70 weeks

Timtofly · Dec 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
How does one then explain Zechariah 14:16-19 if sin no longer exists when that is being fulfilled? How does one explain why fire comes down from God out of heaven, and devours them, after the thousand years if sin is no longer existing at the time?

Egypt refused a direct order as a nation and they were punished as a nation, by having rain withheld. Would that engender discontent with Jesus' rule or with their own leaders representative refusal of an order?

Why does one think disobedience can only be a sin? It does brake a Law. However there has to be law, or there would be chaos. Chaos is not sin. The order that Adam disobeyed was to not eat. There was plenty of food to eat, so Adam's life did not depend on that one type of tree.

However if you were told to stand on a sidewalk and not a busy street, whose fault is it, if a car hits you? Is that a sin, standing in the middle of a busy street? The command was to stand on the sidewalk. No one was commanded: not to stand in the street. If one crosses the road they may stand in the street at some point. They would have to brake a law to cross the street then. Yet none of these simple laws means that sin will enter, because sin entered from only breaking 1 simple command. Can there be sin without the knowledge of evil? Can evil happen if sin is not present? Is there a difference between getting hurt and evil?

Timtofly · Dec 16, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Then why were Daniel and the rest of the Israelites experiencing the consequences and effects of their sin when Daniel was visited by Gabriel? There'd be no need for Daniel's prayer, were that true:

Daniel 9:2-19

Especially look at these parts:

Verse 2
I, Daniel, understood from the sacred books, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

12You have carried out the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us a great disaster. For under all of heaven, nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem.13Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our iniquities and giving attention to Your truth. 14Therefore the LORD has kept the calamity in store and brought it upon us

And nothing has changed since Daniel's time. Sin still has consequences.

That will not change until the 7th Trumpet.

mkgal1 · Dec 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
The consequences and effects of sin was resolved once and for all. But that was resolved before God even created the earth by His Word. Sin will not be resolved itself until the 7th Trumpet is finished sounding

Timtofly said:
And nothing has changed since Daniel's time. Sin still has consequences.

That will not change until the 7th Trumpet.

This seems like a contradiction to me. You seemed to be dividing sin and its consequences.....and to be asserting that, while sin has not been eradicated....the consequences have been "resolved". Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "consequences and effects of sin have been resolved"? What did you mean?

Timtofly · Dec 16, 2020

mkgal1 said:
This seems like a contradiction to me. You seemed to be dividing sin and its consequences.....and to be asserting that, while sin has not been eradicated....the consequences have been "resolved". Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by "consequences and effects of sin have been resolved"? What did you mean?

Are you talking about now or some future event?

For those in Christ, the eternal consequences of sin has been eradicated. If you cut you fingers off in a sinful act, you have to live with the consequences of the physical act either good or evil consequences.

No, the 7th Trumpet did not sound in or around 70AD.

nolidad · Dec 16, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I'm not changing what the Bible actually says. It may be in conflict with your interpretation....but that's all.

Read the bible, then the explanation and see if they say the same things.

mkgal1 said:
I agree with Adam Maarschalk, that it was the ten high priests and appointed religious leaders. That's what currently lines up for me, based on my reading.

QuotingAdamMaarschalk:
Josephus listed exactly 10 high priests and religious leaders in Israel who were given authority as generals in December 66 AD or January 67 AD. I would like to propose that they fulfilled the prophecy given to John by the angel in Rev. 17:12-14. This would mean, of course, that the beast in Revelation 17 was Jewish, not Roman. ~ "Josephus Lists the 10 Horns Who Received Authority for “One Hour” (Revelation 17:12) | Pursuing Truth" Josephus Lists the 10 Horns Who Received Authority for “One Hour” (Revelation 17:12)

Wow!
So these ten generals are part of the fourth gentile beast kingdom who are jews governing Israel? WOW!

and they have one mind- to give their authority to the Antichrist who subdues 3 of these ten kings! and the antchirst is the eleventh horn who is of the ten! so who is this Jewish leader/antichirst? I can't wait, the suspense is killing me!

mkgal1 said:
What specific verse are you interpreting that way (that an actual cessation of sin was declared)? To me, that nullifies and delays the power of the Cross.

