666 or 616: Which is the devil's number?

[Cactus Jack]

616 or 666? How about those numbers being anachronisms?

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[cubanito]

This is hilarious! I recently posted about the AMBIGUITY between 616 and 666 and I am a raging full time fundy. Just look at my posts all over and really, I am a fundy.

Look guys, this is getting close to the start of another KJV-only debate.

For the records, and see the SoF or the Chicago Statement on the Fundamentals, or go to MULTIPLE scholars like Sproul (PCA), John McArthur (Independent Fundy) or anywhere outside the KJV-only crowd and you will understand we hold only the original autographs as inspired. We also hold that copies of these have been handed down with tiny textual errors that DO NOT CHANGE ANY MAJOR DOCTRINE.

I am NOT accusing anyone of being foolish, but if you are not conversant with lower criticism (and I am not), please don't be so naive as to believe as the Muslims do that we have a PERFECT copy of God's Word. We do not. Your faith will be shaken and you will be humiliated in a debate with someone knowleageble.

JR, a fundy, really

 

[cubanito]

OK located the post that stirred these hornets:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7720385-2/#post62657608

'nuff said

 

[peterlindner]

The issue of 616 versus 666 came about in the early versions of Revelations. In general, the Greek language versions had 666, while the Latin versions had 616. The explanation for the difference can be found here.

Number of the Beast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I like this study. The feast of weeks/pentecost is really given with some ambiguity. The 7 weeks is quite clear. But the numbering 50 could be adding 1 or adding 50. If it said number 30, we would take 49+30. This "off" by fifty is patterened over and over again. Adonijah had 50 men run in front of him when he self proclaimed himself king. Elijah struck down 50 plus captain two times (102 dead). Elisha's blessing was double (Elijah was with 50 on the shore).

 

[cubanito]

As I've never been to seminary, and have not studied numerology in any depth, Biblical or otherwise, I hereby appoint myself Chief Authority on Biblical Bumerology.

Havind assumed that title with no qualifications aside from my massive arrogance, I hereby proclaim:

1- There is numerology in the Bible, and lots of it.

2- It is a VERY dangerous subject, as one can see patterns that really are not there.

3- There is a long and sad history of date setting, identifying one after another despot as The antichrist, and this has at times given cause for the mockers to scoff at the Church.

Application: play with it if you wish, but unless you are a very, very, very mature Christian, stay away from any definitive statement.

Thus Sayeth JR, the ever humble

 

[peterlindner]

As I've never been to seminary, and have not studied numerology in any depth, Biblical or otherwise, I hereby appoint myself Chief Authority on Biblical Bumerology.

Havind assumed that title with no qualifications aside from my massive arrogance, I hereby proclaim:

1- There is numerology in the Bible, and lots of it.

2- It is a VERY dangerous subject, as one can see patterns that really are not there.

3- There is a long and sad history of date setting, identifying one after another despot as The antichrist, and this has at times given cause for the mockers to scoff at the Church.

Application: play with it if you wish, but unless you are a very, very, very mature Christian, stay away from any definitive statement.

Thus Sayeth JR, the ever humble

The church could use a good mocking. Peter left the church when he jumped out of the boat and swam for shore. He was probably fed up with people in the fishing village saying "God loves a cheerful giver" everytime he came in with his catch.
God hardened Pharoah's heart. Surely Moses thought it was the "time" at the first plague. As it says elsewhere in scripture to keep beating the arrows against the ground, Moses looked again at the "times" on the second plague. It looked right for 9 times and then finally it was. Each time built up Moses's faith.
God works according to a plan and pattern. Both temples were destroyed on the same day (Av 9/10). The lamb is set apart on the 10th day; the day of atonement. There is a day when the priest's went into the holy of holies. There is a resurrection day.

People can call it date setting. But God already set the dates. It is the honor of kings to search out a matter.

For the last 3 years God's numbers, patterns, and times have lined up with important feast days, wedding days, and atonement days. They have progressively lined up with more and more strength. They don't line up the same way every year since God's calendar is lunar/metonic. In John 10 when it says it was winter and the dedication...that is not true every year. However the first day of dedication was on the first day of winter in 2011.

This is the great mystery. If you don't believe that the enormous body of Word relating to counting and numbers has any relevance, then the depth of treasure in the field is very shallow, and the treasure is mainly silver and not gold.

If the disciples made mistakes (and they did), perhaps we could misinterpret the times. If the priests were killed if they didn't get it just right when they went into the holy of holies (wouldn't be able to hear their prayer bells if they were dead), perhaps getting the prayer bells "parables" just right takes a deeper dig.

What is faith in an outcome that is far off? Martha had faith in the resurrection far off.

Anyway I have heard the long list of arguments saying that we can't know times; and I won't speak for "we". For me it is both knowable and it is being revealed.

My journey has brought me to question disciples, angels, and Paul. When the "eggs" hatch there are going to be a lot of mother birds looking down in shock at what they have been keeping under their warm feathers.

