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4 Common Progressive Christian Mistakes in Interpreting the Great Commission (Matthew 28;16-20)

The Liturgist

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I am more concerned with pain inflicted in the past in the name of religion than I am with modern "rhetoricians".

I agree in the case of negative proselytization, which Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, regarded as profoundly un-Orthodox. The Orthodox and the modern day Roman Catholic church have a “pull” model of evangelization, where we make the public aware of the mystery and beauty of our tradition and invite them to come and see, without trying to cram it down their throats in the style of the Mormons, J/Ws and Scientologists.

In addition, I disagree with some Orthodox and Catholics in that I am a hard ecumenist - I believe Anglican sacraments, Lutheran sacraments and the sacraments of the Assyrian Church of the East, among other traditional churches such as some of the traditional Methodists and conservative Moravians, and even the Reformed churches that are liturgical and traditionalist, are valid. So as I see it, if someone joins a traditional denomination, that’s good. If they join the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox church, that’s better, in my private view, mainly because of my fear Pope Francis or his successor could be persuaded to capitulate to the German “synodal way” and also due to the liberalism of many diocesan bishops and the severe liturgical abuses in the Roman Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, the Maronite Rite and in some Melkite Catholic parishes. However, if Pope Benedict XVI had not resigned, I would have joined the Catholic Church, albeit most likely via Orthodoxy, because Orthodox converts don’t have to go through the RCIA. The RCIA as I see it is a good idea, but I believe that the catechumenate should be flexible, and if someone can demonstrate a thorough grasp of Roman Catholic theology they should simply be admitted via chrismation or confession of faith as appropriate.

My hope is that a conservative Pope replaces Pope Francis, deposes all the German bishops and replaces them with Athanasius Schneider, who should be made a Cardinal and Patriarch of the Roman Catholic Church in Germany, and likewise elevates Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco and Raymond Cardinal Burke to Patriarchal rank, giving them control of Western North America and Eastern North America respectively. And then ideally acts to formally limit the power of the Papacy so that a Roman Pope could not change the doctrine of the Church, and also is required to abide by the canons of the first seven ecumenical councils, which would imply recognizing the autocephaly of the Orthodox churches and striking the filioque. However I estimate the chance of that happening is about 0.1%,, and even less in the term of one Pope, but I pray for a miracle. If the next Pope however comes from one of the Eastern Catholic churches, particularly the Chaldean, Italo-Albanian, Hungarian, or the Ukrainian, Russian or Belarussian Greek Catholic Churches, and I could see a Ukrainian Pope on the basis of a sympathy vote, that makes it more likely.
 
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RDKirk

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I am more concerned with pain inflicted in the past in the name of religion than I am with modern "rhetoricians".
That has nothing to do, specifically, with those words.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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No but the former sounds interesting.

Regarding the latter, J Edgar Hoover came from a Quaker background and I controversially feel he is, like President Nixon, who was also a Quaker, by the way, unfairly criticized.
Martin's book describes documentation of a multi faceted coordination between religious figures (incl Carl Henry) and others (including records of meetings attended by guests and publicity material for ordinary enquirers) to establish close associations between popular christianity and some sort of political image in the US. Martin is a professor and his book is pub'd by an academic publisher.

I think this was imprudent because the US like any state needed to sort out its affairs in level headed agnosticism and told the churches it would be an easy ride to gain ultimate social influence. While the likes of Billy Graham were making the rounds churches abandoned their internal teaching ministry (in the UK as well). Muscular christianity and an untutored or false charismatic have ruled the day everywhere. This is relevant to the debate between RDKirk and Akita Suggagaki as well.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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I am more concerned with pain inflicted in the past in the name of religion than I am with modern "rhetoricians".
RDKirk said:

Dogma is also a perfectly good word, along with indoctrination and proselytization. Just because certain modern rhetoricians have twisted them to negative meanings doesn't make them bad words.

While the likes of Billy Graham were making the rounds churches abandoned their internal teaching ministry (in the UK as well). Muscular christianity and a withered or false charismatic have ruled the day everywhere. This is relevant to the discussion between me and The Liturgist as well.

See also my no. 10 above.

