Proof For Pre-trib Rapture/ Part 2

[rollinTHUNDER]

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[rollinTHUNDER]

amazing!!!


 

 

[Wildfire]

Rollin this is some amazing stuff; have you ever read the book(s) of Enoch? He too was 'taken' by God, not through physical death but similiar to Elijah. Genesis 5:22
Check this link out:

http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
 ...would you believe that the ark of Noah was a copy of the Bridal chambers?? And if it is, then it would have to be a picture of the rapture of the bride...

Note that just as God didn't have to rapture Noah into heaven to keep him from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.

Noah was commanded to make extensive preparations on the earth in order to avoid God's wrath; he had to build a gigantic ark 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 4 1/2 stories high (Genesis 6:15), and he had to store up enough food to keep himself, 7 others in his family (Genesis 7:7), and every kind of animal alive in the ark (Genesis 6:19) for the 12 months and 10 days they would all remain in the ark (Genesis 7:11, 8:13-17) and until they could grow more food on the destroyed earth after the flood.

I believe Isaiah 26:20-21 could be a command to those of us Christians still alive on the earth right before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out (Revelation 16). The 7 vials aren't directed at us Christians, so that our and our families' entering our "chambers" before the 7 vials and "shutting the doors" about us (Isaiah 26:20-21) could protect us in a way like Noah and his family's entering the ark before the flood and the "shutting" of "the door of the ark" protected them (Genesis 6:16, 7:16).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
 ...John 14:2-3 - (2) "In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? (3) And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also."... 

 

Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). Note that he didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
 ...notice that the Lord descends Himself. He brings no one down with Him... 

Note that at the rapture Jesus will come back "with" all his saints: "Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thessalonians 4:14); "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23), "to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints" (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
 ...Post trib believers say that He will send His angels to gather His elect... 

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 doesn't say that Jesus himself will catch us up. Jesus will catch us up by sending his angels: "Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:27).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
 ...This would be the second coming, not the rapture... 

I believe all of the following passages speak of the same rapture at the same coming:

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming be a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), that the last trumpet be the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and that the 1st resurrection be the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture.

I believe the pre-trib doctrine is a false hope held by some unwilling to endure the sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3-5) that we Christians must "endure to the end" in the tribulation (Matthew 24:13) with "patience and faith" (Revelation 13:7-10; 14:12-13).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
 ...His holy ones have obeyed Him and separated themselves from the world, but the foolish were caught off guard and messing around in the cares of the world. This is why Jesus tells them that He doesn't know them or where they came from. They must now enter into the seven year tribulation and purify themselves. They will still be saved... 

In the parable of the 10 virgins, some believe the wise virgins must be taken in a pre-trib rapture. But note that the door is closed at Jesus' coming (Matthew 25:10, compare Luke 13:24-28), which Jesus had just finished saying would be "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

What does this mean? "While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept" (Matthew 25:5).

I believe Christians will either be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming or they will be lost, as the 5 foolish virgins are lost: "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25:10-12); "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them. Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:23-28).

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
 ..."Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation.... 

Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

postrib,
I see you are still holding on to your belief with all your might, but you are gambling my friend. You may not see it, but this is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt to me. You better hope you're not wrong, because you stand to lose an awful lot. Cheers!!

 

[JesusServant]

That made for good reading rollinThunder, and thanks for the interesting rebuttal post-trib...

I am just going to trust in God and that He has it all planned out for the best possible outcome in the end.  It is, however, difficult to wait as I have nothing or no place in this world so my heart continually mourns to be with Christ.  One of the most difficult obstacles to overcome is living in this world and not being of this world.  We have to work and spread the Gospel of Christ, but we still long to be with Him at the same time, it will be so wonderful when it all comes together that I think we'll all be speechless for about half of eternity

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Rev. 3:10 is not talking about rapture.

"Hour of temptation" is not 7 years of Tribulation period.

We do not have to wait for hour of temptation to come. Christians already face temptations in their lifetime since Early Church.

Tempation is not wrath. It is trials.

Rev. 3:10 same with 1 Cor. 10:13. It is talking about temptation, not wrath. Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep the commandments of God, God will protect us from the temptations. Or, if we do not keep the commandments, we might face serious problems.

Rev. 4:1 is not rapture. Rev. 4:1 is talking about John's vision, that he was called up to heaven by the angel, to show him to see the future things.