 

[cubanito]

I will not mock Truth, and Truth be written that there IS numerology in the Bible. But Peter did NOT "immediately" leave the boat as Mark writes. For part of the reason see Luke 5: Now it happened that while the crowd was pressing around Him and listening to the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennesaret; 2 and He saw two boats lying at the edge of the lake; but the fishermen had gotten out of them and were washing their nets. 3 And He got into one of the boats, which was Simon’s, and asked him to put out a little way from the land. And He sat down and began teaching the [a]people from the boat. 4 When He had finished speaking, He said to Simon, “Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch.” 5 Simon answered and said, “Master, we worked hard all night and caught nothing, but I will do as You say and let down the nets.” 6 When they had done this, they enclosed a great quantity of fish, and their nets began to break; 7 so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink. 8 But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus’ [c]feet, saying, “Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man!” 9 For amazement had seized him and all his companions because of the catch of fish which they had taken; 10 and so also were [d]James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not fear, from now on you will be catching men.” 11 When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed Him.

By no means am I doubting the veracity of Mark, just the curious way "immediately" means in the Gospel of Mark. Considering Mark was a disciple of Foot-In-Mouth-Impulsive Peter, I can understand he takes "immediate to awhole new level. Then again, Christ saying "I am coming soon" in Revelations takes "soon" to a whole new level too. Not being The Ancient of Days, "soon" and 2,000+ years gives me cognitive dissonance. Not disbelief, not expectation, but jars with my personal use of the word "soon" is all.

Even this is not all of it, as elsewhere it says Peter had been a disciple of Johnny the Baptizer, cousin to The Lord. And you know that after His baptism John kept telling his disciples to follow Christ.

The point is, there was a whole lot of preparation before "Peter jumped the boat."

And, BTW, I can't find a significant person in the Bible that does not first get prepared for their work wo a SIGNIFICANT period of training with a few miracles thrown in for good measure.

All I'm saying, as one that likes thin ice, that there ice is too thin for me, is all.

JR

 

[peterlindner]

I will not mock Truth, and Truth be written that there IS numerology in the Bible. But Peter did NOT "immediately" leave the boat as Mark writes. For part of the reason see Luke 5: Now it happened that while the crowd was pressing around Him and listening to the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennesaret; 2 and He saw two boats lying at the edge of the lake; but the fishermen had gotten out of them and were washing their nets. 3 And He got into one of the boats, which was Simon’s, and asked him to put out a little way from the land. And He sat down and began teaching the [a]people from the boat. 4 When He had finished speaking, He said to Simon, “Put out into the deep water and let down your nets for a catch.” 5 Simon answered and said, “Master, we worked hard all night and caught nothing, but I will do as You say and let down the nets.” 6 When they had done this, they enclosed a great quantity of fish, and their nets began to break; 7 so they signaled to their partners in the other boat for them to come and help them. And they came and filled both of the boats, so that they began to sink. 8 But when Simon Peter saw that, he fell down at Jesus’ [c]feet, saying, “Go away from me Lord, for I am a sinful man!” 9 For amazement had seized him and all his companions because of the catch of fish which they had taken; 10 and so also were [d]James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon. And Jesus said to Simon, “Do not fear, from now on you will be catching men.” 11 When they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed Him.

By no means am I doubting the veracity of Mark, just the curious way "immediately" means in the Gospel of Mark. Considering Mark was a disciple of Foot-In-Mouth-Impulsive Peter, I can understand he takes "immediate to awhole new level. Then again, Christ saying "I am coming soon" in Revelations takes "soon" to a whole new level too. Not being The Ancient of Days, "soon" and 2,000+ years gives me cognitive dissonance. Not disbelief, not expectation, but jars with my personal use of the word "soon" is all.

Even this is not all of it, as elsewhere it says Peter had been a disciple of Johnny the Baptizer, cousin to The Lord. And you know that after His baptism John kept telling his disciples to follow Christ.

The point is, there was a whole lot of preparation before "Peter jumped the boat."

And, BTW, I can't find a significant person in the Bible that does not first get prepared for their work wo a SIGNIFICANT period of training with a few miracles thrown in for good measure.

All I'm saying, as one that likes thin ice, that there ice is too thin for me, is all.

JR

I like your gospel links with the fishing parable. Although I'm not sure what you are making of them with the "preparation". How much prep did some have when Jesus walked by and said "follow me". David was a ruddy little lad when the choice was revealed. God does the calling out, the revealing, and gives the victory in battle. God just needs a willing heart. I believe that Peter was the pattern of the first person after Jesus to get understanding. After all; Jesus prayed specifically for Peter. I believe the timing of John21 reveals when Peter clearly understood could see the Word/Jesus.

 

[cubanito]

I like your gospel links with the fishing parable. Although I'm not sure what you are making of them with the "preparation". How much prep did some have when Jesus walked by and said "follow me". David was a ruddy little lad when the choice was revealed. God does the calling out, the revealing, and gives the victory in battle. God just needs a willing heart. I believe that Peter was the pattern of the first person after Jesus to get understanding. After all; Jesus prayed specifically for Peter. I believe the timing of John21 reveals when Peter clearly understood could see the Word/Jesus.