We don't have the word "progressive" over here but in my observation "conservative" churches (which doesn't usually mean liturgical) are as bad at instruction in the core of the faith which is the distinct Holy Spirit actions as any other flavours are. Liturgical and non-liturgical alike: muscular with or without false or untutored and stunted charismatic.

Most of our churches have multiple organisational and commercial affiliations.

p.s In matters impacted by counter rhetoric or materialism I bridge a gap by saying for example (when applicable) partial analogy or apparent contradiction.
 
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Berserk

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I am more concerned with pain inflicted in the past in the name of religion than I am with modern "rhetoricians".
Your concern is irrelevant to the intent of the Great Commission. The command "make disciples of all nations" clearly implies efforts at Christian conversion and "teaching them" implies explanations of Jesus' commandments. St. Francis famously taught, "Spread the Gospel to everyone you meet, and if necessary, use words." Jesus would approve of setting a good exqmple, but there is nothing explicit on this in the Great Commission.
Your concern about missionary abuse of indoctrination over the centuries is commendable but irrelevant to the point at issue.
 
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The Liturgist

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That has nothing to do, specifically, with those words.

I agree insofar as proselytization simply defined means the process of receiving converts into your religion. Religions which do not proselytize, such as the Parsis in India, do not accept converts. Likewise a proselyte is literally a convert from one religion to another. Historically the word had the context of those who elected to become Jews, and it still has that meaning, even though the Jews do not engage in any active evangelism.

I think what @Akita Suggagaki is referring to could be better referred to as “aggressive proselytization.” Do you think my assessment of your position is valid, @Akita Suggagaki ? And if not, could you please explain your position in greater detail, particularly in response to my previous reply?
 
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OldAbramBrown

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In the East Indies the Dutch East India Company forbade evangelising, ensuring the indigenous could never enter whatever the colonisers' (supposed "Reformed") religion did for the colonisers.

It had also extirpated the entire wild growth of (I forget which) spice from where it had grown for thousands of years so that they could usurp a monopoly.

Many "progressives" here are making the best of it because it had already been decided by those with "influence" (e.g Bash Nash and J Stott) to ration true practice. Some "Bible chuches" appear comfortable only with upper middle class couples 30-45 who aren't widely read so this is the population I mainly want to reach.

People who wanted to go to church because they wanted to go to church got looked down on by those who insist we go because they made it "attractive". Sadly the wouldbe genuine progressives enviously then copy the not so "winning" formula.

So I think the dichotomy is between those who "influence" and those who cultivate everything that Jesus instructed, namely embracing distinctly Holy Spirit Whom He sent, so that we can teach each other.
 
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The Liturgist

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Your concern is irrelevant to the intent of the Great Commission. The command "make disciples of all nations" clearly implies efforts at Christian conversion and "teaching them" implies explanations of Jesus' commandments. St. Francis famously taught, "Spread the Gospel to everyone you meet, and if necessary, use words." Jesus would approve of setting a good exqmple, but there is nothing explicit on this in the Great Commission.
Your concern about missionary abuse of indoctrination over the centuries is commendable but irrelevant to the point at issue.

Well to be fair, we don’t know yet what @Akita Suggagaki means, precisely, because I would be greatly surprised if he was opposed to people converting to Christianity, and being invited to convert in a manner that is not a hard sell. I think, and please correct me if I’m wrong, AKita, that what you are talking about is aggressive proselytization of the sort engaged in by dangerous cults like the Hare Krishnas, J/Ws, Mormons and Scientologists, tactics which a few Christian denominations have stupidly adopted, causing grave harm to the Christian community as a whole.

That said, I think most missionaries have done more good than harm. I am proud of the fact that my great uncle was a missionary in Africa who worked to provide villages with clean water - these activities also brought about converts. For this good work he endured torture by the Lusotropical dictatorship of Antonio Salazar.

