A Baha'i's view of atonement

LoAmmi · Jan 15, 2014

WoodrowX2 said:
I look at it as being similar to trying to go from North Dakota to Hawaii. If I don't at least go to the airport I am going to stay in North Dakota. I am not being punished by being denied a trip to Hawaii, I have made the choice not to take the first steps to get there.

North Dakota isn't suddenly going to catch fire and become a painful place of eternal torture though. Just temporal torture.

dlamberth · Jan 15, 2014

bling said:
God is Love, but loving does not take place for those that do not accept God's Love (it is a two way transaction).

I find myself looking at and wondering how a person can Love God and not accept His Love. I don't see how one can separate the two.

What I wonder about though is how a person can Love God, accept His Love yet at the same time not Love those around them and treat them as such.

.

gord44 · Jan 15, 2014

dlamberth said:
I find myself looking at and wondering how a person can Love God and not accept His Love. I don't see how one can separate the two.

What I wonder about though is how a person can Love God, accept His Love yet at the same time not Love those around them and treat them as such.

.

I imagine bling, being a Christian, believes one can only accept G-d's love if they accept Jesus.

light upon light · Jan 15, 2014

dlamberth said:
He doesn't do that. That's an old belief that needs to be thrown away and discarded.

.

This is my opinion, not official doctrine. But I feel it is well supported by the Baha'i teachings, from the evidence from Near Death experiences, and from logical reasoning.

In my view the not believing in God is itself the punishment.

It's not really a punishment, more just a state that is as a whole not as joyful as believing in the God who loves you. Which is not as joyful as seeing that love from God in your life and not just believing in it.

light upon light · Jan 15, 2014

dlamberth said:
What I wonder about though is how a person can Love God, accept His Love yet at the same time not Love those around them and treat them as such.

.

It is the same exact thing.

As He said

"Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

smaneck · Jan 15, 2014

light upon light said:
This is my opinion, not official doctrine. But I feel it is well supported by the Baha'i teachings, from the evidence from Near Death experiences, and from logical reasoning.

In my view the not believing in God is itself the punishment.

It is logical because from the Baha'i standpoint heaven is nearness to God and hell is remoteness from Him. If one doesn't believe in God being 'near' Him would be rather difficult. However, I don't believe in an eternal anything other than an eternal soul. I believe we will continue to grow and develop in the next world.

smaneck · Jan 15, 2014

bling said:
This has to do with (Parenting 101):

The Bible teaches us and we can learn from our own experience disciplining helps in the following ways:

Sorry, I paid more attention to Dr. Spock than I did to the Bible when it came to parenting. My observation is that evangelicals have done an atrocious job that. Just check and see how many abused children come from fundamentalist households. Likewise prisons are full of their offspring.

Discipline is seen as a deterrent not only for the person that transgressed, but also for the other children that might consider doing the same transgression in the future.

If a child truly repents then the 'deterrent' is already there. If discipline is being handed out as a warning to other children, then it is not the sake of the child being disciplined.

As you know parents that do not see to the disciplining of their own children are described as delinquent parents (unconcerned with the behavior of their children).

Once again, the purpose of such discipline is to bring about repentance. If repentance is already there, it is useless.

The way most offences are measured is by the amount of discipline (or punishment) that will follow. If there is no discipline associated with the offence, how do you know which is the greater offence? The fines or prison time you pay for a civil offence tells you the significance of the offence.

Sorry, but the rewards and punishments necessary to keep order in society are not the same as parental discipline. Parental discipline must *always* be corrective and its concern should always before the welfare of the child. Society, however, must concern primarily with the welfare of the community and if that means harming an individual, that is what has to be.

There is also the relieve that comes with: doing the time for the crime. It helps to put it behind you and move on.

Yes, there is. The question is does not that relief undermine the repentance? In my experience it does. The more you beat a kid the more you have to beat them to get them to behave.

God is also just/fair, so everyone (all Gods children) will be treated equally.