I am interpreting no verse that way but showing you the verse that says that!:

Daniel 9:24
King James Version

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins,

to make an end of sins- is to stop the practice of sin. It cannot mean solve the problem of sin by Jesus dying! that is covered by making reconciliation for iniquity.

mkgal1 said:
Nope. I'm not saying that. At all.

then what do you mean when you say that Jesus solved the problem of sin when you quote that He :made an end to sins." the grammar only allows it to mean a cessation of the practice of sinning.

mkgal1 said:
No....I (and the article I shared) am saying that was the New Covenant Jesus confirmed for 7 years. It's not that He "made a covenant" in 27 AD....He demonstrated that He was the promised Messiah the prophets and the Law spoke of. He fulfilled all the previous requirements that humanity could not fulfill. He was the New Adam....the seed of Abraham....the Son of David....the branch that would bear fruit.....the Lion of Judah.....the root of David.

I agree with all the titles you gave Jesus. so let me review your beliefs to date:

1. Jesus fulfilled the new covenant so it is complete.
2. The New covenant is the 7 year covenant of Daniel 9
3. the covenant was in effect for Jews from 27-34 AD

So Jews can no longer have gods law written in their inward parts? Are you saying no Jews now can know the Lord? Are you saying that no Jews now can have god as their god?

What happened after the 7 years were up with the new covenant for the jews?

mkgal1 said:
I do believe Jesus confirmed the promised New Covenant (not a "7 year covenant")....also known as the everlasting covenant or covenant of peace.

So if the.

NOw that you say Jesus confirmed the covenant- do you no longer say Jesus fulfilled that covenant? New covenant is an everlasting covenant- what part of that covenant was happening from 27-34 Ad as you said is that confirmed covenant for 7 years?

nolidad · Dec 16, 2020

mkgal1 said:
You just posted you agreed with me, but are now adding personal commentary to what's written as an argument against what you just agreed with.

Look at Daniel's prayer again:

Daniel 9:4-5
And I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed, “O, Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant of loving devotion to those who love Him and keep His commandments, we have sinned and done wrong. We have acted wickedly and rebelled. We have turned away from Your commandments and ordinances.

Well following rules fo grammar to know how to read a sentence in a normal usual way, The people Daniel is praying for is all of Israel and not just a small faithful remnant! Daniels prayer is fro all the people in all 12 tribes.

A faithful remnant is not one who does all that nasty stuff. that is not too faithful is it. Daniel is praying for all Jews!

mkgal1 · Dec 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
Are you talking about now or some future event?

For those in Christ, the eternal consequences of sin has been eradicated. If you cut you fingers off in a sinful act, you have to live with the consequences of the physical act either good or evil consequences.

No, the 7th Trumpet did not sound in or around 70AD.

I'm asking about what you've posted.

You first stated that:

Timtofly said:
The consequences and effects of sin was resolved once and for all. But that was resolved before God even created the earth by His Word. Sin will not be resolved itself until the 7th Trumpet is finished sounding.

And I responded by pointing out that, if the consequences and effects of sin had indeed been resolved, then Daniel and the Israelites wouldn't have been in exile for 70 years, as that was a consequence of their sin.

But then you posted this (which seems to me to be a contradiction):

Timtofly said:
And nothing has changed since Daniel's time. Sin still has consequences.

mkgal1 · Dec 16, 2020

nolidad said:
Well following rules fo grammar to know how to read a sentence in a normal usual way, The people Daniel is praying for is all of Israel and not just a small faithful remnant! Daniels prayer is fro all the people in all 12 tribes.

A faithful remnant is not one who does all that nasty stuff. that is not too faithful is it. Daniel is praying for all Jews!

"Normal grammar" doesn't add things that aren't in the text. Look again at who Daniel says God was in covenant with:

Daniel 9:4-5
And I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed, “O, Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant of loving devotion to those who love Him and keep His commandments, we have sinned and done wrong. We have acted wickedly and rebelled. We have turned away from Your commandments and ordinances.

........I agree that a faithful remnant is not the UNfaithful. I'm confused why you'd bring that up to me, because I'm referring to the faithful remnant. Daniel, nor any of the Israelites, were perfect....but Daniel recognized their failings and repented and asked God for mercy.

No where does this passage imply that Daniel is praying for God to be merciful to those who continue to reject Him (which is what I take it you're implying as a way to posit this is still future to us and not fulfilled through the early Church through Jesus' chosen disciples).

mkgal1 · Dec 16, 2020

nolidad said:
Read the bible, then the explanation and see if they say the same things.