And of course @RDKirk you are correct that the Great Commission requires us to make disciples of all nations. The Orthodox Church historically has accomplished this successfully, on a large scale, without resorting to violence or forced conversion, with the Eastern churches, specifically the Aramaic and Greek speaking Christians starting in the first century, including Jews, Greeks, Aramaeans, Phoenicians, Cypriots, Pontics, Assyrians and Chaldeans, and some Arabs, being responsible for evangelizing more Arabs, the Mesopotamians, the Indians, and the Egyptians, Armenians, Georgians, Caucasian Albanians, Numidians, Persians, Ethiopians, Serbians, Macedonian Slavs, Montenegrins, Albanians, Bulgarians, Russians, Carpatho-Rusyns, Byelorussians, Lemkos, Slovakians, Eastern Czechs, Eastern Poles, Eastern Hungarians, Bessarabians, Aromanians, and other ethnic groups related to Romanians, the Paulicians, who were Gnostics non-violently converted to Orthodox Christianity over a thousand year period concluding in the 19th century in Armenia (previously, a large number were converted who now live in Romania and Bulgaria), and more recently, the Siberians and several Alaskan tribes such as the Aleut people, and a great many Chinese, and many Japanese and Koreans, and also many Sri Lankans. That this was accomplished without violence is attested to by the large number of religious minorities that existed in the former Russian Empire, including Jews, Muslims, Khazars, Buddhists, Tengrists and practitioners of Suomi Shamanism, as well as those Alaskan tribes which retained their indigenous religion.

The Church of the East also managed to convert the people of Socotra, an Island off the coast of Yemen, and many people across Central Asia, China,

Likewise, the Lutherans (with the possible exception of the Baltic States and Finland, where it is conceivable persecution may have occurred during the peak of Swedish Imperial expansion, although I have seen no evidence of this), Moravians and Methodists have I think a very good track record of responsible missionary work, and for the most part, this also applies to the Anglicans, with some exceptions, particularly where Anglicans sought to convert adherents of other Christian denominations, although the Catholics were more aggressive in this regard, and the Calvinists also pushed the boundaries in this area, as did the Adventists. However violence on the part of the Catholics is the reason why there are no longer canonical Orthodox churches comprising the majority populations of Hungary, Croatia, Herzegovina, and why in Poland, Albania and India the Roman Catholics outnumber the Orthodox, and for a time totally suppressed them in the Czech Lands and Slovakia, where they are greatly outnumbered (with a large number of the Orthodox being Carpatho-Rusyns, most of whom, along with the Lemkos, in Europe, and many of whom in the US, are members of the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church). Indeed the raison d’etre for the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, and most of Byzantine Catholicism lies in the Union of Brest, which resulted in the formation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, under which the Orthodox were allowed to retain the Byzantine Rite liturgy (subject to Latinizations that crept in over the centuries but were largely reversed after Vatican II) while being Catholics in communion with the Pope.

Likewise, the schism between the Chaldean Catholics and the Assyrian Church of the East, which happened along tribal lines, and to a certain extent linguistic lines, since the Chaldean tribe of the Assyrian people is the only one that predominantly speaks Arabic in the vernacular likely involved Roman Catholic missionary activity, and the same can be said of the schism between the Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics.

One noteworthy exception to this is the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church in Siciliy, which is noteworthy as there are areas of Siciliy which historically were always under the jurisdiction of the Roman Pope, before the Great Schism, yet worshipped using the Byzantine Rite.

Interestingly enough, for a few hundred years after the Great Schism, a Byzantine monastery, Amalfion, continued to exist on Mount Athos, the peninsula which is the heart of Eastern Orthodox monasticism, much like the region around Monte Cassino and Cartheuse and Cluny, and Ireland as a whole, is to Western monasticism, and Scetis is to monasticism in general (and Tur Abdin historically is the center of Syriac Orthodox monasticism, but now the monasteries are mostly abandoned and barely inhabited due to the Turkish genocide in 1915, which targeted Syriacs as well as Armenians, and is known in Syriac as Sayfo, "the sword", and continued hostility towards Christians in Turkey since the end of the First World War). Sadly Amalfion is in ruins, but given the relative success of Western Rite Orthodoxy, my hope is it will eventually be reopened. Indeed, it probably would have happened already, except for the fact that the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, of all of the Orthodox churches, is the only one which has manifested open hostility towards Western Rite Orthodoxy, with even Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, having criticized it, the basis being, among other things, what I regard as a baseless fear that Orthodox Christians might inadvertently start attending Catholic and Anglican masses if Western Rite Orthodoxy is normalized, and it is the Ecumenical Patriarchate that controls Mount Athos; indeed, to enter the Holy Mountain, one must be male*, have short hair (unless one is an ordained monastic or cleric in the Orthodox Church) and have a visa from the Ecumenical Patriarch.

