7 Day creation- literal or figurative?

miamited · Feb 10, 2016

-57 said:
I don't really consider the old earthers as liars, even though they are spreading a falsehood...because they believe they are spreading the truth.

Hi 57,

Just curious. Do you think that God sees it that way? If God sees things as you do, then won't all the muslims be given eternal life. They are also teaching what they believe to be the truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

-57 · Feb 11, 2016

DivineMarissa said:
7 day creation isn't literal. We have scientific evidence that the earth 4.5 billion years old. Anyone who disagrees with that fact is simply being indenial.

Indenial? I think not. Why do they find soft tissue in some dinosaur bones that are supposed to be 65+ MY's old? Why do they still find C14 in coal if the coal is as old as claimed? The list goes on and on.

The real question is...why do you deny the bible?

-57 · Feb 11, 2016

miamited said:
Hi 57,

Just curious. Do you think that God sees it that way? If God sees things as you do, then won't all the muslims be given eternal life. They are also teaching what they believe to be the truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Can you lie if you don't know you're lying?

miamited · Feb 11, 2016

-57 said:
Can you lie if you don't know you're lying?

Hi 57,

Well, maybe it's the way the question is posed. Is lying a matter of not telling the truth or is it only a lie if you know that you are not telling the truth? So, let's just say that they are not telling the truth.

I do agree that there is certainly an argument to be made that lying must be accompanied by intent and knowledge of the truth. However, Paul writes in his letter to the Romans that we do know the truth. Certainly everyone who has read the Scriptures does know the truth. Whether they believe what they have read to be the truth, is up for grabs.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

It would appear that Paul believes that all men should know the truth because God has made it 'plain' to them. Of course, this also has some application to the issue of this thread. God has made it 'plain' to us. However, as Paul says, we choose to suppress the truth because of our wickedness. We suppress the truth because of our anxiety about going out before the people of the world and standing up to learned and knowledgeable scientists and telling them that what they believe to know just isn't so. We fear looking foolish before our peers. I mean, after all, great and learned people who have given of their lives and money to study in great universities are telling us with complete assurance that it just isn't at all possible or conceivable that the creation, all that exists in this realm, is only some 6,000 years old. Anyone who believes such a thing is foolish. They stand against all of the known scientific fact finding across the face of the earth as regards this matter.

But, God has made it plain to them. He has caused to be written in simple and plain language that He has the power, wisdom and glory to create whole existences out of nothing. That He can and has done it in the span of six days. Then He has given us an accounting of the genealogies by which we may have some general idea of 'when' that six day period was.

God has made it plain to them. But because of their wickedness they suppress the truth.

So, if what God has written about the creation is true in its most plain and simple understanding, but we refuse to believe it for whatever reason, God says that it is our wickedness that causes us to suppress that truth.

Each and everyone of those who have posted on this thread have read the account of the creation in the writing of Genesis. We each know the truth. We have read it. Most of us have read it several times and studied it ad infinitum. We know the truth! It is, according to God, because of our wickedness that we choose to suppress the truth.

That wickedness is purely and simply our refusal to believe God. That choice to deny the truth of God comes from the wisdom of man. The wisdom of man has told us that the plain and simple understanding of the account of the creation just cannot possibly be true. That it is ludicrous to think that the fiery stars and huge masses of planets have only existed for about 6,000 years. If you believe that, people all across the globe say that you're a fool. No one wants to be thought a fool among men. So, because of our wickedness we choose to suppress the truth. We choose rather to figure out ways that God's plain and simple truth must be more convoluted and unknowable so that we can align God's truth with man's truth. God sees that as wickedness in us. Abraham's righteousness was declared because he believed God.

