9/11 Truth for Dummies: Wrap Your Head Around One Thing

[LostMarbels]

To answer both of you, I don/t know where the plane is. This is not a deflection or an attempt of not giving a strait answer. I have no idea where this supposed plane is, and is part of my confliction with the original story. It all comes down to the government not showing footage of the plane hitting the building for me. All we get is a few seconds of something in one frame at low res 240p. Where are the bodies, and the plane? I do not know, and that is part of my problem.

I have no problem answering you. If you show me something, or correct an error I will change my tune. I have no need to defend a moot point, if in fact it is moot.

 

[Btodd]

To answer both of you, I don/t know where the plane is. This is not a deflection or an attempt of not giving a strait answer. I have no idea where this supposed plane is, and is part of my confliction with the original story. It all comes down to the government not showing footage of the plane hitting the building for me. All we get is a few seconds of something in one frame at low res 240p. Where are the bodies, and the plane? I do not know, and that is part of my problem.

I have no problem answering you. If you show me something, or correct an error I will change my tune. I have no need to defend a moot point, if in fact it is moot.

You appear to be speaking of Flight 77 at the Pentagon. Much of the plane disintegrated into tiny pieces (which is understandable), but there are photos of large pieces of the engines, landing gear, wheels, aluminum skin with the AA markings on it, and more...as well as pictures of bodies and body parts. I've posted them here many times.

The crash at the Pentagon occurred during morning commuter traffic, and flew right over the highway. Over 100 witnesses saw the plane, and something like 40+ directly watched it fly into the building. You can read accounts of them here:

9-11 Research: Eyewitnesses Accounts

The plane also knocked down several light poles on its way in (something many witnesses also reported seeing), and there are pictures of those as well.

Here are a few photos taken by observers from the highway right after the crash. Notice all of the cars that were sitting in traffic on the highway, with passengers having exited them to see all of this aftermath.





Here's a montage of some of the debris from the plane. I can post other, individual pictures if you like. This all happened right in front of everyone on the highway.




Btodd

 

[LostMarbels]

Ok, I get what your saying. I'm tying to take our government's track history into account. I do not know everything, but I do know that any one of those 40+ people had cell phone camera's. Where's the raw aftermath footage? No one posted it to FB? YouTube? There are 84 known tapes from security cameras, and other means know that had a direct correlation to the attack on the pentagon. All of them are sealed except the one we all know. No cell phones, no cameras, no media, nothing has been ever provided with a clear and concise point of view of the attack. So no one at all thought to shoot footage of the pentagon burning, people strewn around the ground? No one. Not one person had the presence of mind to point their cell phone and click record....... Not one. How many different views and versions are there in any crisis simply because people record the event. It is human nature. Where is the footage? Or why is it hidden?

 

[Btodd]

Ok, I get what your saying. I'm tying to take our government's track history into account. I do not know everything, but I do know that any one of those 40+ people had cell phone camera's.

Just from a cursory search, the first cell phone with a camera came out in the U.S. in 2002.

Where's the raw aftermath footage? No one posted it to FB? YouTube?

Since there were no cell phones with video capability, the first video footage is from whomever arrived on the scene first with an actual video camera...in other words, news crews.

The pictures I showed you were in the immediate aftermath however, and show the wide scope of damage where the plane hit, and the whole thing ablaze, while people had exited their cars, watching the scene after watching the plane crash into the Pentagon.

Just checking YouTube very quickly, here is some footage taken while the building is still burning, so this was not too long after the crash.

Pentagon 9/11 footage - rare clips - YouTube

There are 84 known tapes from security cameras, and other means know that had a direct correlation to the attack on the pentagon. All of them are sealed except the one we all know. No cell phones, no cameras, no media, nothing has been ever provided with a clear and concise point of view of the attack.