Rev. 4:1 does not saying Jesus shall descend out of the heaven at rapture.

Also, Revelation chapter does not saying anything about the Second Advent nothing at all.

The context of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 focus on the activity around the throne in heaven. It is occuring right now.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib
Rev. 3:10 is not talking about rapture.

"Hour of temptation" is not 7 years of Tribulation period.

We do not have to wait for hour of temptation to come. Christians already face temptations in their lifetime since Early Church.

Tempation is not wrath. It is trials.

Rev. 3:10 same with 1 Cor. 10:13. It is talking about temptation, not wrath. Rev. 3:10 promises us, IF we keep the commandments of God, God will protect us from the temptations. Or, if we do not keep the commandments, we might face serious problems.

Rev. 4:1 is not rapture. Rev. 4:1 is talking about John's vision, that he was called up to heaven by the angel, to show him to see the future things.

Rev. 4:1 does not saying Jesus shall descend out of the heaven at rapture.

Also, Revelation chapter does not saying anything about the Second Advent nothing at all.

The context of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 focus on the activity around the throne in heaven. It is occuring right now.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

It seams you post-tribbers are all avoiding the new evidence I presented here.  You're not trying to change the subject are ya??  I disagree with your interpretation of Rev. 3:10, so what about the new evidence??

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...so what about the new evidence?...

Note again that just as God didn't have to rapture Noah into heaven to keep him from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by postrib
Note again that just as God didn't have to rapture Noah into heaven to keep him from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.

God needed to use Noah in a different program, to replenish the earth's population.  If He would have raptured Noah, then none of us would be here now.  There would be no one left for Christ to rule and reign over.  God never said that He was going to rapture Noah.  Noah did however, escape the destruction.  He was not protected through it.  He was floating high above the highest mountains, which is a beautiful model of what the rapture will be like for those who are ready.  If Noah was protected in the flood, then howcome he never got wet??  Just as the bride will not have to burn in the earth's next destruction.

A better picture for you post-tribbers would be the story of Lot, where he and his family are pictured as runniing for their lives.  The story of Lot also gives us a picture of Jacob's trouble.  It appears that he is part of the remnant of Israel that God will spare.  But Lot missed God's best.  He never made it to God's Holy Mountain.  He settled for the little town instead.

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...God never said that He was going to rapture Noah...

Does God ever promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?  

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...the bride will not have to...

Didn't Jesus let his own body suffer at the hands of evil men even to the point of letting them crucify him? Are we better than Jesus himself, are we more precious than the Lord himself? "The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20); "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29); "The sufferings of Christ abound in us" (2 Corinthians 1:5); "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Philippians 3:10); "And fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church" (Colossians 1:24).

Didn't Jesus let his bride go through the terrible days of persecution and martyrdom under the Roman emperors? How will our tribulation under the Antichrist be any different? When we Christians suffer and die, are we really harmed? "To live is Christ, and to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21); "Some of you shall they cause to be put to death... But there shall not an hair of your head perish" (Luke 21:16, 18); "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).  

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...Jacob's trouble...

Does the Bible say that the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7-8) will be the entire tribulation?

If we equate the time of Jacob's trouble with the entire tribulation, then are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Jacob?

Note the similarity between Jeremiah 30:7's "time of Jacob's trouble" and Daniel 12:1's "time of trouble," and between Jeremiah 30:7's "so that none is like it" and Daniel 12:1's "such as never was," and between Jeremiah 30:7's "he shall be saved out of it" and Daniel 12:1's "at that time thy people shall be delivered."

Daniel 12:1 (and so Jeremiah 30:7) will occur after all of the events of Daniel 11, and will be right before Israel's resurrection (at the 2nd coming) in Daniel 12:2, just as Jeremiah 30:7 will be right before Israel's deliverance (at the 2nd coming) in Jeremiah 30:8.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by postrib
Does God ever promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?  

Does God ever promise a rapture after the tribulation?  This is the second coming.  All nations will mourn and they will all be gathered.  Do you expect to be judged with the world?  Don't you know that judgment begins with the house of God? 

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by postrib


If we equate the time of Jacob's trouble with the entire tribulation, then are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Jacob?

I don't expect to be here in the tribulation at all.  I'm not a member of all nations, kindreds, people and tongues.  These are people in the world, but God has called his chosen out of the world. 