So, the question becomes, will we believe God or man? God says that He created this realm in six days. He repeated at least twice in the law that He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days. I'm going with six days. Six ordinary, regular days. Defined as a day has always been defined: one full rotation of a planetary body upon its axis. No sun, moon or stars need be present in all of the universe for the earth to have a day. No, I don't believe that the earth spun at some super, super slow rate to make the day trillions of hours long. It isn't necessary for God that a long time pass for Him to create something that, from its very inception, is perfect in every way. He can merely sweep His hand, so to speak, across the expanse of black, empty space without end and within moments that purely black, empty, void space is filled with countless stars and planets and all else that makes up the physical realm in which we live.

And why did God do it? Because His foundational intention was to make a place where a creature that He would call man, could live. He 'built' this entire realm with all of its stars and the planet earth with all of its flora and fauna for the singular and express purpose of creating a realm in which a creature who needed food and oxygen to live, could live. A creature that He wanted to love and nurture and provide for in a two way relationship in which the creature would also love and honor and glorify Him.

But, we don't. Instead we invent theories that enable us to suppress the truth and believe the lie. We rob God of the glory that is due Him because we water down the majesty of what He has done. We convince ourselves that, yes, God did create some things, but most of what we see upon the earth today evolved through some ordinary and completely explainable natural processes.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Feb 11, 2016

DivineMarissa said:
7 day creation isn't literal. We have scientific evidence that the earth 4.5 billion years old. Anyone who disagrees with that fact is simply being indenial.

Hi DM,

Thanks for your input. You have proven my point. Even among 'christians', those who stand with the plain and simple understanding of the creation account, are made to appear foolish and unknowing. And, of course, you use exactly the same 'proof' that I wrote of. Man's wisdom has proven to us that God's truth cannot possibly be true.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

-57 · Feb 11, 2016

miamited said:
Hi 57,

Well, maybe it's the way the question is posed. Is lying a matter of not telling the truth or is it only a lie if you know that you are not telling the truth? So, let's just say that they are not telling the truth.

I do agree that there is certainly an argument to be made that lying must be accompanied by intent and knowledge of the truth. However, Paul writes in his letter to the Romans that we do know the truth. Certainly everyone who has read the Scriptures does know the truth. Whether they believe what they have read to be the truth, is up for grabs.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

It would appear that Paul believes that all men should know the truth because God has made it 'plain' to them. Of course, this also has some application to the issue of this thread. God has made it 'plain' to us. However, as Paul says, we choose to suppress the truth because of our wickedness. We suppress the truth because of our anxiety about going out before the people of the world and standing up to learned and knowledgeable scientists and telling them that what they believe to know just isn't so. We fear looking foolish before our peers. I mean, after all, great and learned people who have given of their lives and money to study in great universities are telling us with complete assurance that it just isn't at all possible or conceivable that the creation, all that exists in this realm, is only some 6,000 years old. Anyone who believes such a thing is foolish. They stand against all of the known scientific fact finding across the face of the earth as regards this matter.

But, God has made it plain to them. He has caused to be written in simple and plain language that He has the power, wisdom and glory to create whole existences out of nothing. That He can and has done it in the span of six days. Then He has given us an accounting of the genealogies by which we may have some general idea of 'when' that six day period was.

God has made it plain to them. But because of their wickedness they suppress the truth.

So, if what God has written about the creation is true in its most plain and simple understanding, but we refuse to believe it for whatever reason, God says that it is our wickedness that causes us to suppress that truth.

Each and everyone of those who have posted on this thread have read the account of the creation in the writing of Genesis. We each know the truth. We have read it. Most of us have read it several times and studied it ad infinitum. We know the truth! It is, according to God, because of our wickedness that we choose to suppress the truth.

That wickedness is purely and simply our refusal to believe God. That choice to deny the truth of God comes from the wisdom of man. The wisdom of man has told us that the plain and simple understanding of the account of the creation just cannot possibly be true. That it is ludicrous to think that the fiery stars and huge masses of planets have only existed for about 6,000 years. If you believe that, people all across the globe say that you're a fool. No one wants to be thought a fool among men. So, because of our wickedness we choose to suppress the truth. We choose rather to figure out ways that God's plain and simple truth must be more convoluted and unknowable so that we can align God's truth with man's truth. God sees that as wickedness in us. Abraham's righteousness was declared because he believed God.