As if I've not read the Bible. It's not an issue of me not reading the Bible. It's that I don't understand where you're getting your ideas from.

nolidad said:
Wow!
So these ten generals are part of the fourth gentile beast kingdom who are jews governing Israel? WOW!

"Gentiles" can also mean those that have been cast out of the assembly as unbelievers. I'm not completely convinced it was these zealots, but it does add up to me more than it meaning Romans.

nolidad said:
then what do you mean when you say that Jesus solved the problem of sin when you quote that He :made an end to sins." the grammar only allows it to mean a cessation of the practice of sinning

Do you not believe Jesus has resolved the issue of sin between you and God? I don't believe I've even come close to sinless perfection (a cessation of sinning) but I do have faith that God has forgiven me of the sins that separate me from Him (at an enormous and personal cost).

Timtofly · Dec 16, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I'm asking about what you've posted.

You first stated that:

And I responded by pointing out that, if the consequences and effects of sin had indeed been resolved, then Daniel and the Israelites wouldn't have been in exile for 70 years, as that was a consequence of their sin.

But then you posted this (which seems to me to be a contradiction):

That is because the only thing that happened was the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Thus God physically accomplished the Atonement. But since Adam nothing has changed about sin nor it's consequences.

The Second Coming cannot have happened in the 1st century because sin was not eradicated. Sin eradicated is still future. But the consequences of our sin is ongoing since Adam.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 17, 2020

nolidad said:
Daniel 9:24
King James Version

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins,

to make an end of sins- is to stop the practice of sin. It cannot mean solve the problem of sin by Jesus dying! that is covered by making reconciliation for iniquity.

So, when exactly do you believe "to make an end of sins" will be fulfilled and how exactly do you think it will be fulfilled?

Davy · Dec 17, 2020

Timtofly said:
Actually you only have to go back 300 years from 30AD. So about 270BC.

The way it is written in Daniel 8 is this, because it involves this question in Daniel 8...

Dan 8:13
How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
KJV

That involves 3 events:
1. "the vision concerning the daily sacrifice"
2. "the transgression of desolation"
3. "both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot"

Per Daniel 9 & 11 we know the daily sacrifice is ended when the false one sets up the abomination in Jerusalem. The placing of the abomination idol is what the idea of "desolation" is about, polluting the sanctuary, spiritually. The trodding under foot is about the Rev.11:1-2 events of those who worship in the latter day temple in Jerusalem when it is rebuilt for the coming Antichrist, and the Gentiles tread the holy city for 42 months. The finish of all that happens with Jesus' return to end it.

The Answer:
Dan 8:14
14 And he said unto me, 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.'
KJV

All 3 of those above events are to take place within that 2300 days, and then at the end of the 2300 days the sanctuary will be cleansed (which will be the setting up of the Ezekiel 40-47 Millennial temple that Jesus will reign from.)

[-----------------------Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" (7 years)----------------------]
[-----------1260 days-----------------------]AOD[-----------------1260 days------------]Jesus return
...............................[------------------------------2300 days--------------------------] cleansing

sovereigngrace · Dec 17, 2020

nolidad said:
Well following rules fo grammar to know how to read a sentence in a normal usual way, The people Daniel is praying for is all of Israel and not just a small faithful remnant! Daniels prayer is fro all the people in all 12 tribes.

A faithful remnant is not one who does all that nasty stuff. that is not too faithful is it. Daniel is praying for all Jews!

Following the rules of grammar to read a sentence in a normal usual way you would not spell "of" as "fo," or "for" as "fro," or capitalize "The" after a comma, or start a sentence with "that" instead of "That," or speak of "Daniels," but place an apostrophe after the "l."

mkgal1 · Dec 17, 2020

Timtofly said:
That is because the only thing that happened was the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Thus God physically accomplished the Atonement. But since Adam, nothing has changed about sin nor it's consequences.

I'm sorry you don't recognize what a revolutionary change Jesus made at His first advent. To say that nothing has changed since Adam is to completely disregard the Cross, His resurrection, and ascension.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit.