The cameras aren't set out looking across the highway, and take footage in frames. The one bit of footage you saw is the only one. But you don't need actual video to know that Flight 77 crashed there. We already have over 100 people who witnessed the plane, over 40 who directly saw it crash into the Pentagon, phone calls from loved ones who were on the flight, wreckage of a Boeing 757, and confirmed DNA matches from almost all of the victims. On top of that, Flight 77 was never found elsewhere, so we have no other explanation for what would have happened to it and all of its passengers.

Furthermore, not a single witness reported seeing a missile, and a missile wouldn't have knocked down all the light poles, either.

And you already stated that you think the Flights that hit the Twin Towers were the real flights full of real victims, so why in the world would the 'inside job' use real planes at the Twin Towers, and then try to sneak a missile or something else by all of the commuters who were right there to see what happened? It doesn't make any sense in the first place, and there's no evidence to support it, either.

So no one at all thought to shoot footage of the pentagon burning, people strewn around the ground? No one. Not one person had the presence of mind to point their cell phone and click record....... Not one. How many different views and versions are there in any crisis simply because people record the event. It is human nature. Where is the footage? Or why is it hidden?

We've already covered the cell phone issue, so that's a moot point. As for 'bodies on the ground', physics dictates that the bodies would all go into the building, not end up in the opposite direction on the lawn.


Btodd

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

Ok, I get what your saying. I'm tying to take our government's track history into account. I do not know everything, but I do know that any one of those 40+ people had cell phone camera's. Where's the raw aftermath footage? No one posted it to FB? YouTube?

9/11 occurred in 2001. Cell phones didn't have cameras in 2001.

 

[LostMarbels]

I was wrong and/or unaware of the fact that cell phones did not have cameras in 2001. Thank you for pointing that out.

I will respond to Btodd in a moment... need to do some stuff real quick.

 

[usexpat97]

Since there were no cell phones with video capability, the first video footage is from whomever arrived on the scene first with an actual video camera...in other words, news crews.

Wrong. The first video footage is from all the neighboring businesses who had cameras set up--say, from gas stations who like to videotape the license plates of drive-offs. These were confiscated by the FBI within 24 hours. A "national security matter", ya know.

 

[Btodd]

Wrong. The first video footage is from all the neighboring businesses who had cameras set up--say, from gas stations who like to videotape the license plates of drive-offs. These were confiscated by the FBI within 24 hours. A "national security matter", ya know.

LostMarbels asked for footage of the immediate aftermath of the crash. The gas stations don't show that, unless it's just smoke in the air from where they sit. The footage of the immediate aftermath was first photographed from the highway, where a ton of witnesses watched this unfold. You can read their stories in the link I provided earlier.


Btodd

 

[LostMarbels]

First off.... I never brought up the theory of a missile hitting the pentagon. I still have not yet found that claim to be true. I don't even know if that could be true.

I never stated a plane could or could not have been used.

I stated that there is a cover up. What are they hiding in the 84 sealed tapes? Why can they not provide a clear and concise view of the attack?

One of the problems I have is American's are lazy. We get most of our information from other sources other that first hand empirical data. Most watch the news and believe/parrot what ever is told to them without question. We don't even know if something is true if we have no first hand knowledge, but most will not even bother looking into a subject. They will just quote their favorite source like it's gospel.

Case in point: If a actor is hired to play a scientist by the FDA, and made a group of commercials, news reports, interviews, and even false scientific findings on a subject.... how many American would by into it? This is the problem with an evil government. We are supposed to be able to trust them. But with that trust also comes the abuse of power. As Americans, we have the right to question. As elected officials, they have the right to give us a truthful answer. They answer to we the people. To many today let the government have the power.

 

[LostMarbels]

I need to see the plane hit the building. Or the WMD"s Bush was talking about to believe either story.

 

[Btodd]

I need to see the plane hit the building.

That's just ignoring the MOUNTAIN of evidence I've already discussed that shows Flight 77 crashed there. And you haven't brought up a shred of evidence for any other scenario.

