70 weeks

Douggg said:

I would like to ask a question of SDA eschatology.

In Revelation 17:16, the ten kings who rule with the beast, destroy the harlot with fire.

And the ten kings give their kingdom to the beast, Revelation 17:17.

Who is the harlot that the ten kings destroy? And who is the beast, that the ten kings give their kingdom to?

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The link you provided was not clear, reading their commentary, when I used the search feature on Revelation 17. The site does indicate ten European nations, which I agree to in general, albeit it is ten leaders of the EU and not necessarily ten nations. I don't want to argue over that particular point.

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17:12-18 The “ten horns” are the nations of Europe and all the earth that rally under the banner of Rome. Daniel 7:7, 24; Revelation 16:14. They are also called “The waters…where the harlot sitteth” (vs. 15) and “They that dwell on the earth…whose names were not written in the book of life.” See Revelation 13:8.

These nations give the end-time church-state alliance, which is Babylon the great, all of their strength to make war against Jesus, the Lamb, and His people who keep God’s commandments and have the faith of Jesus. (just as in the church sanctioned persecution called the dark ages)

The nations of the world will support Babylon’s Sunday law. They will enforce her decree, and those who disobey will not be allowed to buy or sell. Ultimately, they support legislation calling for the death of God’s people. Revelation 12:17; 13:11-18; 14:12. However, when Jesus delivers His faithful followers (Revelation 19:11-20) the multitudes who have supported the great harlot finally realize that they have been deceived and that they are eternally lost.

Enraged, they will turn upon their religious leaders, vs. 16. Thus, by God’s will, the punishment of the harlot of Babylon is carried out in part by her own allies.

Revelation 17 Commentary

Matthew 4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments. all ten

Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:


10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:


11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Douggg said:

I would like to ask a question of SDA eschatology.

In Revelation 17:16, the ten kings who rule with the beast, destroy the harlot with fire.

And the ten kings give their kingdom to the beast, Revelation 17:17.

Who is the harlot that the ten kings destroy? And who is the beast, that the ten kings give their kingdom to?

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The link you provided was not clear, reading their commentary, when I used the search feature on Revelation 17. The site does indicate ten European nations, which I agree to in general, albeit it is ten leaders of the EU and not necessarily ten nations. I don't want to argue over that particular point.

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You are following another teaching of the RCC

Keeping sunday instead of the Seventh day Sabbath

The Catholic Church claims responsibility for the change from seventh-day to first-day Sabbath. Here is an explanation from The Catechism of the Catholic Church Section 2 Article 3 (1994):

Sunday – fulfillment of the Sabbath. Sunday is expressly distinguished from the Sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the Sabbath...

The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ...

In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church’s holy days as legal holidays.

Cardinal James Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (Ayers Publishing, 1978): 108:
But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.

Chancellor Albert Smith for Cardinal of Baltimore Archdiocese, letter dated February 10, 1920:
If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath day by God is Saturday. In keeping the Sunday, they are following a law of the Catholic Church.

Boasts of the Roman Church about Sunday

Notice that Saturday/Sunday worship is an issue with sanctification

Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Original Happy Camper said:

These nations give the end-time church-state alliance, which is Babylon the great, all of their strength to make war against Jesus, the Lamb, and His people who keep God’s commandments and have the faith of Jesus. (just as in the church sanctioned persecution called the dark ages)

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give the end-time church-state alliance (Babylon the Great) to - who? You don't say give to who.

Identify the Pope in the above quote?

Who is the beast, that the ten kings give their kingdom to?

Would the Pope not be the leader of that church part of that alliance? The Pope is going to destroy his own church, and basis for his papacy ?

Original Happy Camper said:

So glad you asked

The Antichrist power has to fulfill all of the characteristics given in the Bible. It cannot meet only some of them. Thirteen times in the above articles, we see how the papal system qualifies for all the identifying points of the little horn power of Daniel 7,

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You still haven't given me a specific end-time passage that identifies Rome! According to Daniel IT comes from the realm of Greece - NOT Rome!

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

"And a reed like a rod was given to me. And the angel stood, saying, Rise up and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it was given to the nations. And they will trample the holy city forty-two months."

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This may be the only hint John gave that Paradise can be seen "on earth", and earth is the courtyard of Paradise.

