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When a Fact Is Not a Fact

LightBearer

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A fact is something that exists beyond question. It is an actuality, an objective reality. It is established by solid evidence.

A theory is something unproved but at times assumed true for the sake of argument. It has yet to be proved as factual. Nonetheless, sometimes something is declared to be a fact that is only a theory.

The theory of organic evolution falls into this category.

ON September 30, 1986, The New York Times published an article by a New York University professor, Irving Kristol. His contention is that if evolution were taught in the public schools as the theory it is rather than as the fact it isn't, there would not be the controversy that now rages between evolution and creationism. Kristol stated: "There is also little doubt that it is this pseudoscientific dogmatism that has provoked the current religious reaction."

"Though this theory is usually taught as an established scientific truth," Kristol said, "it is nothing of the sort. It has too many lacunae [gaps]. Geological evidence does not provide us with the spectrum of intermediate species we would expect. Moreover, laboratory experiments reveal how close to impossible it is for one species to evolve into another, even allowing for selective breeding and some genetic mutation. . . . The gradual transformation of the population of one species into another is a biological hypothesis, not a biological fact."

The article touched a raw nerve in Harvard professor Stephen Jay Gould, a fervent defender of evolution as a fact, not just a theory. His rebuttal of Kristol's article was published in a popularized science magazine, Discover, January 1987 issue. It revealed the very dogmatism Kristol deplored.

In his protesting essay, Gould repeated a dozen times his assertion that evolution is a fact. A few examples: Darwin established "the fact of evolution." "The fact of evolution is as well established as anything in science (as secure as the revolution of the earth around the sun)." By the time Darwin died, "nearly all thinking people came to accept the fact of evolution." "Evolution is as well established as any scientific fact (I shall give the reasons in a moment)." "The fact of evolution rests upon copious data that fall, roughly, into three great classes."

For the first of these "three great classes" of "copious data," Gould cites as "direct evidence" for evolution the small-scale changes within species of moths, fruit flies, and bacteria. But such variations within species are irrelevant to evolution. Evolution's problem is to change one species into another species. Gould extols Theodosius Dobzhansky as "the greatest evolutionist of our century," but it is Dobzhansky himself who dismisses Gould's argument above as irrelevant.

Concerning the fruit flies of Gould's argument, Dobzhansky says mutations "usually show deterioration, breakdown, or disappearance of some organs. . . . Many mutations are, in fact, lethal to their possessors. Mutants which equal the normal fly in vigor are a minority, and mutants that would make a major improvement of the normal organization in the normal environments are unknown."

Science, the official magazine for the American Association for the Advancement of Science, also spiked Gould's argument: "Species do indeed have a capacity to undergo minor modifications in the physical and other characteristics, but this is limited and with a longer perspective it is reflected in an oscillation about a mean [a position about midway between extremes]." In both plants and animals, variations within a species will oscillate or move about like pellets shaken in a glass jar-the variations are held within the boundaries of the species just as the pellets are confined within the jar. Just as the Bible's account of creation says, a plant or an animal may vary, yet it is restricted to reproduce "according to its kind." Genesis 1:12, 21, 24, 25.

For the second of his three classes, Gould offers big mutations: "We have direct evidence for large-scale changes, based upon sequences in the fossil record." By saying the changes were large scale, one species changing into another in a few big jumps, he escapes the need for the nonexistent intermediate fossils. But in going from small changes to big jumps, he goes from the frying pan into the fire.

Kristol comments on this: "We just don't know of any such 'quantum jumps' that create new species, since most genetic mutations work against the survival of the individual." And Gould's "greatest evolutionist of our century," Theodosius Dobzhansky, agrees with Kristol. His statement about many mutations being lethal is especially true of large-scale, quantum-jump mutations; also significant are his words that 'mutations that make big improvements are unknown.' Lacking evidence for his large-scale changes, Gould falls back on the old timeworn dodge of evolutionists: "Our fossil record is so imperfect."

Gould does, however, offer as "direct evidence for large-scale changes" what he calls one of the "superb examples," namely, "human evolution in Africa." But evolutionists generally acknowledge that this field is far from superb. It is a hotbed of controversy, a battleground over teeth and bits of bone that evolutionists with vivid imaginations turn into hairy, stooped-over, beetle-browed ape-men. Once again, Dobzhansky is not supportive of Gould: "Even this relatively recent history [from ape to man] is shot through with uncertainties; authorities are often at odds, both about fundamentals and about details."