This is where government mistrust reaches irrational levels. I can understand questioning the government (you should), but a level like this is just ignoring tons of hard evidence to the bitter end.


Btodd

 

[LostMarbels]

That's just ignoring the MOUNTAIN of evidence I've already discussed that shows Flight 77 crashed there. And you haven't brought up a shred of evidence for any other scenario.

This is where government mistrust reaches irrational levels. I can understand questioning the government (you should), but a level like this is just ignoring tons of hard evidence to the bitter end.


Btodd

I'm really trying to get you to see my point of view. Again, I never said flight 77 didn't crash there. I said there is a cover up. There is a reason we are not ever going to see footage of the plane hitting the pentagon. Something is amiss.

As I stated before, in the 1993 bombing of the WTC Emad Ali Salem, actually taped his FBI contacts forcing him to carryout the bombing. Those tape went missing, however it is still documented fact that the FBI was involved.

1995, The Oklahoma City bombing. It is documented that two additional bombs were found inside the building, that a second suspect was seen exiting the truck, and yet again.... the footage from 12 surveillance cameras that were pointed in the direction of the bombing went missing.

2001, flight 77 flys into the pentagon. There are 84 known tapes of footage of the attack of 911.... they are sealed, and no one is allowed to see them.

Starting to see a pattern?

When dealing with the government, what they don't talk about is just as important as what is spoken. Sometimes even more so.

 

[Btodd]

I'm really trying to get you to see my point of view. Again, I never said flight 77 didn't crash there. I said there is a cover up. There is a reason we are not ever going to see footage of the plane hitting the pentagon. Something is amiss.

If you're not saying that Flight 77 didn't crash there, then you have no reason to assume a cover-up. That doesn't even make sense.

2001, flight 77 flys into the pentagon. There are 84 known tapes of footage of the attack of 911.... they are sealed, and no one is allowed to see them.

Starting to see a pattern?

When dealing with the government, what they don't talk about is just as important as what is spoken. Sometimes even more so.

You first referenced that there were 84 cameras at the Pentagon. Now you've moved on to assume that out of 84 cameras, all of them were pointed at one side of a 5-sided building, none internally, etc. You make a lot of unwarranted assumptions, and have personal expectations that are WAY out of whack in regard to how much evidence is needed to affirm a proposition. I've given you tons of evidence for Flight 77 crashing there, and you haven't given a single plausible alternative, nor any evidence of one.

So, disbelieve if you must, but it's really irrational at this point. There is no plausible story that accounts for where Flight 77 and its passengers went, which leaves you with absolutely nothing to explain it. Personal incredulity is not an explanation. The best you could conclude is that you don't believe Flight 77 crashed there, but also don't even have a theoretically plausible alternative (let alone supported by evidence like eyewitnesses, etc.) to replace it with.


Btodd

 

[LostMarbels]

If you're not saying that Flight 77 didn't crash there, then you have no reason to assume a cover-up. That doesn't even make sense.

You first referenced that there were 84 cameras at the Pentagon. Now you've moved on to assume that out of 84 cameras, all of them were pointed at one side of a 5-sided building, none internally, etc. You make a lot of unwarranted assumptions, and have personal expectations that are WAY out of whack in regard to how much evidence is needed to affirm a proposition. I've given you tons of evidence for Flight 77 crashing there, and you haven't given a single plausible alternative, nor any evidence of one.

No...... I stated "There are 84 known tapes of footage of the attack of 911." TAPES..... OF....... FOOTAGE... not cameras. You are not taking into account the flight path. How many traffic cameras, red light cameras, weather station cameras, security cameras, cameras in taxis/emergency vehicles and even camcorders could the flight path be seen from? We have footage from all of those in NY. Even video of the planes shadows going down the street.


Where is the footage of any plane hitting or even flying toward the pentagon on Sept 11, 2001?