I'd recommend N.T. Wright's work. This book in particular:

The Day the Revolution Began: Reconsidering the Meaning of Jesus's Crucifixion - Google Search

Or :
"Jesus and the Victory of God - Nicholas Thomas Wright - Google Books" Jesus and the Victory of God

nolidad · Dec 17, 2020

mkgal1 said:
"Normal grammar" doesn't add things that aren't in the text. Look again at who Daniel says God was in covenant with:

Daniel 9:4-5
And I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed, “O, Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant of loving devotion to those who love Him and keep His commandments, we have sinned and done wrong. We have acted wickedly and rebelled. We have turned away from Your commandments and ordinances.

........I agree that a faithful remnant is not the UNfaithful. I'm confused why you'd bring that up to me, because I'm referring to the faithful remnant. Daniel, nor any of the Israelites, were perfect....but Daniel recognized their failings and repented and asked God for mercy.

No where does this passage imply that Daniel is praying for God to be merciful to those who continue to reject Him (which is what I take it you're implying as a way to posit this is still future to us and not fulfilled through the early Church through Jesus' chosen disciples).

So Daniel is not part of those who God keeps covenant with? He uses "we" which includes Daniel?

Well the covenants were made to the entire nation of Israel! Yours is a re-interpretation that has no grammatic or historic backing. You are making implications Daniel is only praying for faithful Jews and not for teh unfaithful. Yet God delivered both faithful and unfaithful!

Are you now trying to say that Daniel 9:24 when the angel said 70 weeks are determined for thy people, He actually meant to say just Jews who are faithful? Evidence and warrant for that please. YOu cannot go from the nation to just teh faithful without some grammatic notice of change.

mkgal1 · Dec 17, 2020

nolidad said:
Daniels prayer is fro all the people in all 12 tribes.

It doesn't state that ("ALL the people in ALL 12 tribes").....that would contradict the need for the consequences listed in Deuteronomy 18 and the prophesied end.

However....it does seem that some were faithful in all of the 12 tribes:

James 1:1
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

nolidad · Dec 17, 2020

mkgal1 said:
As if I've not read the Bible. It's not an issue of me not reading the Bible. It's that I don't understand where you're getting your ideas from.

Right from teh pages of Scripture without an allegorical redisposition.

mkgal1 said:
"Gentiles" can also mean those that have been cast out of the assembly as unbelievers. I'm not completely convinced it was these zealots, but it does add up to me more than it meaning Romans.

so now you are redefining the term Gentile as well? And it doesn't mean the romans. These ten kings arise out of the time when the fourth beast kingdom rules the whole world as Daniel clearly and unambiguously says.

mkgal1 said:
Do you not believe Jesus has resolved the issue of sin between you and God? I don't believe I've even come close to sinless perfection (a cessation of sinning) but I do have faith that God has forgiven me of the sins that separate me from Him (at an enormous and personal cost).

Yes I do! that is the "reconciliation for sin" part of that prophecy:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

but most assuredly it is not a fulfilment of the make and end of sins or finish THE (singular) transgression. That only comes about by twisting words to mean something they don't.

nolidad · Dec 17, 2020

mkgal1 said:
And I responded by pointing out that, if the consequences and effects of sin had indeed been resolved, then Daniel and the Israelites wouldn't have been in exile for 70 years, as that was a consequence of their sin.

But then you posted this (which seems to me to be a contradiction):

Well you say teh sin problem has been resolved- yet over 40 years later Israel was exiled in the diaspora!
Doesn't fit your timeline at all!

BABerean2 · Dec 17, 2020

nolidad said:
Well you say teh sin problem has been resolved- yet over 40 years later Israel was exiled in the diaspora!
Doesn't fit your timeline at all!

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

.

nolidad · Dec 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
So, when exactly do you believe "to make an end of sins" will be fulfilled and how exactly do you think it will be fulfilled?

Philip_B said:
Earlier in the thread you completely glossed over the question I raised in relation to the nature of scripture and the books that form part of it. There was a rabbinic tradition that required two witnesses in relation to arguments from scripture, by which they referred to the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.

The arguments you present here are from Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus. Arguments from others have canvassed a broad range of scripture, and yet here we are.

The bible did not save me, Jesus did.

The how is in gods hand. The when is when Jesus returns and grants the 1/3 Jews who survived the tribulation period (Zech 13) entrance into the kingdom which is the end of the 70th week.

Three days prior to Jesus return, the vail will be removed from the 1/3, they will see Jesus is Messiah and will pray to HIm and ask Him to return according to the psalms and fulfilment of Matthew when Jesus said they would not see Him AGAIN, UNTIL they say Blessed is he....).

70 weeks

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