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FreezBee

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ForeverEndeavor said:
This calls for wisdom: Let the person who has understanding figure out the number of the beast, because it is the number of a person. Its number is 666.
(Rev 13:18)


OK, I'm sure this topic has been done to death but I'm new so here goes:
What do you think this number is? Is it litteral? Is this some kind of code? It seems to be telling us a riddle. One that someone with wisdom should be able to figure out.
First: congratulations with your 30th birthday :clap: :clap: :clap:

Then: I admit that I haven't read through this entire thread, so the info I have to supply may already have been given. But if then, here it is:

1 Kings 10 said:
14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents, 15 not including the revenues from merchants and traders and from all the Arabian kings and the governors of the land.

(There is an exact parallel in 2 Chronicles 9).

Since Revelation has many allusion to the OT, it might be possible that the numbers 666 refers to this place. The number would then signify a kings - or an emperors! - income.

After the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 ce the emperor Vespasian redirected the Jewish temple tax to the Jupiter temple in Rome.

However, Vespasian and his immediate successor Titus were not very zealous about actually collecting the tax. Domitian, however, who was to actually bring the projects started by his two prdecessor into reality, was in need of some fundrising, so he was much more zealous about the collection of this "Jewish tax".

Remember that Solomon spent much of his income on building the first Jerusalem temple, while the new Jerusalem in Revelation has no temple!

Just though this might be of interest :)


cheers

- FreezBee
 
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parousia70

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yeshuasavedme said:
Actually, only preterists need to prove an early date -cause they depend on it for their doctrine.
Why then are many futurists so rabid in their insistance of the late date, when it makes no difference to their eschatology?

What do you care when it was written?
 
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parousia70

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yeshuasavedme said:
Conclusion
The Domitianic date is the overwhelmingly accepted view of scholarship in our day and throughout most of church history.

That is patently false.
The early date is by far the view accepted by the majority of scholars.
 
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parousia70

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OttawaUk said:
Paraousia, you continue to dodge my questions. Answer these simple questions.

That's funny....
Still waiting for your late date sources..........
Artful dodger that you are....

I'm agreeing with you that John wrote this durin Nero's reign, fine!

If we agree on that, why are you still arguing against it?

1) The head of the beast which was 666 was "yet to come". Nero was already in power! How could he possibly be 666?
2) Nero would've been the sixth head of the Beast which WAS, because you're claiming he was in power at the time John wrote it.
3) Who in history were the 10 horns (kings) which got power under the beast?
4) Who was GIVEN power over the whole world?
5) Where was the image of the beast?
6) Where was the mark of the beast?
7) Where was the False Prophet?
8) Where did the 10 kings destroy Babylon the Great?
9) What city was Babylon the Great?

And finally, the most important question of all...

10) Why would God give John this Revelation and make it so rich in symbolism and according to you, be so wrong when explaining who was and is, when Nero was 666? It makes no sense.

Please provide the scripture refrences.
I want to be absolutely sure I am addressing the exact refrences you are citing.

Its like some of you have so stubbornly imbeded yourself in these views that you don't even ask yourself logical questions anymore.
Baloney

It cannot possibly be Nero, therefore your whole theory falls apart.

It absolutely is a refrence to Nero, personally, and the Roman Empire corporately.
 
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interpreter

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parousia70 said:
fancy claim. care to share your source?

The fact is, all belief in the late date rests upon one cryptic statment of Irenaeus, the Bishop of Lyons (130-200AD) who wrote his "Against Heresies" around AD 174. All those that hold to the late date do so because of this one uncertain phrase by Irenaeus, and it is highly controversial as to what Irenaeus said. Apologist H. Daniel Denham notes that the testimony of Irenaeus is considered the bastion of the evidence for the late date, and goes on to admit some problems with this "bastion of evidence."

C'mon Barry, if you are going to make these claims, do us a favor quote or link your sources, will ya?
OK. First, I miss-typed and should have said John was sentenced to Patmos in 82AD.
Besides Irenius and Eusebius, Jerome also states that John was sentenced to the Isle of Patmos by Domitian, and he tells us John was there from 82 AD to 96 AD.

Let me quote from my commentary on the Revelation:
When was the Revelation written?