The last of Gould's "three great classes" that he says proves evolution to be a fact is resemblance between species. (The current trend, however, is to discount physical similarities as proof of relationship; genetic similarities are the new vogue for proving relationship, even in cases where physical characteristics differ greatly.) Gould offers two examples of relationship proved by resemblance. First: "Why does our body, from the bones of our back to the musculature of our belly, display the vestiges of an arrangement better suited for quadrupedal life if we aren't the descendants of four-footed creatures?"

A strange assertion. We can walk and run upright on two feet, do it continuously for many miles, with backbone and belly muscles very comfortable. Unless, of course, we spend most of our waking hours slumped inert in a chair, never exercising muscles of back and belly. But those trained for it can run down four-footed wild animals, exhausting them, and in the vast majority of cases, outliving them. We thrive on two feet; quadrupeds seem comfortable on four.

Gould's second example: "Why do the plants and animals of the Galapagos so closely resemble, but differ slightly from, the creatures of Ecuador, the nearest bit of land 600 miles to the east? . . . The similarities can only mean that Ecuadorian creatures colonized the Galapagos and then diverged by a natural process of evolution." What the similarities can and only do mean is variation within the species. The finches, for example, are still finches.

Gould ridicules believers in creation who argue that "God permits limited modification within created types, but that you can never change a cat into a dog." He then asks: "Who ever said that you could, or that nature did?" Nevertheless, he believes in a much harder change. Cat to dog would at least be mammal to mammal, whereas Gould says "dinosaurs evolve into birds."

Irving Kristol in his article in The New York Times concludes: "The current teaching of evolution in our public schools does indeed have an ideological bias against religious belief-teaching as 'fact' what is only hypothesis. . . . If believing Christians are persuaded that their children are not exposed to anti-religious instruction, one may reasonably hope that they will feel comfortable once again with this American tradition [separation of Church and State]."

Kristol shows the wisdom of this doctrine of separation when he says: "Theological issues can so easily become a focus of conflict." That is exactly what the "scientific creationism" advanced by some creationists would become if it was taught in the classroom. Several of its contentions are not Scriptural. To name only one, that the creative days of Genesis are 24-hour days. The Hebrew word translated "day" can be and is used in the Bible to be 12 hours, 24 hours, a season, a year, a thousand years, or several thousand years, depending on its particular setting and usage.

The classroom is not the place to air religious differences. Neither is it the place, as Kristol says, for teaching hypothetical evolution as a fact, when in actuality it has itself become a modern-day religion supported only by dogmatism.

Gould appropriately says that "myths become beliefs through adulterated repetition without proper documentation." True. That is how religious creeds were formed that say the Bible teaches that the soul is immortal, that wicked people are tormented in hellfire forever, that God is a Trinity of three persons in one, that the days of creation in Genesis chapter 1 are 24-hour days-and all of this without proper documentation from the Bible.

And that is also how the evolutionary litany that 'evolution is a fact' becomes a belief: through "repetition without proper documentation" from scientific evidence.
 
Since Gould's words seem important to this thread, lets quote them more fully:

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."
Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.


Gould as quoted in Evolution is A Fact and a Theory by Laurence Moran at TalkOrigins.org

As far as this bit goes:
Science, the official magazine for the American Association for the Advancement of Science, also spiked Gould's argument: "Species do indeed have a capacity to undergo minor modifications in the physical and other characteristics, but this is limited and with a longer perspective it is reflected in an oscillation about a mean [a position about midway between extremes]."

This looks like a classic out of context and/or misquote. I'd like a reference for the purpose of checking the accuracy of it.

As far as Irving Kristol is concerned, I'd like to see his credentials. To the best of my knowledge, he has no science education and is a conservative political pundit.
 
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Originally posted by LightBearer
ON September 30, 1986, The New York Times published an article by a New York University professor, Irving Kristol.

First of all, this is an editorial and not an article.  It is Kristol's opinion.  Second, Kristol is not a scientist.  He is a radical conservative who is probably belongs to the religious right.  He is certainly an absolutist. 

His contention is that if evolution were taught in the public schools as the theory it is rather than as the fact it isn't, there would not be the controversy that now rages between evolution and creationism. ...

"Though this theory is usually taught as an established scientific truth," Kristol said, "it is nothing of the sort.

Actually, evolution is an established scientific fact.  Kristol confuses scientific fact with absolute fact.  It is clear that no amount of evidence will convince him as to the usefulness of evolution in explaining the paleontological data.