So, the question becomes, will we believe God or man? God says that He created this realm in six days. He repeated at least twice in the law that He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days. I'm going with six days. Six ordinary, regular days. Defined as a day has always been defined: one full rotation of a planetary body upon its axis. No sun, moon or stars need be present in all of the universe for the earth to have a day. No, I don't believe that the earth spun at some super, super slow rate to make the day trillions of hours long. It isn't necessary for God that a long time pass for Him to create something that, from its very inception, is perfect in every way. He can merely sweep His hand, so to speak, across the expanse of black, empty space without end and within moments that purely black, empty, void space is filled with countless stars and planets and all else that makes up the physical realm in which we live.

And why did God do it? Because His foundational intention was to make a place where a creature that He would call man, could live. He 'built' this entire realm with all of its stars and the planet earth with all of its flora and fauna for the singular and express purpose of creating a realm in which a creature who needed food and oxygen to live, could live. A creature that He wanted to love and nurture and provide for in a two way relationship in which the creature would also love and honor and glorify Him.

But, we don't. Instead we invent theories that enable us to suppress the truth and believe the lie. We rob God of the glory that is due Him because we water down the majesty of what He has done. We convince ourselves that, yes, God did create some things, but most of what we see upon the earth today evolved through some ordinary and completely explainable natural processes.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I understand your point...but you're really dissecting it here.

Aman777 · Feb 11, 2016

miamited said:
↑
7 day creation isn't literal. We have scientific evidence that the earth 4.5 billion years old. Anyone who disagrees with that fact is simply being indenial.
Hi DM,

Thanks for your input. You have proven my point. Even among 'christians', those who stand with the plain and simple understanding of the creation account, are made to appear foolish and unknowing. And, of course, you use exactly the same 'proof' that I wrote of. Man's wisdom has proven to us that God's truth cannot possibly be true.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

It's because some don't know what Day it is. The Big Bang of our cosmos was 13.8 Billion years ago in man's time on God's 3rd Day. Gen 2:4 The FIRST Stars lit up on the 4th Day some 560 Million years, in man's time, after the Big Bang. Our Solar system is but some 6 Billion years old, showing that it came together at the end of God's 5th Day, since life first appeared in the water some 3.77 Billion years ago. Gen 1:21

God has but 7 Days/Ages and we live today on the 6th Creative Day which will NOT end until Jesus returns and changes all creatures into vegetarians. Gen 1:30 and Isa 11:7 That is God's Literal Truth IF you actually know what Day it is.

miamited · Feb 11, 2016

Hi Aman,

Well, I hear you man! I just don't agree with you.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Feb 11, 2016

-57 said:
I understand your point...but you're really dissecting it here.

Hi 57,

I've always thought that's what 'being discerning' was all about. Did Paul really intend to infer to Timothy that rightly dividing the word and studying to show oneself approved was merely a shallow surface study, thinking and understanding?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

-57 · Feb 12, 2016

miamited said:
Hi 57,

I've always thought that's what 'being discerning' was all about. Did Paul really intend to infer to Timothy that rightly dividing the word and studying to show oneself approved was merely a shallow surface study, thinking and understanding?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I thought my point was simple.....if you did't understand something was false and you presented it as truth..then you're not lying. There is no intention to deceive.

miamited · Feb 12, 2016

-57 said:
I thought my point was simple.....if you did't understand something was false and you presented it as truth..then you're not lying. There is no intention to deceive.

Hi 57,

Right! I then agreed that an argument could be made that lying may need to be accompanied by intent and that we should just say that they are not telling the truth. I then went on to explain how Paul seemed to think that we all do know the truth because God has made it plain to us. Therefore, if we do know the truth, but choose to suppress it, as the Scriptures say, we would be lying under the parameters of the definition.