The text makes it clear that the Revelation was written during a time of widespread persecution, which caused John to be exiled to the Isle of Patmos. Some commentaries say John went into exile during the persecution of the Church by Nero (circa 64 AD); but early commentators on the Revelation indicate that it was the Emperor Domitian who forced John into exile. Jerome, for example, says John was banished in the fourteenth year after Nero and liberated on the death of Domitian – which indicates John was on the Isle of Patmos from 82 to 96 AD [see footnote 4].

Also, Irenius is quoted by Eusebius as saying,

If however it were necessary to proclaim [the name of the Anti-Christ], … it would have been declared by him who witnessed the Revelation, for it is not long since it was witnessed, but almost in our own generation at the close of Domitian’s reign (Eusebius III, XVII).

There are those who have tried their best to discredit the testimonies of the early Church fathers in order to promote their own interpretation; but the Revelation could not have been written before 70 AD for several reasons. For one thing, the history books indicate the persecution of Christians under Nero was not Empire wide or long lasting. The first widespread and long-lasting persecution of Christians came during the reign of Domitian who was the first Emperor to declare himself a God and who instituted mandatory Caesar-worship which stayed in the law books for 228 years, until the coming of St. Constantine, the first Christian Emperor, who repealed the law, ending the persecution (and in so doing, changing the course of history forever).

The Revelation also, in the letters to the seven churches, indicates that there was a sizable number of Jews in Asia Minor, who caused trouble for the Church. The history books tell us that prior to 70 AD the Jews in Asia Minor were few in number, which makes it doubtful they wielded much influence with the authorities. But the Diaspora that occurred upon the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD resulted in a large influx of Jews into Asia Minor. In the case of Smyrna, the persecution of the Church by devilish Jews during the reign of Domitian is well documented (see Rev. 2:9,10).

Also, in the letters to the seven Asian churches, Jesus is clearly writing to mature churches that have a checkered history. Four of the churches are not mentioned anywhere else in the New Testament, so it is very doubtful that they were even in existence – much less mature -- in the time of Nero.

In addition, Jesus indicated to Peter that, of the twelve disciples, only John would live long enough to see Him return (see John 21:21). If Jesus had appeared to John during the reign of Nero, it is probable that many of the other disciples would have still been alive.

The most conclusive proof of all comes from looking at the names of the cities the Revelation is addressed to. Philadelphia, the City of Brotherly Love, went through three name changes in the first century. It was renamed Neocesarea in 17 AD; and then was renamed Flavia by Domitian’s father in 69 AD. It was not officially renamed Philadelphia until Domitian died -- in 96 AD – but historians tell us that the townsfolk increasingly disliked Domitian’s family name as his reign became increasingly brutal, and began clamoring in 95 AD to rename their city Philadelphia. All the name changes Philadelphia went through in the first century are clearly alluded to by Jesus in the letter to Philadelphia (see 3:7-13). Some of the townsfolk may have called their town Philadelphia as early as 95 AD, but tradition has it that John did not return from Patmos with the Revelation until after the death of Domitian in 96 AD, when Philadelphia was once again known by all the world as Philadelphia.

The preponderance of evidence indicates John penned the Revelation in 95 or 96 AD.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------



NOTES

4. Source: Wiliam Barclay’s Daily Study Bible Series, The Revelation, vol. 1, p. 51. Westminster Press, Philadelphia:1976.

(See the more of my commentary at http://www.geocities.com/bmidyet)
 
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OttawaUk

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Honestly, if you're asking me to spend all that time putting together that scripture when you know where it is, then forget it. I even went as far as agreeing with you on the date it was written, even though it makes no difference.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/t52907 sums it up best for me.

Seriously, wake up, the world around us is crumbling and to imagine one person rising out of the chaos into a world leader is not hard to fathom.

We have Peak Oil, we have terrorism, we have nuclear weapons, we have an extremely fragile world economy, we have disases, earthquakes, famines, we have world leaders taking our rights away slowly, we have New Agers waiting for the New Age Christ, we have bizarre signs and symbols all over the place, we have occult numerology hidden in corporate logos, we have movies saturating our heads with UFO invasions, we have mureder, hatred, death, war, rape, suicide, pornography, gay marriage, God being pushed out of government buildings and schools, bizarre weather, moves towards world government, Israel a nation again, the Middle East in the focus, and on and on and on.