If God treated us all 'equally' He would have given us all equal gifts, equal opportunity, etc. That just didn't happened. God's justice cannot be measured in human terms.

smaneck · Jan 15, 2014

bling said:
God is Love, but loving does not take place for those that do not accept God's Love (it is a two way transaction).

God has more ways of expressing His love than the one way you believe in. That's my whole point.

light upon light · Jan 15, 2014

smaneck said:
It is logical because from the Baha'i standpoint heaven is nearness to God and hell is remoteness from Him. If one doesn't believe in God being 'near' Him would be rather difficult. However, I don't believe in an eternal anything other than an eternal soul. I believe we will continue to grow and develop in the next world.

Certainly.

I think the importance of this world is that, in a world where God isn't blatently obvious, we can choose to love God (which is simply another word for loving truth, loving kindness, loving all people), or we can choose to allow ourselves to fall into self-centeredness, anger and hostility, tribalistic thinking, frivolous wastes of time, and even hatred).

I don't see any distinction between an atheist who is genuinely committed to truth and charity and justice, and someone who is committed to a positive understanding of God.

Nor do I see a distinction between a spiteful, prideful, believer in "God" who looks down on others and disseminates division and discord, and a self-centered atheist who shoves others aside to get his. The words don't really matter, only the hearts and actions matter.

Every indication from near death experiences, Baha'i teachings, other religious teachings, etc. is that when we die many of the veils that make it harder to "see" God here are lifted away.

Once that happens, we will know very clearly the measure of how we have lived and loved.

It is better to start on the project of being loving through intention and action "here", than spend our lives doing something else, or even the opposite, and then start out "there" having wasted a lifetime.

dlamberth · Jan 15, 2014

light upon light said:
In my view the not believing in God is itself the punishment.

It's not really a punishment, more just a state that is as a whole not as joyful as believing in the God who loves you. Which is not as joyful as seeing that love from God in your life and not just believing in it.

I don't see the Dalai Lama as being punished.

And, I just don't see the idea of not believing in God as punishment, even in the way you describe. What I do see are leaning lessens.

I know for a fact that there are a lot of folks out there who have a perspective of life that makes them just as joyful and happy in life as any Lover of God is, yet they are not themselves believers in God.

There seems to be something deeper going with in the Human psyche. To my way of thinking, it's an awakening. Belief in God and the joy that trajectory brings a person is but one of many ways towards our awakening.

I find myself totally rejecting one true wayism, in any form.

.

dlamberth · Jan 15, 2014

smaneck said:
God has more ways of expressing His love than the one way you believe in. That's my whole point.

This!!!

.

light upon light · Jan 15, 2014

bling said:
God is Love, but loving does not take place for those that do not accept God's Love (it is a two way transaction).

The Baha'i Faith states it this way:

"Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee."

Elsewhere in the Baha'i writings it is made clear that God's love is always present like sunlight, but some people have placed themselves behind a barrier that blocks some of most of the light.

light upon light · Jan 15, 2014

dlamberth said:
I don't see the Dalai Lama as being punished.

I don't either. Baha'is recognize that the Gautama Buddha was a Teacher of Reality like Jesus, by the way. That's why I stated that "God" and "Love" and "Truth" and "Reality" are synonyms.

Someone who is devoted to reality, is devoted to God. Someone who is in opposition to universal love, while believing in "God" is in fact far from the reality of God.

I know for a fact that there are a lot of folks out there who have a perspective of life that makes them just as joyful and happy in life as any Lover of God is, yet they are not themselves believers in God.

It's not really "belief in God". It's more of a faith in life, in love, an internal facing towards the Source of life, alignment with it, dedication to a lived ideal.

Whether or not someone "believes" in "God" or not isn't the issue.

There seems to be something deeper going with in the Human psyche. To my way of thinking, it's an awakening. Belief in God and the joy that trajectory brings a person is but one of many ways towards our awakening.

I find myself totally rejecting one true wayism, in any form.

.