I also went into some detail about how our suppression of the truth, especially by those who we look up to for their knowledge concerning certain things, causes many a 'christian' to choose to believe the lie in order to be more 'acceptable' to others.

We've been taught that the 'natural laws' of all things cannot be broken, but that isn't true. God has broken natural laws several times. He caused water to stand straight up without anything to hold it in place. It is a natural law that water seeks to level itself and cannot do this. He caused the sun to stand still in the sky and at another time caused its shadow to back up. Both, impossibilities according to all known natural laws. He caused a child to be born without the natural processes of a sexual union. Therefore, when we try to describe something that God did (the creation) all the known natural laws are out of the equation. But, man tries to tell us that this just isn't so. We are here at this point in which we live today, because of the great, great passage of time in which the 'natural laws' have done what they do.

Paul warned us of being taken in by such ideas. In his letter to the Colossians he spends a good bit of time discussing the creation and all that is included in it. Then in Colossians 2:8 he warns us - his wording is actually that we are to see to it that no one takes us captive - by philosophies that depend on the traditions of men and the basic principles of this world.

Many, many are right now held captive, and have made more shallow the glory and majesty of God, because they have robbed Him of the praise and glory that is due Him for what He did in the very beginning that we might even exist. They do this because they have believed knowledge that is based on the basic principles of this world and not on Christ.

My apologies if I seem long winded, but it has long been an understanding of mine that this issue of the creation and what we believe and allow in our praise and glory of what God has done, may well be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, deception of all mankind.

Because we explain away the truth about the universe in a way that depends on the natural properties of the world, many people turn away from knowing God or even allowing that He exists altogether. If we believed and taught that God created just as the Scriptures declare this realm in which we live, then many, many more, I believe, would come to a place in their lives where they would have to address the issue. If the majority of mankind believed God's account of how and why we are here, then those in the minority would be more inclined to give serious consideration to the subject.

As it is, those that we hold as wise and learned councilors in such matters, give us an easy out and we take it. God is not pleased.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Aman777 · Feb 12, 2016

miamited said:
Hi Aman,

Well, I hear you man! I just don't agree with you.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

It goes against your religion/belief and does not agree with Scripture, Science and History. Mine does. Amen?

JoeP222w · Feb 12, 2016

pinkmatter said:
I'm after thoughts and opinions Gods 7-day creation. Did Moses right it as a narrative to the Israelites? Is Genesis all figurative language?

Thoughts and opinions on the controversial topic!

Creation is literal/actual. It is not figurative or metaphor.

-57 · Feb 12, 2016

miamited said:
Hi 57,

Right! I then agreed that an argument could be made that lying may need to be accompanied by intent and that we should just say that they are not telling the truth. I then went on to explain how Paul seemed to think that we all do know the truth because God has made it plain to us. Therefore, if we do know the truth, but choose to suppress it, as the Scriptures say, we would be lying under the parameters of the definition.

The bible is speaking about God in this instance. If someone asked me the score of Super Bowl 50 and I said the Broncos won 24 to 9....and I said 24 to 9 because I heard a sportscaster say 24 to 9..would I be lying?

miamited said:
I also went into some detail about how our suppression of the truth, especially by those who we look up to for their knowledge concerning certain things, causes many a 'christian' to choose to believe the lie in order to be more 'acceptable' to others.

I have no problem with that..but it's not across the board. Some Christians believe a lie because they never heard the truth.

miamited said:
We've been taught that the 'natural laws' of all things cannot be broken, but that isn't true. God has broken natural laws several times. He caused water to stand straight up without anything to hold it in place. It is a natural law that water seeks to level itself and cannot do this. He caused the sun to stand still in the sky and at another time caused its shadow to back up. Both, impossibilities according to all known natural laws. He caused a child to be born without the natural processes of a sexual union. Therefore, when we try to describe something that God did (the creation) all the known natural laws are out of the equation. But, man tries to tell us that this just isn't so. We are here at this point in which we live today, because of the great, great passage of time in which the 'natural laws' have done what they do.