And you say we're living in the millenium with Christ? Why you preterists are so blind to this, is beyond me.

WAKE UP!
 
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interpreter

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ForeverEndeavor said:
So the scriptures didn't really mean what they said? hail and fire mixed with blood isn't really hail and fire? great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea isn't really a mountain cast into the sea?
John had never seen anything like the bombs of WW II, and to him they looked like hail and fire mixed with blood. He had never seen submarines either.
Oh yeah, and what do you think these were:

(3) And out of the smoke came forth locusts onto the earth. And authority was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have authority.
(4) And they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months. And their torment was like a scorpion's torment when he stings a man.
(6) And in those days men will seek death and will not find it. And they will long to die, and death will flee from them.
(7) And the shapes of the locusts were like horses prepared for battle. And on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
(8) And they had hairs like the hairs of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions.
IMO, these verses foretell of the "winter war" between Finland and the USSR, which lasted exactly 5 months. The Russian soldiers lost a lot of toes due to frostbite, which is compared to a scorpian's sting. The Russians were atheists, and therefore did not have the seal of God in their foreheads whereas Finland was a Christian nation. Finland, a much smaller nation, was not considered capable of defeating the USSR, yet it happened, in large part due to the coldest winter on record (sent by God) that the Russians were not equipped for.
 
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ForeverEndeavor

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John had never seen anything like the bombs of WW II, and to him they looked like hail and fire mixed with blood. He had never seen submarines either.

So are you saying that John had never seen hail and fire? Hello?!
 
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yeshuasavedme

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parousia70 said:
Why then are many futurists so rabid in their insistance of the late date, when it makes no difference to their eschatology?

What do you care when it was written?
I don't.
It has nothing to do with Nero being the final man of sin, and is yet to be fullfilled.
It is your camp that absolutely must have the man of sin be Nero -and it absolutely cannot be Nero, was not Nero, and will not be Nero.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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parousia70 said:
That is patently false.
The early date is by far the view accepted by the majority of scholars.
You say it, but the evidence you gave was of modern men who have accepted a false view.
The early writers did not say so, and Thomas Ice gives links to the early authors and their agreement that Nero was not the man of sin.
It was not only Iraneaus, and the early authors agreed with Iraneaus, whom Ice cites.
So you are calling Thomas Ice a liar, but he is rebutting your men's doctrines, so where is you own personal evidence from your own personal research -not what you can dredge up from your preterist interpretation books, but actual historical statements by early writers?
 
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Loukuss

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OttawaUk,
why do you continue to bother? Sorry, brother, but sometimes you just gotta walk away. wasting your energy arguing with preterists is exactly that, a waste of energy. sorry, preterists brothers and sisters, i dont mean to be disrespectful at all, but arguing this is a waste of time since you have no strong arguments for your case. ive heard lots of arguments, but nothing with any weight.
 
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ForeverEndeavor

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LucasGoltz said:
OttawaUk,
why do you continue to bother? Sorry, brother, but sometimes you just gotta walk away. wasting your energy arguing with preterists is exactly that, a waste of energy. sorry, preterists brothers and sisters, i dont mean to be disrespectful at all, but arguing this is a waste of time since you have no strong arguments for your case. ive heard lots of arguments, but nothing with any weight.

:amen:
 
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justified

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not a single one of you has any business interpreting the text. First you study then you spout. And when you study, yoiu study all aspects, not just the ones that agree with you. And you learn greek and you know the fathers and you read the giants that came before us. How many of you read Charles' commentary on the Revelation? How many of you know who Charles was or are aware of the 30 years he spent researching and writing the thing? How about David Aune, and his monumental achievement? These are works which deserve to be treated, but not a single one I've listened to hear has referenced either of these guys. That's inexcusable and its lazy.
 
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ForeverEndeavor

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How many of you read Charles' commentary on the Revelation? How many of you know who Charles was or are aware of the 30 years he spent researching and writing the thing? How about David Aune, and his monumental achievement? These are works which deserve to be treated, but not a single one I've listened to hear has referenced either of these guys. That's inexcusable and its lazy.

Sorry man but I will not put my trust in someone's commentary just because they spent decades on it. There are alot of quacks who are full of it who also spent decades on commentaries.

Who cares what "Charles" says? What does the bible say?