So, disbelieve if you must, but it's really irrational at this point. There is no plausible story that accounts for where Flight 77 and its passengers went, which leaves you with absolutely nothing to explain it. Personal incredulity is not an explanation. The best you could conclude is that you don't believe Flight 77 crashed there, but also don't even have a theoretically plausible alternative (let alone supported by evidence like eyewitnesses, etc.) to replace it with.


Btodd

Steadfastness is not irrationality. Show me the plane.

 

[LostMarbels]

I forgot to answer your first question, sorry. Getting to it right now.

 

[Btodd]

No...... I stated "There are 84 known tapes of footage of the attack of 911." TAPES..... OF....... FOOTAGE... not cameras. You are not taking into account the flight path. How many traffic cameras, red light cameras, weather station cameras, security cameras, cameras in taxis/emergency vehicles and even camcorders could the flight path be seen from? We have footage from all of those in NY. Even video of the planes shadows going down the street.

Please cite your source that there are 84 tapes of footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon, instead of the claim that there were 84 cameras at the building. If you claim that there are 84 clips of 'known footage of the attack', then how can you simultaneously claim that you haven't seen all but one? That doesn't even make sense.

You already made the rookie mistake of claiming that there should have been cell-phone video of the impact, when cell phones didn't even have that capability at the time, so don't try to pretend, now, they you really have your facts in order. You just refuse to accept an explanation that is supported by a mountain of evidence, and instead latch on to one that you can't even support.


Btodd

Steadfastness is not irrationality. Show me the plane.

Actually, steadfastness can be the epitome of irrationality. The refusal to accept the preponderance of evidence for speculation that has no evidence to support it is both steadfast and irrational.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Steadfastness is not irrationality. Show me the plane.

 

[LostMarbels]

I'm not some nut job just spouting off. None of my questions are being answered at all. Until they are answered I do not see how you can see my point or truly even understand where I'm coming from in order to debate what I am saying. I am so busy trying to even get you to understand what I'm trying to state, we haven't even begun to debate it yet. Stop acting like I'm some irrational nutcase and listen to what I'm actually saying if you do want to debate.

I'm not going to keep spending hours siting sources while you just sit there flipping thru the forum wafting for me to post, just to start another rabbit for me to chase. I need some of my questions answered.

As far as the cell phone, that wasn't a rookie mistake. I was wrong, and I conceded my point. If you actually have a discussion with me, I may see your point. I however will not be browbeat into any train of thought.

 

[Btodd]

I'm not some nut job just spouting off. None of my questions are being answered at all. Until they are answered I do not see how you can see my point or truly even understand where I'm coming from in order to debate what I am saying. I am so busy trying to even get you to understand what I'm trying to state, we haven't even begun to debate it yet. Stop acting like I'm some irrational nutcase and listen to what I'm actually saying if you do want to debate.

I'm not going to keep spending hours siting sources while you just sit there flipping thru the forum wafting for me to post, just to start another rabbit for me to chase. I need some of my questions answered.

As far as the cell phone, that wasn't a rookie mistake. I was wrong, and I conceded my point. If you actually have a discussion with me, I may see your point. I however will not be browbeat into any train of thought.

What questions of yours are not being answered? And on top of that, what narrative, that is backed up by evidence, do you have to put in place of them?

This works both ways.


Btodd

 

[Trogdor the Burninator]

No...... I stated "There are 84 known tapes of footage of the attack of 911." TAPES..... OF....... FOOTAGE... not cameras. You are not taking into account the flight path. How many traffic cameras, red light cameras, weather station cameras, security cameras, cameras in taxis/emergency vehicles and even camcorders could the flight path be seen from?

How many of those were pointing up?

We have footage from all of those in NY. Even video of the planes shadows going down the street.

Almost all the plane footage from NY is from the second plane impact. No-one was expecting the first one.

Where is the footage of any plane hitting or even flying toward the pentagon on Sept 11, 2001?

Again - people don't just film random parts of the sky for fun. And since they didn't have forwarning of the crash, people weren't looking for a plane.