*Women need not despair, for the other major monastic center in Greece, Meteora, which is deservedly more popular with tourists and better equipped to handle them, and which features several convents, and indeed, all the other monasteries and convents in Greece, admit female visitors. Also, Valaam, the center of Russian monasticism, and also Zagorsk, are open to women, as are the Kiev Lavra and related caves, which are the center of Ukrainian monasticism. Really, only Mount Athos, of all the monastic centers in the Orthodox world, is closed to women, and this is because of two reasons: from the perspective of mystical theology, it is regarded as the private garden of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and from the perspective of pastoral theology, it is considered to be a refuge for men who have a particular struggle with lust for women and are unable to deal with their inclination to fornicate while remaining in the world; to a certain extent, all monasteries serve that need and related needs, but Mount Athos especially so, because of a lack of female pilgrims who are a common sight at nearly every other monastery. It should also be noted that monasticism is usually regarded as inappropriate for those who uncontrollably struggle with homosexuality; there is a canon law in the Orthodox Church that prohibits anyone from becoming a monk due to a lack of normal interest or desire for relations with women. This does not mean abuses do not happen.

There are exceptions, however: one prominent case where someone who had been homosexual found Jesus, repented and became an important monastic is that of Fr. Seraphim Rose, who lived a decadent life in the North Beach area of San Francisco in the 1950s before, by chance, discoveriing the Russian Orthodox Church during the episcopate of St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco, and with his help, converting and overcoming the passions. He founded the Monastery of St. Herman of Alaska in Northern California, near the border with Oregon, and was its abbot until he succumbed to cancer in 1980, during which time he translated several important works, such as Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, and also wrote several important books such as Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, written if I recall around 1975, which predicted the increase in popularity of the New Age movement and the Hindu and Buddhist religions and the dangers they posed, as epitomized by figures such as the Rajneeshis in Oregon in the 1980s (who had not arrived in America at the time of his death), the Hare Krishnas, Transcendental Meditation, and UFO cults, and this was proven spectacularly correct in the course of the 1990s, for example, with the tragic suicide of the Heaven’s Gate movement (which ironically was founded the same year Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future). He also wrote a brilliant and devastating critique of Nihilism, correctly identifying it as the underlying ideology from which arose various nightmares of the 20th century such as communism, anarchism, materialism, Nazism, fascism, and other poisonous belief systems.
 
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The Liturgist

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In the East Indies the Dutch East India Company forbade evangelising, ensuring the indigenous could never enter whatever the colonisers' (supposed "Reformed") religion did for the colonisers.

That is actually largely inaccurate. While it is true that the Dutch were careful not to make any visible effort to convert the Japanese after being invited to trade with them in Yokohama* after the Portuguese were banished and the Roman Catholic missionaries and converts martyred, the fact is that a great many Indonesians were converted to Calvinism, including several in Borneo, as well as a great many in the former Dutch portion of New Guinea, now under Indonesian rule. However, to my knowledge, the Dutch slave traders who took over the Portuguese castle of Elmina on the Gold Coast, now part of Ghana, which I visited when I lived in that country, never made an effort to convert the locals. However, in Indonesia, Dutch missionaries were very active. The main problem they faced is that the most populous islands such as Java, Bali and Sumatra are almost entirely Muslim (recall that Singapore was under Islamic control before the Portuguese under Admiral Alfonso de Albuquerque , who the city in New Mexico is named after, conquered it**. with only a tiny minority of Buddhists and Hindus remaining. From Singapore, Muslim missionaries had ready access to Indonesia. Indeed the
Christians of Borneo only were converted because no one had bothered to try and penetrate the thick jungles of the island before the Dutch, and this preserved the indigenous religion until the Calvinists arrived.

And the problem with Muslims is of course that they are extremely difficult to convert to Christianity. It is my view that the Islamic religion, and also to a lesser extent the Mormonic heresy of Joseph Smith, are very nearly tailor-made by the devil to resist conversion to the Christian faith. Scientology also poses a huge problem, because those people who leave Scientology seem to be terrified of the prospect of joining any religion, but fortunately they are very small in number.