Everything I need to know, I learned from the bible. It seems to me that alot of the problem here is that people are just accepting someone elses commentary (or teaching) as a fact without studying the scriptures before they make up their mind. Inexcusable to not read a bible commentary? Gimme a break!!! You'll have to do better than that!
 
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FreeinChrist

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parousia70 said:
That is patently false.
The early date is by far the view accepted by the majority of scholars.

By a majority of scholars over the past 2000 years? Or even now?
I already know you have a list of names - some are unknowns really - but a huge list could be made for the late as well.

As for the late date - here is a few:
Irenaeus:
Chapter XXVI.-

1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings."228 It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them


Chapter XXVIII
2. And for this reason the apostle says: "Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness."242 For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly "be cast into the lake of fire: "243 [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, "that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness; "whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: "And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



Chapter XXX
We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.


4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"260 as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."261


Ireneaus certainly didn't see Revelation as occuring in the past...

From Victorinus, (about 300 AD) Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, regarding chapter 10:

11. "And He says unto me, Thou must again prophesy to the peoples, and to the tongues, and to the nations, and to many kings."] He says this, because when John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labour of the mines by Caesar Domitian. [/b]There, therefore, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God.


From Eusebius (260 – 340 A.D), Church History, book 3:

Chapter XVII. The Persecution Under Domitian.

Domitian, having shown great cruelty toward many, and having unjustly put to death no small number of well-born and notable men at Rome, and having without cause exiled and confiscated the property of a great many other illustrious men, finally became a successor of Nero in his. hatred and enmity toward God. He was in fact the second that stirred up a persecution against us,(149) although his father Vespasian had undertaken nothing prejudicial to us.(150)

Chapter XVIII. The Apostle John and the Apocalypse.

1 It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word.(151)

2 Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John,(152) speaks as follows concerning him (153)

3 "If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian."

And:

10 But after Domitian had reigned fifteen years,(167) and Nerva had succeeded to the empire, the Roman Senate, according to the writers that record the history of those days,(168) voted that Domitian's honors should be cancelled, and that those who had been unjustly banished should return to their homes and have their property restored to them. It was at this time 11 that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition.(169)



Jerome ( 340 – 419),Lives of Illustrious men 9:6 :

In the fourteenth year then after Nero(65) Domitian having raised a second persecution he was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse, on which Justin Martyr and Irenaeus afterwards wrote commentaries. But Domitian having been put to death and his acts, on account of his excessive cruelty, having been annulled by the senate, he returned to Ephesus under Pertinax(66) and continuing there until the tithe of the emperor Trajan, founded and built churches throughout all Asia, and, worn out by old age, died in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord's passion and was buried near the same city.



Sulpicius Severus (c. 400), Sacred History Book 2, chapter 31

“Then, after an interval, Domitian, the son of Vespasian, persecuted the Christians. At this date, he banished John the Apostle and Evangelist to the island of Patmos. There he, secret mysteries having been revealed to him, wrote and published his book of the holy Revelation, which indeed is either foolishly or impiously not accepted by many.”




Though I disagree with John Calvin’s eschatology, he recognized who banished John.

From the commentary to the Geneva Bible:

“97 AD The seven churches are admonished of things present, somewhat before the end of Domitian his reign, and are forewarned of the persecution to come under Trajan for ten years, chapter 2,3.”


From John Wesley’s commentary, about 1765 :

‘I was in the island Patmos’ - In the reign of Domitian and of Nerva. And there he saw and wrote all that follows.


From John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible, regarding Rev. 1:7:

“Behold he cometh with clouds…
John carries on the account of Christ in his kingly office, one branch of which is to execute judgment; and describes him by a future coming of his, which cannot be understood of his coming to take vengeance on the Jews, at the time of Jerusalem's destruction, though that is sometimes expressed in such language, and with such circumstances, as here; see (Matthew 24:30) (26:64) ; because if this revelation was made to John, in the latter end of Domitian's reign, as is commonly reported by the ancients, and in the year 95 or 96, as chronologers generally place it, it must be upwards of twenty years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and therefore cannot relate to that; nor to his coming in a spiritual sense to convert the Jews in the latter day; for this coming is personal, and with clouds, when he will be seen by every eye;”




Current scholars who see it written in 95-96 AD are very many, including:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/revelation.html

Kummel provides the following information on dating the Apocalypse of John (Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 466-8):