Sad to say but there are christians today who don't believe in miracles.

miamited said:
Paul warned us of being taken in by such ideas. In his letter to the Colossians he spends a good bit of time discussing the creation and all that is included in it. Then in Colossians 2:8 he warns us - his wording is actually that we are to see to it that no one takes us captive - by philosophies that depend on the traditions of men and the basic principles of this world.

Many, many are right now held captive, and have made more shallow the glory and majesty of God, because they have robbed Him of the praise and glory that is due Him for what He did in the very beginning that we might even exist. They do this because they have believed knowledge that is based on the basic principles of this world and not on Christ.

My apologies if I seem long winded, but it has long been an understanding of mine that this issue of the creation and what we believe and allow in our praise and glory of what God has done, may well be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, deception of all mankind.

Yes, there are many that have been deceived and exchanged the truth for a lie.

miamited said:
Because we explain away the truth about the universe in a way that depends on the natural properties of the world, many people turn away from knowing God or even allowing that He exists altogether. If we believed and taught that God created just as the Scriptures declare this realm in which we live, then many, many more, I believe, would come to a place in their lives where they would have to address the issue. If the majority of mankind believed God's account of how and why we are here, then those in the minority would be more inclined to give serious consideration to the subject.

What makes it difficult is that the lie is force fed to our students in our schools.

miamited said:
As it is, those that we hold as wise and learned councilors in such matters, give us an easy out and we take it. God is not pleased.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Feb 12, 2016

-57 said:
The bible is speaking about God in this instance. If someone asked me the score of Super Bowl 50 and I said the Broncos won 24 to 9....and I said 24 to 9 because I heard a sportscaster say 24 to 9..would I be lying?

You wouldn't be telling the truth. You decide.

-57 said:
I have no problem with that..but it's not across the board. Some Christians believe a lie because they never heard the truth.

Well, of course for me, this becomes part of the dividing line between 'christians' and those who are 'born again'. Christians today are just people who go to church. Donald Trump says that he is a 'christian' and he's a man that, as far as I know, isn't often found in worship. In a public interview he denied that he needed forgiveness for any sins and then mocked the act of communion. I'm sorry, but there just isn't anyway that someone who near constantly denigrates and disparages others as he does can be born again. He may be a 'christian', after all, all that takes is for the mouth to say the words. But to be born again is something that happens in our spirit with His Spirit. To be born again means that we actively have the Holy Spirit living within us to convict us of sin and righteousness. To be born again is a steadfast requirement of being a child of God.

However, according to Paul's words, all men know the truth. A christian, who is more than 6 months down the narrow and straight path, and hasn't felt compelled by the Holy Spirit living within them to read and study the Scriptures for themselves, but rather relies on what others tell them, has no excuse.

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet is one of the first truths that the Holy Spirit compelled me to understand and seek knowledge from. I'm always listening to pastors, teachers, etc. and constantly running through my mind is a check system. Verifying what I am hearing with what the Scriptures say.

-57 said:
Sad to say but there are christians today who don't believe in miracles.

There are 'christians' today who believe about anything. They have been taken captive by vain philosophy that is based on the traditions of men and the natural properties of this world. Setting aside all the knowledge, wisdom and truth of Christ for the knowledge, wisdom and truth of men. The question that each and every one of us needs to answer, if eternal life is what we seek, is: Have I been born again?

Nicodemus was a great man of God before Israel. He was a part of the lawgivers and enforcers in all of Israel. He was, just as we look to scientists today for the answers to the natural properties of things, who the people looked to for guidance and wisdom of the things of God.