There is one Essence to reality but there are many words to describe it and many ways to approach it. The blind men and the elephants, all that.

I use "God" as a synonym for the unknowable Essence, the Absolute from which all relative things emerge.

dlamberth · Jan 15, 2014

light upon light said:
It's not really "belief in God". It's more of a faith in life, in love, an internal facing towards the Source of life, alignment with it, dedication to a lived ideal.

Whether or not someone "believes" in "God" or not isn't the issue.

YES!!!...That's it in a nutshell! Thank You!!

.

dazed · Jan 15, 2014

light upon light said:
The Baha'i Faith states it this way:

"Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee."

Elsewhere in the Baha'i writings it is made clear that God's love is always present like sunlight, but some people have placed themselves behind a barrier that blocks some of most of the light.

But isn't God omnipotent? He certainly can make His love reaches all crevices of the Earth.

smaneck · Jan 15, 2014

dazed said:
But isn't God omnipotent? He certainly can make His love reaches all crevices of the Earth.

I think the point is that while God's love may be there, we may not let in.

Rationalt · Jan 16, 2014

The bahais of this forum, it appears, are giving some incorrect(if not downright deceitful) ideas about bahaiullah(or bahai faith).

Being a mash of all those scriptures the bahai faith holds almost same views on unbelief:

quote:

Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted truth. He that acteth treacherously towards God will, also, act 233 treacherously towards his king. Nothing whatever can deter such a man from evil, nothing can hinder him from betraying his neighbor, nothing can induce him to walk uprightly.

Rationalt · Jan 16, 2014

The dastardly quranic verses regarding unbelievers were adopted by bahaiuallah:

Hell for unbelievers in bahai faith:

Baha'i Reference Library: Search Results[]=en-GWB

The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, ..

their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!

Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into ...

Rationalt · Jan 16, 2014

I wonder,Why do you need another religion repeating the same @#%$^& .

light upon light · Jan 16, 2014

Rationalt said:
The bahais of this forum, it appears, are giving some incorrect(if not downright deceitful) ideas about bahaiullah(or bahai faith).

Being a mash of all those scriptures the bahai faith holds almost same views on unbelief:

quote:

Know thou for a certainty that whoso disbelieveth in God is neither trustworthy nor truthful. This, indeed, is the truth, the undoubted truth. He that acteth treacherously towards God will, also, act 233 treacherously towards his king. Nothing whatever can deter such a man from evil, nothing can hinder him from betraying his neighbor, nothing can induce him to walk uprightly.

Most of Baha'u'llah's writings are letters written to individuals. In this case, this letter is from Baha'u'llah's tablet to Sultan Abdu'l Aziz, referencing not modern atheists, but the Straussian hypocrites of the day who claimed piety for the masses while consuming alcohol and employing prostitutes privately who were seeking employment with the Sultanate.

Aziz was at this time the titular religious head of Sunni Islam, so obviously any atheist who desired to work in that theocracy and conceal his viewpoints would indeed have been a hypocrite of the highest order, just like an atheist today working for a modern religious organization.

You've quoted it completely out of context. What he is saying has no reference to modern atheists, excepting those who secretly espouse piety and work for religious institutions (and I am sure there are many of those). It also has nothing to do with the atheism of Buddhism, which was a denial of limiting concepts of God (which is just a synonym for Ultimate Reality).

Here is what Abdu'l-Baha says about most belief in God:

"This people, all of them, have pictured a god in the realm of the mind, and worship that image which they have made for themselves. And yet that image is comprehended, the human mind being the comprehender thereof, and certainly the comprehender is greater than that which lieth within its grasp; for imagination is but the branch, while mind is the root; and certainly the root is greater than the branch. Consider then, how all the peoples of the world are bowing the knee to a fancy of their own contriving, how they have created a creator within their own minds, and they call it the Fashioner of all that iswhereas in truth it is but an illusion. Thus are the people worshiping only an error of perception."

A Baha'i's view of atonement

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