According to the oldest tradition [in Iren., Adv. Haer. 5.30.3] Rev was written toward the end of the reign of Domitian (81-96). The book's own testimony indicates that it originated in the province of Asia in a time of severe oppression of Christians, which is most readily conceivable under Domitian. In the letters included in Rev, persecutions by the officials are expected (2:10), the blood of the martyrs has already flowed (2:13; 6:9), the whole of Christianity is threatened with a fearful danger (3:10): the immediate prospect is for the outbreak of a general persecution of Christians throughout the Roman Empire. In 17:6 John sees the harlot who is Babylon-Rome drunk on the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses of Jesus (cf. 6:10; 16:6; 18:24; 19:2). In 20:4 participation in the thousand-year reign is promised to the martyrs who have been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and for the word of God, and who have not worshiped the beast and his image and have not accepted his sign on their forehead and in their hand, i.e., those who have refused divine honors to the emperor (13:4, 12 ff; 14:9, 11; 16:2; 19:20). Christianity has collided with the state and with the state religion, the Christ cult with the imperial cult. In the interest of faith, Rev raises passionate objections to Rome and the imperial cult. That corresponds to the situation under Domitian.



And the translators of the New American Bible, authorized by the RCC:


http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/revelation/intro.htm
"The author of the book calls himself John (Rev 1:1, 4, 9; 22:8), who because of his Christian faith has been exiled to the rocky island of Patmos, a Roman penal colony. Although he never claims to be John the apostle, whose name is attached to the fourth gospel, he was so identified by several of the early church Fathers, including Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Hippolytus. This identification, however, was denied by other Fathers, including Denis of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom. Indeed, vocabulary, grammar, and style make it doubtful that the book could have been put into its present form by the same person(s) responsible for the fourth gospel. Nevertheless, there are definite linguistic and theological affinities between the two books. The tone of the letters to the seven churches (Rev 1:4-3:22) is indicative of the great authority the author enjoyed over the Christian communities in Asia. It is possible, therefore, that he was a disciple of John the apostle, who is traditionally associated with that part of the world. The date of the book in its present form is probably near the end of the reign of Domitian (A.D. 81-96), a fierce persecutor of the Christians.

AND
http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=531&C=569
Irenaeus (c. A.D. 185) speaks of the Revelation as seen ‘not long ago, but almost in our generation, at the end of Domitian’s reign (i.e. c. A.D. 95)’. There are grounds for believing that Irenaeus is here quoting from Papias, who himself knew the Revelation, and this date may well be correct. The church in Ephesus has had time to leave its first love (2:4), that in Laodicea to become lukewarm (3:16). Domitian seems to have been the first emperor to take emperor-worship seriously, and persecution of Christians seems to have become widespread, if sporadic, in his reign, although the evidence is scanty. Earlier dates have been suggested, but on insufficient grounds. A date in the last years of Nero’s reign (54-68) is ruled out by the references to the legend of Nero’s return (27:8-11), and the verses (11:1 ff.) which are sometimes claimed as indicating that the temple was still standing seem to draw their significance from Old Testament prophecy (especially Ez. 40) rather than from any contemporary historical situation. A date under Vespasian can be supported by a strict interpretation of 17:10, but such an interpretation is far from binding in an apocalypse.


New ADvent agrees with the Late date.

Then there is D.L. Moody, A Fruchtenbaum, Zola Levitt, R.A. Torry, Dwight Pentecost, Lewis Chafer, John Darby, ......oh, the list is long.


Like this coment by Louis Berkhof http://www.dabar.org/NewTestament/Berkhof/Revel.htm

2. Time and Place. There are especially two opinions as to the composition of the Apocalypse, viz. (1) that it was written toward the end of Domitians reign, about A. D. 95 or 96; and (2) that it was composed between the death of Nero in the year 68 and the destruction of Jerusalem.