Peter had a LOT of preparation before he followed Christ. Mark leaves it all out but if you go to Luke 5 you get a clearer picture. In addition remember Peter and a few other Apostles were disciples of Jesus' cousin John, and we know John pointed all his disciples towards his cousin Yeshua. I already posted this here.

David had killed a lion and a bear as a youth by God's providence before ever meeting Goliath. I think that counts as serious prep, don't you?

Try again, find ONE person in the Bible whose life gets more than a couple of paragraphs that does not get extended prep before following God in a miraculous path. Frankly I believe you need to slow down and read a little more Bible.

JR

 

[peterlindner]

Peter had a LOT of preparation before he followed Christ. Mark leaves it all out but if you go to Luke 5 you get a clearer picture. In addition remember Peter and a few other Apostles were disciples of Jesus' cousin John, and we know John pointed all his disciples towards his cousin Yeshua. I already posted this here.

David had killed a lion and a bear as a youth by God's providence before ever meeting Goliath. I think that counts as serious prep, don't you?

Try again, find ONE person in the Bible whose life gets more than a couple of paragraphs that does not get extended prep before following God in a miraculous path. Frankly I believe you need to slow down and read a little more Bible.

JR

I'm not disagreeing on God preparing people before he uses them in a big way. I love reading the bible. Which part do you suggest specifically? What deep truth has been revealed to you about that particular choice? Is it the same stuff that has been passed around for a couple thousand years, or is it fresh mana? Whether it is jumping out of the boat or a man on a journey; the meaning is the same. It isn't so much leaving as it is having no one that wants or believes the same thing to come along. I believe God put His times into the Word. I haven't found anyone else that believes that. So I walk alone on a journey by myself.

This is the kind of food that I eat. God gave me this yesterday..."some, some, some" in the written. For those that have ears to hear..."sum,sum,sum". The parable about the sowers...sum30, sum60, sum 100=190. This Passover is the 190th day of the year from Trumpets! It's a small piece of food by itself. However when there are near twenty different scriptures lining up like this, I continue to take notice.

 

[busdriver72]

That's not the Devil's number...it may be his area code or prefix, though....I doubt it's his address...

 

[busdriver72]

I'm not disagreeing on God preparing people before he uses them in a big way. I love reading the bible. Which part do you suggest specifically? What deep truth has been revealed to you about that particular choice? Is it the same stuff that has been passed around for a couple thousand years, or is it fresh mana? Whether it is jumping out of the boat or a man on a journey; the meaning is the same. It isn't so much leaving as it is having no one that wants or believes the same thing to come along. I believe God put His times into the Word. I haven't found anyone else that believes that. So I walk alone on a journey by myself.

This is the kind of food that I eat. God gave me this yesterday..."some, some, some" in the written. For those that have ears to hear..."sum,sum,sum". The parable about the sowers...sum30, sum60, sum 100=190. This Passover is the 190th day of the year from Trumpets! It's a small piece of food by itself. However when there are near twenty different scriptures lining up like this, I continue to take notice.

.....huh?

 

[peterlindner]

.....huh?

Hannah means "Full of Grace"

Huh is a lazy comment.

 

[cubanito]

Hannah means "Full of Grace"

Huh is a lazy comment.

Eh?

 

[Juelrei]

I'm in a discussion with a guy who pulled a bunch of 'contradictions' probably from some athiest website and it included the mark of the beast as being 616 instead of 666. He's trying to discredit me preaching Jesus and I need help and understanding about this whole matter. Please help me.

Regarding the contradictions.. You are the one discussing the number 666 in particular.

Did you join a thread that is discussing contradictions, or the number 666?

If that contradiction challenge is to you personally, then you have the right to decline answering, and focus on the 666 issue. That is not in any way a discredit to your knowledge of the Bible.

Require that contradictions poster to cease attempting to derail you from your focus.

I would suggest however that you study and familiarize yourself to everyone of those contradictions and have satisfactory answers to them.. so that you could participate in any thread about them.

===

As for the info regarding the 666 number. Give the common speculations about it. The secular examples of names that add up to 666. Showing that it cannot be known by a surface knowledge and mathematics.

The topic needs to be seen from the perspective of the Jews. Numbers in the case of 666 must be studied from the Hebrew Gematria. That takes knowing the Hebrew alphabet and the specific numbers assigned to each.

Also, in Hebrew Bible context "name" can refer to character rather than a person's name. So be mindful that John is not talking about the name of a man, but the character of a man in connection with 666. To apply our western theology to eastern Jewish minded text is where Christians and Atheists always go wrong.

So, check out the suggestions I've given you and see what you come up with. Perhaps we could discuss what I've come up with some time.

 

[Wheeler1552]

I was under the impression that the whole '666 vs 616' thing was just a difference in translation between greek, latin and hebrew like many things in the bible... It doesn't actually change the meaning at all

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Thefunkyfundy]

666 is the devils number, no doubt about that! anyone who says otherwise is wrong!

Scripture states that it is the number of a man. Ehem!