1 Peter 2:9-11 - "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.  (10) Once you were no people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.  (11) Beloved, I beseech you as aliens and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh that wage war against your soul.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Rollin,

Aren't you an American? If you saying yes, then, you are part of America - nation.

Do you speaking language(tongue)? If you saying yes, then you can speak English!

1 Peter 2:9 telling us, the picture of God's family. We are spiritually nation - Israel. Because Christ called us out of the darkness through the gospel.

You yet show us where the verse saying rapture will occur BEFORE tribulation.

I ask you, please show us, where verse in the Bible saying rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the Second Advent?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...Does God ever promise a rapture after the tribulation?...  

Yes. Jesus promises that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...This is the second coming...

Could all of the following passages speak of the same rapture at the same coming?

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

Doesn't the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture require that the 2nd coming be a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), that the last trumpet be the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and that the 1st resurrection be the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it doesn't really make sense of scripture?

Could the pre-trib doctrine be a false hope held by some unwilling to endure the sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3-5) that we Christians must "endure to the end" in the tribulation (Matthew 24:13) with "patience and faith" (Revelation 13:7-10; 14:12-13)?

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...All nations will mourn...  

While Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 say that at Jesus' coming "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn," Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the gathering together of us believers when Jesus comes "in his glory" -- and surely then we will not be mourning like the unbelievers will be, for "when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:13).

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...they will all be gathered...  

Note that Matthew 24:31 says only that "the elect" will be gathered.

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...Don't you know that judgment begins with the house of God?...  

Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged before Armageddon: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5); "The LORD will judge his people" (Psalm 135:14); "The Lord shall judge his people" (Hebrews 10:30).

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...I'm not a member of all nations, kindreds, people and tongues.  These are people in the world, but God has called his chosen out of the world... 

Aren't the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" Christians? Would it be said of the unsaved that they "stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb" (Revelation 5:9)?

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by postrib
Aren't the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" Christians? Would it be said of the unsaved that they "stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb" (Revelation 5:9)?

Yes, this does show where we came from.  It's who we were, not who we are.  We are aliens and strangers.  In the world, but no longer of it (separation).  This is why Jesus tells the foolish virgins that He doesn't know them or where they came from.  Why do you think you will still have to go through the tribulation when these don't??   

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Rollin,

Simple, in Matt 28:19 tells us, Jesus says, GO ye therefore, and teach ALL NATIONS ...."

Many nations become saved since Early Church to today.

Nations are born again Christians.

But, not all individuals of the nations are saved. Because of their choice to make decision.

I am American, America is a nation.

You are America, so, therefore you are part of the nation!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

RollinThunder,

Why do you think you will still have to go through the tribulation

Because, Jesus tells us in John 16:33, that we should have tribulation. Jesus does not promise us, that we will escape from tribulation. Many Christuians are already face tribulaitons since Early Church to today.

Apostle Paul tells us, in Acts 14:22, that we must go through MUCH tribulation.

Yes, the church is through tribulations right now since Early Church today. The Church will continue through Tribulation TILL Christ comes with his angels - 2 Thess 1:4-7.

We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess 3:3-4.

Yes, the Bible teaches us, that we should face tribulations first.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib
RollinThunder,



Because, Jesus tells us in John 16:33, that we should have tribulation. Jesus does not promise us, that we will escape from tribulation. Many Christuians are already face tribulaitons since Early Church to today.

Apostle Paul tells us, in Acts 14:22, that we must go through MUCH tribulation.

Yes, the church is through tribulations right now since Early Church today. The Church will continue through Tribulation TILL Christ comes with his angels - 2 Thess 1:4-7.

We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess 3:3-4.

Yes, the Bible teaches us, that we should face tribulations first.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Again, there are two different types of tribulation.  One is our daily tribulations, but the one I am referring to is the tribulation period that will last 7 years.  This is Jacob's trouble, a time of punishment for Israel for not recognizing their Messiah during their time of visitation.  If God is going to punish Israel for not recognizing Christ, it would make no sense at all if He also punished christians who did receive Him.  However, there will be some believers who enter that 7 yr. tribulation, not because they didn't recognize Jesus, but because they aren't doers of His word or commands.  They will be given another oppurtunity to lay their lives down in the tribulation, but those who voluntarily lay their lives down ahead of time, these will escape and go to the wedding supper of the Lamb.   

Mark 8:34-35 - " And he called unto him the multitude with his disciples, and said unto them, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  (35) For whosoever would save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's shall save it."