. He contrasts those who are wicked, rebellious, and never come to Christ, nor are ever obedient, as being LOST and without hope.

Convicted1 is a Calvinist. Welcome my friend and brother. :wave:
 
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PrincetonGuy

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A Biblical and Contextual Explanation of John 3:16, 2Peter 3:9 and 1Timothy 2:4.




These are the three passages of the Scriptures most used by free-will works religionists as arrows to strike at the heart of Calvinism. Though they have been answered more than can be counted they are still shot at us as though we cannot explain them or give a Biblical response to them.... \

I do not believe that a thread should be started using false characterizations of Christians with whom on disagrees. Before the Protestant Reformation, John 3:16, 2Peter 3:9 and 1Timothy 2:4 were universally understood by Christians to teach what Arminian Christians teach today. Neither these early Christians nor Arminian Christians today interpret these verses or any other part of the Bible to teach justification or salvation by works. Furthermore, pejoratively using the word “religionists” instead of “Christians” is not only inaccurate, it is insulting and demeaning.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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If God so loved the world, and all the world encompasses every human, past, present, and future, then what about those who died lost before Jesus came in the flesh? If they have no shot, then how can "God so loved the world", include them. If He is not willing that any should perish, then why are they perishing?


What about those in third-world countries who died never hearing of Christ? Did Christ propitiate their sins, only to see them die never knowing He came in the flesh? As it states in Romans 10, "how can they believe in Him whom they never heard"? And one last question....

If Christ died for everyone w/o exception, if He propitiated their sins, then how can they stand before Him guilty, seeing He appeased God's wrath. That's a double payment...He paid and they pay for their sins. These are serious questions that need answered in this nearly 2,000 years debate...

In John 10, Christ said He was the good Shepherd and the Shepherd would lay His life down for His sheep. In Ezekiel 34, you get the picture of what He would do for them. We are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a peculiar people...

Our Bibles are divided into two parts, the “Old Testament,” and the “New Testament” because these two parts of the Bible are about two very different “testaments” or “covenants,” the covenant of Law, and the covenant of grace. By grace Christ Jesus died on the cross for all of mankind, but the benefit of that death is individually realized through faith. That is why the gospel is preached—that is, it is preached that the hearers of it, whoever they may be, may believe it and be saved.

Eph 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. (KJV)
 
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