Nonetheless Muslims can be converted, but the simple fact is that the Dutch did not want to risk a Jihad that could deprive them of their immensely valuable spice-producing East Indies.

* In all fairness to the Dutch, however, unlike the Portuguese, their access to Japan was strictly controlled: they were not permitted outside the port city of Yokohama, and those Japanese who were permitted to interact with them were closely controlled, so the only possibility for any to convert would be if they traveled to Europe. This remained the case until Commodore Perry and the United States Navy, in a proud moment in the history of our country, compelled Japan to open its borders to foreigners, which led to the overthrow of the despotic Shogunate and a brief period of parliamentary democracy and rapid modernization, during which time the Orthodox, Protestants and Catholics converted many Japanese, before a fascist movement, the Imperial Rule Assistance Association, seized power during the reign of the Showa Emperor (Hirohito). We in turn defeated, with great difficulty, and thus far the sole historical and highly controversial use of strategic nuclear bombardment, the fascist Empire of Japan, although General MacArthur opted not to depose Hirohito but keep him in place in order to ensure stability (and allegedly conspired with the defeated General Tojo and also the judges of the Tokyo Trials to ensure that Tojo took the blame for WWII and not the Emperor). Since that time however Christian missionaries have had a free hand in Japan, but Christianity has not exploded in popularity there like it has in Korea and elsewhere in Asia.

**For this I regard Admiral Albuquerque as a hero, because the Muslim rulers would punish those who offended them by feeding them to cannibals imported from New Guinea and kept in the dungeons specifically for that terrible purpose, a barbaric practice which the Portuguese abolished.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... He also wrote a brilliant and devastating critique of Nihilism, correctly identifying it as the underlying ideology from which arose various nightmares ... and other poisonous belief systems.
Title and pubn. date please?

It's my opinion muscular and publicity-bound christianity need to purge themselves of nihilism.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... And the problem with Muslims is of course that they are extremely difficult to convert to Christianity. It is my view that the Islamic religion, and also to a lesser extent the Mormonic heresy of Joseph Smith, are very nearly tailor-made by the devil to resist conversion to the Christian faith. Scientology also poses a huge problem, because those people who leave Scientology seem to be terrified of the prospect of joining any religion, but fortunately they are very small in number ...
But it is equally the problem with most catholic and "reformed" forms of christianity in recent centuries. (Those from these milieux who "weaken" without becoming enlightened are still regarded with satsifaction.)
 
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OldAbramBrown

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I agree insofar as proselytization simply defined means the process of receiving converts into your religion. Religions which do not proselytize, such as the Parsis in India, do not accept converts. Likewise a proselyte is literally a convert from one religion to another. Historically the word had the context of those who elected to become Jews, and it still has that meaning, even though the Jews do not engage in any active evangelism.
Britain is burned-over country. Everyone has known people who were already believers, got told they were wrong, by mental and emotional force made to accept something shoddy and disrespectful, tried it out on others, kidded ourselves it was great, dropped out by pretending to rest on our laurels, so on ad nauseam and I do mean nauseam.

The secret of "muscular christianity" is that it gets the world's system - which is ever so good - to do its heavy lifting for it.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Your concern is irrelevant to the intent of the Great Commission. The command "make disciples of all nations" clearly implies efforts at Christian conversion and "teaching them" implies explanations of Jesus' commandments. St. Francis famously taught, "Spread the Gospel to everyone you meet, and if necessary, use words." Jesus would approve of setting a good exqmple, but there is nothing explicit on this in the Great Commission.
Your concern about missionary abuse of indoctrination over the centuries is commendable but irrelevant to the point at issue.
Perhaps so. We are not quit in the medieval mentality any more. But as you mention St Francis it reminds me that in his day Christianity was ubiquitous. Everyone knew about the Gospel and yet he comes along and it is as if they are hearing about it for the first time. They see it lived.

Well to be fair, we don’t know yet what @Akita Suggagaki means, precisely, because I would be greatly surprised if he was opposed to people converting to Christianity, and being invited to convert in a manner that is not a hard sell. I think, and please correct me if I’m wrong, AKita, that what you are talking about is aggressive proselytization of the sort engaged in by dangerous cults like the Hare Krishnas, J/Ws, Mormons and Scientologists, tactics which a few Christian denominations have stupidly adopted, causing grave harm to the Christian community as a whole.

