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You forgot to mention the flood, of water, out of the dragons mouth.Why does that 3.5 years have to be after a 1,990 + years gap? Why could it not have been in the first century?
Daniel 9:26 states "And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war."
Rome's war against the Jews in Judea began in 66 A.D and lasted till 70 A.D when Jerusalem was destroyed. So if there was a gap between the midst of the 70th week and the fulfillment of the entire prophecy, why could that gap not have been the plus-minus 40 years between Calvary and 70 A.D? How long did the war last until the consummation? 66 A.D to 70 A.D. Was that not 3.5 years maybe?
If there is a gap between the 70th week and the complete fulfillment of the prophecy, why can't it mean that "the people of the ruler who shall come" destroyed the city and the sanctuary around 40 years after the midst of the 70th week?
Well maybe the man of sin will seat himself in the tabernacle of God (the Church) in the final 42 months of this Age, claiming that Daniel 9:27 has just begun to be fulfilled and it's the beginning of the final seven years, when in fact it marks the beginning of the final 42 months.
But we're speculating - and the reason why we're speculating is because this is what happens when we lose sight of the fact that Daniel 9:26 states that the completion of the 70 weeks prophecy will involve:
(a) The cutting off of the Messiah after 69 weeks; and
(b) A war which will culminate in the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.
Daniel 9:27 also tells us that the completion of the prophecy will involve:
(a) A covenant being confirmed by Him (I believe it refers to the New Covenant being confirmed by the Messiah by His blood of the New Covenant in the midst of the week when He is cut off); and
(b) the sacrifice and oblation being caused to cease in the midst of the 70th week, and the overspreading of abominations will occur from then on till the end of both the war and the desolation spoken of in verse 26.
If we read verse 27 losing sight of what verse 26 says, then we will easily do ridiculous things with the prophecy like pushing its ultimate fulfillment to the end of the Age, even though there is absolutely nothing in the text suggesting we should do that.
That’s the problem. Many futurists don’t know the history of their own doctrine. The men you follow (known or not) are Darby, Anderson, and Larkin.How many futurists in this forum do you think have even heard of Larkin ?
Christian Futurism, a religious form of futurism, is not a doctrine but a type of Christian eschatology view. There are many different futurists beliefs. Some futurists think the Mahdi will be the Antichrist/beast, and Isa the false prophet, for example.That’s the problem. Many futurists don’t know the history of their own doctrine. The men you follow (known or not) are Darby, Anderson, and Larkin.
Actually you only have to go back 300 years from 30AD. So about 270BC.Sounds like White SDA theory. I can't accept that.
The 2300 years of Daniel 8 is about a time prior to the mid-point of the coming "one week" of Dan.9:27. The end of the 2300 is when Jesus returns at His 2nd coming.
To determine when the 2300 years starts, put the end of it on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns, and then go back 2300 years.
Because you cannot accept a gap of 1990 years since the Cross in 30AD.No idea where you got that idea.
Paul didn't say when the day of the Lord would come.
It hasn't come yet.
Because you cannot accept a gap of 1990 years since the Cross in 30AD.
I can do the math, and it has been 1990 years since 30AD.
Gabriel wasn't referring to our modern day (nor the people of a geopolitical place on our map today). Gabriel was telling Daniel about a very specific and defined time. The final "week"....7 years..... was the time of Jesus's ministry on earth (26/27 AD ----> 30 AD) and the subsequent time left for the ancient biblical Israelites....until 34 AD.So Jews are no longer in rebellion then? If jesus finshed teh transgression (single and specific) then as the prophecy of Daniel is for Daniels people (plural) and city- they must be doing okay.
And the descendants of the twelve sons of Jacob are Israel!
And for It is finished? Tetelestai? You have poorly read your bible! For Hebrews clearly tell sus it is offering for sin that is now finished- NOt Israels'' singular sin of rebellion.
So you believe Jesus is true Israel and the Israeli people are what ?CounterfeitIsrael now?
So then we have a real problem with so many here who call the church Israel and you think Jesus is only partially saved.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Does no one even see the church is repeating the same history as Israel? The Babylonian captivity should have been their Reformation moment, but they squandered the last 430 years of the OT.Good for you. My post didn't need math.
The consequences and effects of sin was resolved once and for all. But that was resolved before God even created the earth by His Word. Sin will not be resolved itself until the 7th Trumpet is finished sounding.Gabriel wasn't referring to our modern day (nor the people of a geopolitical place on our map today). Gabriel was telling Daniel about a very specific and defined time. The final "week"....7 years..... was the time of Jesus's ministry on earth (26/27 AD ----> 30 AD) and the subsequent time left for the ancient biblical Israelites....until 34 AD.
A Christian historical orthodox view:
"The Coming of Jesus: Daniel's 70 Weeks | That Ancient Faith" https://www.thatancientfaith.uk/hom...cle/the-coming-of-jesus-daniels-70-weeks.html
Quoting from article linked above:
The Jewish people had that time while Jesus was with them to repent and turn back to God and enter his eternal kingdom which was promised to the Messiah – the kingdom which Daniel also prophesied about in Daniel chapter two, that would be founded not by human hands, and which would last forever. That was the time which God had given his people, and those who rejected it would suffer what was prophesied about in the final "week".