(1). The late date was formerly the generally accepted time of composition (Hengstenberg, Lange, Alford, Godet e. a.) and, although for a time the earlier date was looked upon with great favor, there is now a noticeable return to the old position (Holtzmann, Warfield, Ramsay, Porter (Hastings D. B.), Moffat (Exp. Gk. Test.) e. a.). This view is favored by the following considerations: (a) The testimony of antiquity. While there are few witnesses that refer the book to an earlier date, the majority, and among them Irenaeus whose testimony should not lightly be set aside, point to the time of Domitian. (b) The antithesis of the Roman empire to the Church presupposed in the Apocalypse. The persecution of Nero was a purely local and somewhat private affair. The Church did not stand opposed to the empire as representing the world until the first century was approaching its close; and the Apocalypse already looks back on a period of persecution. Moreover we know that banishment was a common punishment in the time of Domitian. (c) The existence and condition of the seven churches in Asia. The utter silence of Acts and of the Epistles regarding the churches of Smyrna, Philadelphia, Sardis, Pergamus and Thyatira favors the supposition that they were founded after the death of Paul. And the condition of these churches presupposes a longer period of existence than the earlier date will allow. Ephesus has already left her first love; in Sardis and Laodicea spiritual life has almost become extinct; the Nicolaitans, who are not mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament, have already made their pernicious influence felt in the churches of Ephesus and Pergamus, while similar mischief was done in Thyatira by the woman Jesebel. Moreover Laodicea, which was destroyed by an earthquake in the 6th (Tactitus) or in the 10th (Eusebius) year of Nero, is here described as boasting of her wealth and self-sufficiency. (2). Against this and in favor of the earlier date defended by Dusterdieck, Weiss, Guericke, Schaff, are urged: (a) The late testimony of the Syrian Apocalypse that John was banished in the time of Nero, and the obscure and self-contradictory passage in Epiphanius that places the banishment in the time of Claudius. Cf. Alford, Prolegamena Section II. 14, where the weakness of this testimony is pointed out. (b) The supposed references in the Apocalypse to the destruction of the Holy City as still future in 11[size=-2]1,2,13[/size]. But it is quite evident that these passages must be understood symbolically. Regarded as historical predictions of the destruction of Jerusalem they did not come true, for according to 11: 2 only the outer court would be abolished, and according to vs. 13 merely the tenth part of the city would be destroyed, and that not by Rome but by an earthquake. (c) The supposed indications of the reigning emperor in 13:1 ff., especially in connection with the symbolical interpretation of the number 666 as being equal to the Hebrew form of Nero Ceasar. But the great diversity of opinion as to the correct interpretation of these passages, even among the advocates of the early date, proves that their support is very questionable. (d) The difference between the language of this book and that of the Gospel of John is thought to favor an early date, but, as we have already pointed out, this is not necessarily the case.


For the futurist, the date is not so important. For the preterist, the date is crucial. IF it is the later date, preterism falls.
 
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FirstStrikeForce

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ForeverEndeavor said:
This calls for wisdom: Let the person who has understanding figure out the number of the beast, because it is the number of a person. Its number is 666.
(Rev 13:18)


OK, I'm sure this topic has been done to death but I'm new so here goes:
What do you think this number is? Is it litteral? Is this some kind of code? It seems to be telling us a riddle. One that someone with wisdom should be able to figure out.

And...GO:

Absolutely no idea what it means except that 7 is a Holy number God often uses, and six is one beneath that. Being one beneath it, it is totally and completely not seven.

Three is another number the Lord often uses. For there being three sixes, that would point to a kind of blasphemous trinity.

Revelation 16

13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 
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justified

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Sorry man but I will not put my trust in someone's commentary just because they spent decades on it. There are alot of quacks who are full of it who also spent decades on commentaries.

Who cares what "Charles" says? What does the bible say?

Everything I need to know, I learned from the bible. It seems to me that alot of the problem here is that people are just accepting someone elses commentary (or teaching) as a fact without studying the scriptures before they make up their mind. Inexcusable to not read a bible commentary? Gimme a break!!! You'll have to do better than that!
Exactly my point. You people aren't reading the bible, you're reading your puzzle which you've superimposed on the bible. First you have to figure out what you're reading before you interpret it: hence my frantic comments for a discussion of genre above!

Men like charles and Aune have studied and shown themselves approved. Most of the people here can't even read greek. Believe it or not, God gave the bible in Greek for a reason. I'm not asking you to put your trust in the commentary. I don't do that. But I'm asking you to do what I do: interact with those works.

It's funny, I've noticed that most of the "authors" being cited in this thread are tertiary. That is, they take most of what they learned from a few scholars, who did their study based on the bible. Interesting.
 
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