Yet, Jesus said that he (Nicodemus) was amazed when he told him that he must be born again. He even chastised him for being a leader in Israel and not understanding these things. Then he clearly told him, "I tell you the truth, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God". John writes to us that only those born of the Spirit have the right to be called children of God. All others may claim to be children of God just as the crowd in Israel claimed of themselves, but Jesus was also clear to them. "Your father is the devil! You seek to do his will."

When Jesus spoke of the day of his Father's judgment he told the disciples, "Look, not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will be saved. Only those who do the will of the Father in heaven". He also told them that on that day there would be many, let me repeat please, many who would be crying out to him, "Lord, Lord. Did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and perform great miracles?" These were obviously people who had checked the religion box on their census: Christian.

-57 said:
Yes, there are many that have been deceived and exchanged the truth for a lie.

What makes it difficult is that the lie is force fed to our students in our schools.

That is why God instructed the parents in Israel to teach their children the truth about him. My son went to a christian school for his first 7 years of education. It was a sacrifice that I was happy to make financially and I realize that not everyone can do it, but...

I reinforced and taught him the things of God at home. Instead of reading fairy tale bedtime stories, we'd read some of the Scriptures before he went to bed. We'd talk about the things of God when we got up and when we laid down and as we traveled.

Today, he's bright and intelligent. He graduated with a 3.54GPA from a top notch college with a bachelors in computer engineering and holds down, less than a year after graduating, a job that pays him in excess of $70,000. But if you ask my son about the creation of this realm, he'll faithfully tell you that it is a relatively young creation that has existed for about 6,000 years by the will and the power of the God who created it for a home for man and that same God will also judge us in the due course of time.

Do all of his friends believe it? No. But I have often explained to him that God isn't interested in whether you are in agreement with the general thinking of the world. As a matter of fact, God says that being like the world is anathema to Him. So, I've told him, you need to make a choice. Is it more important for you to be in step with the world or following after God's own heart?

Any parent, who is born again, who allows the school system to be in charge of their child's spiritual knowledge and understanding -- isn't.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited · Feb 12, 2016

Hi again 57,

I just wanted to relay another story to you that I feel had the hand of God all over it. When my son was in high school (we had taken him out of the christian school after seventh grade and put him in public school) he was about to begin his senior year and needed one more science credit and it was required that one of his credits be a natural science, which he hadn't had. When he told me about this and we discussed the class he would need, I warned him that he would probably run up against 'evolution, old earth' teachings and to be wary and considerate of what they explained to him as truth, as likely not.

I told him that when tested he would have to give the answers that they had taught him, if anything were asked about such things as evolution or age of the universe. He would, of course, be lying and I believe God saw and understood this.

Well, the day came for us to go to the high school gymnasium and go throughout the various tables where he could speak with the teachers and sign up for his next year's classes. Shortly after we arrived there, his chemistry teacher came up to him and said that he'd really like to have him take another year of chemistry. He told him that he had promise and was one of the better students in his last class, which only had about 10 students. He then told him, without any discussion with me or my son, that if he would take another year of chemistry he would get him out of his natural science requirement. Man, I have to tell you that at that very moment I was, in my mind, praising and glorifying God. He had seen our delimma and had sent an answer.

Now, many probably won't see that as a 'blessing' directly from God, but I can tell you that I did and gave God all the glory and praise.

God has been good to me. He has blessed me far and away above what I deserve. I'm a sinner! Yet, God has been merciful to me and blessed me. I faithfully believe that part of the reason that God has so blessed me with all that He has and carried me along in this life, is the same reason that he did it for Abraham. I believe God!