That said, I think most missionaries have done more good than harm. I am proud of the fact that my great uncle was a missionary in Africa who worked to provide villages with clean water - these activities also brought about converts. For this good work he endured torture by the Lusotropical dictatorship of Antonio Salazar.
Right, aggressive proselytization that has nothing to do with living Gospel values and extending the love of Christi, but rather emphasizes a particular theology often entwined with a political regime.

In the day of Jesus there was so much new ground to break. His message and story were unheard of. So yes, GO Spread the word! But even by 1205 when St Francis began to "leave the world" his world was filled with Christian-ism. How then do we differentiate Christ from Christian-ism? Or Christendom as Kierkegaard would say?
 
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RDKirk

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Perhaps so. We are not quit in the medieval mentality any more. But as you mention St Francis it reminds me that in his day Christianity was ubiquitous. Everyone knew about the Gospel and yet he comes along and it is as if they are hearing about it for the first time. They see it lived.


Right, aggressive proselytization that has nothing to do with living Gospel values and extending the love of Christi, but rather emphasizes a particular theology often entwined with a political regime.

In the day of Jesus there was so much new ground to break. His message and story were unheard of. So yes, GO Spread the word! But even by 1205 when St Francis began to "leave the world" his world was filled with Christian-ism. How then do we differentiate Christ from Christian-ism? Or Christendom as Kierkegaard would say?
A huge part of Andy Stanley's preaching surrounds that issue, which he calls "carrying the gospel to a post-Christian world." He points out that nearly everyone around us already knows what they think they know about Christianity.
 
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The Liturgist

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Perhaps so. We are not quit in the medieval mentality any more. But as you mention St Francis it reminds me that in his day Christianity was ubiquitous. Everyone knew about the Gospel and yet he comes along and it is as if they are hearing about it for the first time. They see it lived.


Right, aggressive proselytization that has nothing to do with living Gospel values and extending the love of Christi, but rather emphasizes a particular theology often entwined with a political regime.

In the day of Jesus there was so much new ground to break. His message and story were unheard of. So yes, GO Spread the word! But even by 1205 when St Francis began to "leave the world" his world was filled with Christian-ism. How then do we differentiate Christ from Christian-ism? Or Christendom as Kierkegaard would say?

Actually the issue is manifold, for there are more pagans to convert now than ever before due to the population increase among the Hindus, Buddhists and Chinese, and the decline of the mainline churches due to the destructive influence of liberal theology, and there is also the spread of counterfeit Christianity in the form of cults like Mormonism and the J/Ws, and the need to re-evangelize Europe.

I believe this calls for an approach focused on mystery, liturgical beauty and traditional theology, whereby the Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans and other traditional churches must work to create a mystique that will attract the curious while also simultaneously working to make it clear that churches are safe places, where children and other vulnerable people are safer than in their own houses.

Achieving the former requires an emphasis on liturgical traditionalism and liturgical maximalism; ideally the budget for the musical program of a church should exceed the salary paid to the clergy and lay administrative staff by a minimum 2:1 ratio. It also requires a change to the style of homiletics during the Eucharistic liturgy to a more mystical style, with the long didactic sermons happening during the Divine Office, for example, at the sixth hour following a parish lunch so as to keep Matins and the Liturgy as primarily musical services.

Achieving the latter requires cracking down on sex abuse with the greatest severity, and providing free sanctuaries where people escaping abusive cults like the FLDS and Scientology can live free of charge, indefinitely, sanctuaries ideally operated by celibate monks and nuns (whose numbers are increasing in the Orthodox Churches and were increasing in RC churches before Traditiones Custodes, even after Pope Francis in one of the first acts of his pontificate sanctioned a particularly pointless, unwarranted and mean-spirited visitation of the Franciscans of the Immaculate, during which time members could not visit their family without renouncing their vows). Things like that must not be allowed to happen. Likewise, many churches should consider adopting the policy of a bishop who is a friend of mine, wherein men with homosexual inclinations or a history of womanizing, even if celibate are not permitted to serve in parishes but only as monastic clergy. Likewise, no divorced person must ever be ordained, and clergy should be deposed if they have a romantic relationship with anyone under their pastoral care. These measures must also be kept confidential to avoid persecution of the church by politicians, and also to avoid frightening off potential homosexual members - the church must love homosexuals while hating the sin, and likewise for adulterers.
 