Dan 2:44
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to another people. It shall crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever
2 Peter 1:11
For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you
Jn 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.
The main theme of Gabriel's message was the ancient biblical Israelites exile and promised return to their land (Gabriel came to Daniel around 539 BC). But returning them to their land wasn't God's ultimate goal. Dealing with sin permanently was (as John the baptizer said in his announcement of Jesus's arrival recorded in John 1:29). The provisions in the covenant made on Mt Sinai only temporarily covered their sin - Gabriel explained to Daniel that there would be a permanent solution to their sin.....but it wouldn't be soon for Daniel. It would be in 490 years. As Spurgeon wrote:
Infinite wisdom dictated the hour at which the Messiah should be born, and the moment at which He should be cut off. His advent and His work are the highest point of the purpose of God, the hinge of history, the center of providence, the crowning of the edifice of grace, and therefore peculiar care watched over every detail.Was the problem of sin not resolved completely and permanently through Jesus's death on the Cross, resurrection, and ascension into heaven? The Temple in Jerusalem wasn't what resolved the issue of sin....and Jesus was vindicated by the destruction of the Temple and the ancient city of Jerusalem in the first century. God's ultimate plan for sin (as i see in Scripture) was to make a provision for permanent forgiveness of sin. As John announced in 26/27 AD (fitting perfectly according to Gabriel's timeline):
-C. H. Spurgeon
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! - John 1:29
Sin will no longer exist when the 7th Trumpet stops. Adam's sinful flesh will not exist at the end of the battle of Armageddon. The battle of Armageddon is the final hour of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.
Then why were Daniel and the rest of the Israelites experiencing the consequences and effects of their sin when Daniel was visited by Gabriel? There'd be no need for Daniel's prayer, were that true:The consequences and effects of sin was resolved once and for all. But that was resolved before God even created the earth by His Word.
That's a good point about whom this prophecy was given. Look at who Daniel referred to as being in covenant with God:So Jews are no longer in rebellion then? If jesus finshed teh transgression (single and specific) then as the prophecy of Daniel is for Daniels people (plural) and city- they must be doing okay.
Gabriel wasn't referring to our modern day (nor the people of a geopolitical place on our map today). Gabriel was telling Daniel about a very specific and defined time. The final "week"....7 years..... was the time of Jesus's ministry on earth (26/27 AD ----> 30 AD) and the subsequent time left for the ancient biblical Israelites....until 34 AD.
A Christian historical orthodox view:
"The Coming of Jesus: Daniel's 70 Weeks | That Ancient Faith" https://www.thatancientfaith.uk/hom...cle/the-coming-of-jesus-daniels-70-weeks.html
Quoting from article linked above:
The Jewish people had that time while Jesus was with them to repent and turn back to God and enter his eternal kingdom which was promised to the Messiah – the kingdom which Daniel also prophesied about in Daniel chapter two, that would be founded not by human hands, and which would last forever. That was the time which God had given his people, and those who rejected it would suffer what was prophesied about in the final "week".
Dan 2:44
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to another people. It shall crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever
2 Peter 1:11
For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you
Jn 18:36
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.
The main theme of Gabriel's message was the ancient biblical Israelites exile and promised return to their land (Gabriel came to Daniel around 539 BC). But returning them to their land wasn't God's ultimate goal. Dealing with sin permanently was (as John the baptizer said in his announcement of Jesus's arrival recorded in John 1:29). The provisions in the covenant made on Mt Sinai only temporarily covered their sin - Gabriel explained to Daniel that there would be a permanent solution to their sin.....but it wouldn't be soon for Daniel. It would be in 490 years. As Spurgeon wrote:
Infinite wisdom dictated the hour at which the Messiah should be born, and the moment at which He should be cut off. His advent and His work are the highest point of the purpose of God, the hinge of history, the center of providence, the crowning of the edifice of grace, and therefore peculiar care watched over every detail.Was the problem of sin not resolved completely and permanently through Jesus's death on the Cross, resurrection, and ascension into heaven? The Temple in Jerusalem wasn't what resolved the issue of sin....and Jesus was vindicated by the destruction of the Temple and the ancient city of Jerusalem in the first century. God's ultimate plan for sin (as i see in Scripture) was to make a provision for permanent forgiveness of sin. As John announced in 26/27 AD (fitting perfectly according to Gabriel's timeline):
-C. H. Spurgeon
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! - John 1:29
That's a good point about whom this prophecy was given. Look at who Daniel referred to as being in covenant with God:
Daniel 9:4-7......I'd argue that "Daniel's people" were the ancient biblical Israelites that were in unity with Daniel's prayer.
“O, Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant of loving devotion to those who love Him and keep His commandments, we have sinned and done wrong. We have acted wickedly and rebelled. We have turned away from Your commandments and ordinances. We have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, leaders, and fathers, and to all the people of the land.