It could also be directly above the earth, but not seen by those on the earth. 2 Kings 6:16-17

16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Davy said:

Making an end of sin and atonement for iniquity is dependent of course upon THOSE WHO BELIEVE on Jesus.

Since when did the majority of orthodox Jews believe on Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah?

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The house of Jacob would have to wait 2300 years. The church was in charge of the vinyard for 1990 of those 2300. Do you think the Sanhedren was "in the dark" when it came to Daniel? Jews today do not even recognize Daniel as a prophet. Do you think they took Daniel serious, and hoped to die before 70AD. The same 40 years of unbelief their fathers spent in the Wilderness. Do you really think the Jews who killed Jesus were counting down those 40 years? How did this apply to the church one iota? They were proclaiming the Gospel, despite the fact the Jews were heading towards doom. The church accepted Daniel as a prophet by the mere fact Gabriel was giving him the words to write down at the very least. Daniel never took credit for anything he wrote, except his own prayers to God. Only those who spiritualize or take things too literal in the letter of the Law, would miss the message Daniel gave to the world.

sovereigngrace said:

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

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Well there is the decapitation of some here in regards to the 1000 years in Revelation 20. They say God did not mean 1000 years, but an indefinite time peeiod. Ironic how some can pick and choose which time in Scripture they decapitate. Those living in that 1000 years actually had their heads decapitated to get there.

Original Happy Camper said:

I would appreciate that all on this thread who believe in the gap theory for the 70 weeks prophecy would be honest and admit that it is a Jesuit counter reformation teaching that they are following.

That is the origin of the gap theory

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Stop reading the Jesuit translation of the Bible. How did the Jesuits write the whole NT in the 1st century? The 7th Trumpet is the end, and the 7th Trumpet is still future. If there is not a gap, then whose dream do we exist in, in the 1st century? Is this Paul's dream?

jgr said:

Futurism has done far more than taint itself. It has embraced the apostate counterfeit inventions of the Jesuit Francisco Ribera with great fervor, and made them a cornerstone of futurist dogma.

Futurism has defiled itself with an apostate counterfeit legacy.

"The “Futurist School” interprets the language of the Apocalypse “literally,” except such symbols as are named as such and hold that the whole of the Book, from the end of the third chapter, is yet “future” and unfulfilled, and that the greater part of the Book, from the beginning of chapter six to the end of chapter nineteen, describes what shall come to pass during the last week of “Daniel’s Seventy Weeks.” . . . In its present form it may be said to have originated at the end of the Sixteenth Century, with the Jesuit Ribera, who actuated by the same motive as the Jesuit Alcazar, sought to rid the Papacy of the stigma of being called the “Antichrist,” and so referred the prophecies of the Apocalypse to the distant future. This view was accepted by the Roman Catholic Church and was for a long time confined to it, but, strange to say, it has wonderfully revived since the beginning of the Nineteenth Century, and among Protestants. . . ., The “Futurist” interpretation of scripture is the one employed in this book."

Clarence Larkin, Dispensational Truth

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So your view is this: shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come.

The Second Coming in your view has happened and we are living in never never land?

Timtofly said:

The house of Jacob would have to wait 2300 years. The church was in charge of the vinyard for 1990 of those 2300. Do you think the Sanhedren was "in the dark" when it came to Daniel? Jews today do not even recognize Daniel as a prophet. Do you think they took Daniel serious, and hoped to die before 70AD. The same 40 years of unbelief their fathers spent in the Wilderness. Do you really think the Jews who killed Jesus were counting down those 40 years? How did this apply to the church one iota? They were proclaiming the Gospel, despite the fact the Jews were heading towards doom. The church accepted Daniel as a prophet by the mere fact Gabriel was giving him the words to write down at the very least. Daniel never took credit for anything he wrote, except his own prayers to God. Only those who spiritualize or take things too literal in the letter of the Law, would miss the message Daniel gave to the world.

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Sounds like White SDA theory. I can't accept that.

The 2300 years of Daniel 8 is about a time prior to the mid-point of the coming "one week" of Dan.9:27. The end of the 2300 is when Jesus returns at His 2nd coming.