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Achieving the former requires an emphasis on liturgical traditionalism and liturgical maximalism; ideally the budget for the musical program of a church should exceed the salary paid to the clergy and lay administrative staff by a minimum 2:1 ratio. It also requires a change to the style of homiletics during the Eucharistic liturgy to a more mystical style, with the long didactic sermons happening during the Divine Office, for example, at the sixth hour following a parish lunch so as to keep Matins and the Liturgy as primarily musical services.
Wait, I would get PAID !??!?!?

I always joked that I should be a Jewish Cantor... For my 20 years of chanting, the average salary for a Hebrew cantor is about $150,000

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Akita Suggagaki

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Actually the issue is manifold, for there are more pagans to convert now than ever before due to the population increase among the Hindus, Buddhists and Chinese, and the decline of the mainline churches due to the destructive influence of liberal theology, and there is also the spread of counterfeit Christianity in the form of cults like Mormonism and the J/Ws, and the need to re-evangelize Europe.

I believe this calls for an approach focused on mystery, liturgical beauty and traditional theology, whereby the Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans and other traditional churches must work to create a mystique that will attract the curious while also simultaneously working to make it clear that churches are safe places, where children and other vulnerable people are safer than in their own houses.

Achieving the former requires an emphasis on liturgical traditionalism and liturgical maximalism; ideally the budget for the musical program of a church should exceed the salary paid to the clergy and lay administrative staff by a minimum 2:1 ratio. It also requires a change to the style of homiletics during the Eucharistic liturgy to a more mystical style, with the long didactic sermons happening during the Divine Office, for example, at the sixth hour following a parish lunch so as to keep Matins and the Liturgy as primarily musical services.

Achieving the latter requires cracking down on sex abuse with the greatest severity, and providing free sanctuaries where people escaping abusive cults like the FLDS and Scientology can live free of charge, indefinitely, sanctuaries ideally operated by celibate monks and nuns (whose numbers are increasing in the Orthodox Churches and were increasing in RC churches before Traditiones Custodes, even after Pope Francis in one of the first acts of his pontificate sanctioned a particularly pointless, unwarranted and mean-spirited visitation of the Franciscans of the Immaculate, during which time members could not visit their family without renouncing their vows). Things like that must not be allowed to happen. Likewise, many churches should consider adopting the policy of a bishop who is a friend of mine, wherein men with homosexual inclinations or a history of womanizing, even if celibate are not permitted to serve in parishes but only as monastic clergy. Likewise, no divorced person must ever be ordained, and clergy should be deposed if they have a romantic relationship with anyone under their pastoral care. These measures must also be kept confidential to avoid persecution of the church by politicians, and also to avoid frightening off potential homosexual members - the church must love homosexuals while hating the sin, and likewise for adulterers.
You have a comprehensive plan there, Liturgist. I think you are right about population increase among the Hindus, Buddhists and Chinese, and the decline of the mainline churches. Somehow Christ got lost. And yet people hunger for spirituality seeking it in the oddest places.

I am intrigued by St Francis and re-reading his biographies (Celano I and II). How was he so effective? He was austere and spoke directly. And yet people were still attracted to him and the Gospel he proclaimed. Such a contrast to what we see today. I think liturgical traditionalism and liturgical maximalism can solidify Christian identity and encounter but we also need to get people into the liturgy to begin with. i love your thought on "safe places, where children and other vulnerable people are safer than in their own houses."
 
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Berserk

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Yet the modern American evangelical consensus is (1) that the survival of the church depends on attracting younger adults and
(2) to attract younger adults, one needs to abolish liturgy in favor of less structured worship and pay for an excellent praise team with good drummers and guitarists for the singing of ever changing modern praise choruses, and
(3) to ensure that the whole service lasts no longer than an hour to accomodate short American attention spans (sorry, Ethiopian Christians!)
 
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OldAbramBrown

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So much good ideas there. Mystery and the mystical, without mystification.

Home fellowship is so vital also, when possible. I've sometimes known better liturgies (if simple) at homes than at churches.
 
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