I believe that God created this entire realm in six days. Fully mature and ready to take on the challenge for which it was all created, a home for mankind. I believe God! I believe that He did flood the whole earth and that every single land creature and person died in that great flood except for the seven with Noah. I believe God! I believe that He brought the whole people of Israel out of Egypt and carried them through the desert to the land of promise. That in order to do that He caused water to turn into real blood. He caused it to be so dark in Egypt that one couldn't see their hand before their face, and yet, just down the street in Goshen it was as bright a day as it had ever been. He literally set an invisible wall all round Egypt that blocked any sunlight or moonlight from entering in while the rest of the world enjoyed just regular days. I believe God! He did cause a great deep sea to literally part and on both the right hand and the left hand of those passing through there stood a wall of water at least several dozen feet high. Kind of like walking through a canyon of buildings in any large city. I believe God! I believe that He did cause the sun to stand still over Israel. How He did it I haven't a clue. Did the earth stop rotating or the sun suddenly start revolving around the earth at the same speed as the earth's rotation, I don't know how. I just know that He did. I believe God! I believe that He did cause a shadow thrown by the sun to back up. Again, how He did it, I haven't a clue. I believe God!

I live. You live. Every human being and plant and animal on the face of the earth has life and a place to live it because -- God! No, none of these living things evolved from some other life form. No, we could not live one single day more without God. Yes, the scientists and learned men of the world just don't understand. They believe with all their heart that the answers to how and why we exist can be explained by the natural processes of things. I, on the other hand, am fully convinced and confirmed that about 6,000 years ago God created this realm. Our universe did not exist 10,000 years ago. There were no planets, stars, plants, animals or people -- nothing. But God, for His own pleasure and by His own power, wisdom and glory created. And friend please don't miss this one most very important point: He created in order that we might love, honor and cherish Him for who He is and all that He has done.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hoghead1 · Feb 12, 2016

I understand what you believe, Miamited. Certainly, sharing beliefs is part of a theological discussion group. However, you also need to provide some evidence. But where is yours? What are your underlying assumptions? Are you assuming the Bible has to be an accurate geophysical witness? If so, what do you do about the biblical cosmology with its flat earth at the center of everything? The major Protestant Reformer Calvin, in his commentary on Genesis, said that God does not intend to give us a science lesson in Scripture. There are all kinds of other options here that you haven't addressed or explored.

miamited · Feb 13, 2016

Hoghead1 said:
I understand what you believe, Miamited. Certainly, sharing beliefs is part of a theological discussion group. However, you also need to provide some evidence. But where is yours? What are your underlying assumptions? Are you assuming the Bible has to be an accurate geophysical witness? If so, what do you do about the biblical cosmology with its flat earth at the center of everything? The major Protestant Reformer Calvin, in his commentary on Genesis, said that God does not intend to give us a science lesson in Scripture. There are all kinds of other options here that you haven't addressed or explored.

Hi hoghead,

My evidences are the Scriptures. God said that He created this realm in six days. On day 6 He created Adam and then carefully listed the genealogical line from Adam through Abraham's descendants into Egypt. From there we find a fairly accurate timeline within our known historical records. We know approximately when all the kings of Israel lived. We can surely be off by a couple of hundred years, but not thousands or millions. I believe God. I believe that He gave us the written Scriptures for a purpose. That purpose was that if we were interested to know, we could know why we are here and how and when we got here. We are here by the will of God. Created to live eternally with Him, just as the angels do.

No, God did not intend to write a science book. He merely wrote to us the truth. Science is a manmade ideology through which we have studied all the things that God has done, but sadly, come out the other end with the wrong conclusions.

I understand that you don't agree. Most people don't. Even many who wave the banner of christian don't. That's ok with me. I was not created to agree with the world, but to agree with God.

Also, you have no idea the ideas and options that I have addressed or explored. I think I have, at one time or another, investigated about everyone that has been set before me, but I'm always willing to listen to anything new that you might feel you have to offer.

People hide behind this mantra that 'God didn't write a science book'. What does that even mean? God wrote the truth. Science has nothing to do with it. You apparently are one of the many who believe that the answers given us through man's endeavor to study the physical realm in what is known as 'science', has given us the correct answers. I'm sorry, but I don't. Yes, I have read, looked at and weighed the scientific arguments.