To determine when the 2300 years starts, put the end of it on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, and then go back 2300 years.

sovereigngrace said:

It is impossible debating with you. You cherry-pick what you respond to. When someone submits arguments that expose your hermeneutics you skip around them. Please address:

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

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This is the punishment of Israel in the Babylonian captivity. Do you think the Jews have to go back to finish this captivity for a few months? What does this captivity have to do with anything God is telling Daniel of the future?

Did God plan for there to be 490 years between the captivity and the time of the Cross, just to use the number 70 as a relationship? Can God also insert 1990 years between the Cross and the Second Coming? This has nothing to do with humans trying to figure Scripture out. It is simply God's plan at work. At least some human understanding does not change Scripture and tell God how He has to do things. There is a supposed gap, because of God's plan. God puts 1000 year time frames where some here rebuke God on doing so.

Spiritual Jew said:

What's plain to me is that you refuse to acknowledge what passages like Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 2:19-23 and Revelation 1:5-6 clearly say about Christ's current status as the Ruler and King of the Universe. Your carnal way of thinking prevents you from seeing that. Just because He isn't ruling like a dictator and forcing people to obey Him, you can't comprehend how He could be reigning now. But scripture says He is. And scripture says we are in His kingdom now.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

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And you refuse to see Paradise as a bodily experience. Is that not being slightly hypocritical in limiting your own view? God clearly states there is going to be an earthly Kingdom and you out right reject God’s plan. You tell God it is now, when God keeps saying not yet. Sin is not abolished until the 7th Trumpet. All those parables about an earthly Kingdom are not finished until the 7th Trumpet. Then there will be the Lord's Day on earth. Many here criticise others about the past, when they do not even accept God's future completion of all covenants.

Timtofly said:

So your view is this: shaken in your thinking or anxious because of a spirit or a spoken message or a letter supposedly from us claiming that the Day of the Lord has already come.

The Second Coming in your view has happened and we are living in never never land?

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No idea where you got that idea.

Paul didn't say when the day of the Lord would come.

It hasn't come yet.

jgr said:

No idea where you got that idea.

Paul didn't say when the day of the Lord would come.

It hasn't come yet.

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Do not try and work that out. He has a history of deliberately misinterpreting Amil posts.

Douggg said:

You are making an unsubstantiated claim because no futurist at this forum, nor historiicist has read ribera, to take their eschatology from.

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Undoubtedly some of them have read and agreed with Larkin, and undoubtedly most or all of them have read someone who has read and agreed with Larkin.

If they've taken their eschatology from Larkin or someone who has read and agreed with Larkin, they've taken their eschatology from Ribera.

jgr said:

Undoubtedly some of them have read Larkin, and undoubtedly most or all of them have read someone who has read Larkin.

If they've taken their eschatology from Larkin or someone who has read Larkin, they've taken their eschatology from Ribera.

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How many futurists in this forum do you think have even heard of Larkin ?

mkgal1 said:

Jesus was the only Israelite that fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant entirely. He is who "finished the transgression". That's the purpose of Him saying on the Cross:

IT IS FINISHED - John 19:30
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Jesus is the True Israel.

Matthew 2:14-15
14So he got up, took the Child and His mother by night, and withdrew to Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod. This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”( c )
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John 15:1-6 speaks of how Jesus fulfilled Isaiah 27:1-13

Isaiah 27:6
In the days to come, Jacob will take root.

Israel will bud and blossom

and fill the whole world with fruit.
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So Jews are no longer in rebellion then? If jesus finshed teh transgression (single and specific) then as the prophecy of Daniel is for Daniels people (plural) and city- they must be doing okay.

And the descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob are Israel!

And for It is finished? Tetelestai? You have poorly read your bible! For Hebrews clearly tell sus it is offering for sin that is now finished- NOt Israels'' singular sin of rebellion.

So you believe Jesus is true Israel and the Israeli people are what ?CounterfeitIsrael now?

So then we have a real problem with so many here who call the church Israel and you think Jesus is only partially saved.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Douggg said:

How many futurists in this forum do you think have even heard of Larkin ?

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Directly and indirectly, probably virtually all.

He was a futurist's darling for many years after releasing his Dispensational Truth.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Why does that 3.5 years have to be after a 1,990 + years gap? Why could it not have been in the first century?

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Because it is about Christ the Lamb being present on the earth, not necessarily Jewish history. It is about God, not humanity.