I'm not changing what the Bible actually says. It may be in conflict with your interpretation....but that's all.You r subtle changing of what the Bible actually says notwithstanding- let us look at your responses.
I agree with Adam Maarschalk, that it was the ten high priests and appointed religious leaders. That's what currently lines up for me, based on my reading.YOu cite Daniel 2 for proof that the 70 weeks are consecutive and Jesus established His everlasting kingdom.
So who are the ten kings Jesus vanquished?
What specific verse are you interpreting that way (that an actual cessation of sin was declared)? To me, that nullifies and delays the power of the Cross.And to quote you: "Was the problem of sin not resolved completely and permanently through Jesus's death on the Cross, resurrection, and ascension into heaven?"
Yes but that is not what is declared in in 9 in Daniel 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
It is not the problem of sin and its consequences that is talked about. It is a ceasing from committing sins that is declared. Sorry but that re-interpretation of the angelic declaration by mkgal doesn't make the biblical cut.
Nope. I'm not saying that. At all.By quoting John 1:29 are you saying that since Jesus' death , resurrection and ascension no one commits sins anymore?
No....I (and the article I shared) am saying that was the New Covenant Jesus confirmed for 7 years. It's not that He "made a covenant" in 27 AD....He demonstrated that He was the promised Messiah the prophets and the Law spoke of. He fulfilled all the previous requirements that humanity could not fulfill. He was the New Adam....the seed of Abraham....the Son of David....the branch that would bear fruit.....the Lion of Judah.....the root of David.As for you article. Are you saying that the covenant messiah supposedly established with Israel for the thatat 7 is not the new covenant? Others who hold your similar belief disagree with you.
but can you show me in teh bible where Jesus made a covenant with Israel in 27 AD? Making a covenant is not simply preaching repent for teh kingdom of heaven is at hand!
I do believe Jesus confirmed the promised New Covenant (not a "7 year covenant")....also known as the everlasting covenant or covenant of peace.And if you do not accept this non written about 7 year covenant is the new covenant- where do you get you info that a covenant was actually made and Israel only had 7 years to accept the gospel. what does that even mean in real life terms anyway? You and BAB and others believe that Israel rejected that 7 year covenant Jesus made with them that is not written about, so what are the consequences for that rejection?
mkgal1 said:.....I'd argue that "Daniel's people" were the ancient biblical Israelites that were in unity with Daniel's prayer.
Agree. I'm with you at this point.I agree! they were the people of the twelve tribes. It was those people (Israelis) who:
1. sinned and done wrong
2. acted wickedly
3. rebelled
4. turned from the commandments
5. Not listened to the prophets
You just posted you agreed with me, but are now adding personal commentary to what's written as an argument against what you just agreed with.YOu can argue all you wish, but these are people whom every prophet spoke of and Jesus spoke of. Not some mystical magical "remnant" that later became part of teh church.
Sorry but if we believe god created grammar, Daniel is speaking of teh whole nation of Israel and not just a faithful remnant. These charges are not found in faithful people right?
The groups you're referring to aren't mutually exclusive. The "mystical magical remnant" is how Jesus was brought into this world (literally....Mary, Jesus' mother is from the 12 tribes) and were the eyewitnesses of His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. I believe Scripture testifies they were definitely the remnant of the 12 tribes of ancient Israel that were brought into the everlasting Kingdom. What was promised:nolidad said:YOu can argue all you wish, but these are people whom every prophet spoke of and Jesus spoke of. Not some mystical magical "remnant" that later became part of teh church.
I'm concluding it mainly based on verse 27, and the fact I'm convinced that everything in that verse is pertaining to the 70th week. The problem, one reason why we oftentimes get nowhere in these discussions is because the side that sees these 70 weeks as gapless, pretty much refuse to consider that all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week. No reasonable person, if agreeing that all of verse 27 is meaning the 70th week, is then going to argue that the 70 weeks involve no gaps. If one inserts Christ into verse 27, while at the same time agreeing all of verse 27 pertains to the 70th week, how then are they going to make this part fit without it involving a gap-----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate?
Let's see if it might work without it involving a gap. The following is assuming Christ is meant in this verse and that the entire verse pertains to events during the 70th week.
And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week during the 70th week: and in the midst of the 70th week Christ shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations someone shall make it desolate the remainder of the 70th week, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
or this instead---
And Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week during the 70th week: and in the midst of the 70th week Christ shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,(insert a gap here) and for the overspreading of abominations someone shall make it desolate the remainder of the 70th week, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
To me, only the latter would be agreeing with the text if Christ is meant in verse 27 and that the entire verse pertains to events transpiring during the 70th week.
Or if not this, since this at least proves there would have to be a gap no matter what, if all of verse 27 is pertaining to the 70th week----Christ is not meant in verse 27, thus no gap in the middle of the 70th week, but that the gap is instead between the 69th and 70th week since it wouldn't make sense to apply verse 27 immediatedly after the first 69 weeks if nothing in verse 27 pertains to Christ.
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