I understand that we know that under normal circumstance light travels at a given speed and that based on that normal speed of light we couldn't see the stars unless they were billions of years old. However, I'm one who believes that when God wants to do something, whatever it is, it does not follow the normal circumstances that science studies.

Can you explain to me how two walls of water stood on either side of a phalanx of thousands of people for at least an hour? Can you explain to me how the sun stood still in the sky over Israel? You see, the truth is, that you are the one who refuses to accept the evidence given dozens of times in the Scriptures that when God does things they are outside of the normal operation of our physical realm. Similarly, I have no problem understanding that when God swept His had across the inky black universe and created all of the stars, and I understand that He created them that we could see them to determine signs and seasons, that He has the power to make a star appear instantaneously billions of light years away from the earth and in that same instant have the light of that star visible to the eye of man upon the earth.

Go ahead. Fight your war against such teachings and understandings, but understand that the sin of Satan and mankind is that they refused to believe God. The Scriptures speak often a warning concerning our being deceived. Don't be deceived by the wisdom of man. Believe God!

BTW, I'm sure Calvin was a reasonably good person, but let me ask you for your evidence. How do you know that Calvin knew the truth?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hoghead1 · Feb 13, 2016

Well, first let me ask you a question? How do you know that anything you say about Scripture is actually true? You assume it is and has to be inerrant. Why? You are simply holding here the inerrancy theory of Scripture. It is a human-made, possibly fallible theory. When tested out, it doesn't work, due to the large number of contradictions in Scripture alone. But then again, Scripture never claimed that it was all inerrant, to start with. Inerrancy people assume God dictated Scripture to purely passive scribes who wrote it all down just as God said it. Where is your evidence? Scripture never describers the process of inspiration. See, all we are dealing with here is your theory of how God should operate. But who's to say you are correct? There are other options. Maybe God works through evolution. Maybe God is content with an errant Scripture. That being the case, we should rest content with the matter.

OzSpen · Feb 13, 2016

Hoghead1 said:
I understand what you believe, Miamited. Certainly, sharing beliefs is part of a theological discussion group. However, you also need to provide some evidence. But where is yours? What are your underlying assumptions? Are you assuming the Bible has to be an accurate geophysical witness? If so, what do you do about the biblical cosmology with its flat earth at the center of everything? The major Protestant Reformer Calvin, in his commentary on Genesis, said that God does not intend to give us a science lesson in Scripture. There are all kinds of other options here that you haven't addressed or explored.

Hoghead1,

I come to this conversation late, but I find some contradictions or anomalies in what you state here.

You state, 'You also need to provide evidence'. I agree. But what did you do? (a) You ask, 'Are you assuming the Bible has to be an accurate geophysical witness?' You provided not one piece of evidence from Ted to cause you to ask this question of Ted. (b) 'What do you do about the biblical cosmology with its flat earth at the center of everything?' You provide no evidence to cause you to ask this question. Where does biblical cosmology state that a 'flat earth' is 'at the center of everything'? (c) You say Calvin's commentary on Genesis said 'God does not intend to give us a science lesson in Scripture'. However, this is your assertion and you provide no reference with bibliographical source for this statement. Evidence is lacking.
You ask of Ted, 'What are your underlying assumptions?' Surely a person in a post on a public forum is not expected to provide 'underlying assumptions' in everything or anything he or she posts. I note in this one post that you did not provide your own 'underlying assumptions'. Why not, when you require it of the other person?
Be fair. When you state, 'There are all kinds of other options here that you haven't addressed or explored', that is expected on a public forum when issues are addressed only one or two at a time. In my short response to you here, I do not choose to address and explore 'all kinds of other options'. That's because of the nature of a public forum, attention span of readers, and my time to engage with you. There is any number of reasons why someone would limit the options discussed on CF.com.

I call on you to apply the same standard to yourself as you want to apply to other posters.

Oz

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