It has too many lacunae [gaps]. Geological evidence does not provide us with the spectrum of intermediate species we would expect.

It does, however, provide us with information that is explained by evolution.  You can focus on all the 'gaps' that you want.  THe point is that there is a progression of lifeforms that is presently only explained by evolution.

Moreover, laboratory experiments reveal how close to impossible it is for one species to evolve into another, even allowing for selective breeding and some genetic mutation. . . .

'Laboratory experiments?'  Give me a break!  Kristol must have run out of other socio-economic subjects on that day.

The gradual transformation of the population of one species into another is a biological hypothesis, not a biological fact."

To an absolutist, no.

The article touched a raw nerve in Harvard professor Stephen Jay Gould, a fervent defender of evolution as a fact, not just a theory. His rebuttal of Kristol's article was published in a popularized science magazine, Discover, January 1987 issue. It revealed the very dogmatism Kristol deplored.

In his protesting essay, Gould repeated a dozen times his assertion that evolution is a fact. A few examples: Darwin established "the fact of evolution." "The fact of evolution is as well established as anything in science (as secure as the revolution of the earth around the sun)." By the time Darwin died, "nearly all thinking people came to accept the fact of evolution." "Evolution is as well established as any scientific fact (I shall give the reasons in a moment)." "The fact of evolution rests upon copious data that fall, roughly, into three great classes."

And you are saying that Kristol was NOT being dogmatic?  Are you saying that only evolutionists are dogmatic?  LOL!

Science, the official magazine for the American Association for the Advancement of Science, also spiked Gould's argument: "Species do indeed have a capacity to undergo minor modifications in the physical and other characteristics, but this is limited and with a longer perspective it is reflected in an oscillation about a mean [a position about midway between extremes]."

What?  No reference?  How do you expect us to verify this statement?  I dare say that this quote is out of context.  I do not see where Science says, 'Gould is out to lunch...'

In both plants and animals, variations within a species will oscillate or move about like pellets shaken in a glass jar-the variations are held within the boundaries of the species just as the pellets are confined within the jar. Just as the Bible's account of creation says, a plant or an animal may vary, yet it is restricted to reproduce "according to its kind." Genesis 1:12, 21, 24, 25.

Oh, so you WILL give us a reference to your bible quote...

For the second of his three classes, Gould offers big mutations: "We have direct evidence for large-scale changes, based upon sequences in the fossil record." By saying the changes were large scale, one species changing into another in a few big jumps, he escapes the need for the nonexistent intermediate fossils. But in going from small changes to big jumps, he goes from the frying pan into the fire.

Kristol comments on this: "We just don't know of any such 'quantum jumps' that create new species, since most genetic mutations work against the survival of the individual." And Gould's "greatest evolutionist of our century," Theodosius Dobzhansky, agrees with Kristol. His statement about many mutations being lethal is especially true of large-scale, quantum-jump mutations; also significant are his words that 'mutations that make big improvements are unknown.' Lacking evidence for his large-scale changes, Gould falls back on the old timeworn dodge of evolutionists: "Our fossil record is so imperfect."

Hmm, I wonder why Dobzhansky is or was still an evolutionist.  Perhaps you could enlighten us.

Gould does, however, offer as "direct evidence for large-scale changes" what he calls one of the "superb examples," namely, "human evolution in Africa." But evolutionists generally acknowledge that this field is far from superb. It is a hotbed of controversy, a battleground over teeth and bits of bone that evolutionists with vivid imaginations turn into hairy, stooped-over, beetle-browed ape-men. Once again, Dobzhansky is not supportive of Gould: "Even this relatively recent history [from ape to man] is shot through with uncertainties; authorities are often at odds, both about fundamentals and about details."

Then please show us where Dobzhansky says that, 'Clearly, there was no such thing as human evolution...'

Pardon me for being skeptical, but I think you have been taken in by the old out-of-context quote syndrome.  The lack of references and the lack of clear, refuting statements by Dobzhansky are extremely suspicious.

Maybe more later.
 
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For the first of these "three great classes" of "copious data," Gould cites as "direct evidence" for evolution the small-scale changes within species of moths, fruit flies, and bacteria. But such variations within species are irrelevant to evolution. Evolution's problem is to change one species into another species. Gould extols Theodosius Dobzhansky as "the greatest evolutionist of our century," but it is Dobzhansky himself who dismisses Gould's argument above as irrelevant.

Concerning the fruit flies of Gould's argument, Dobzhansky says mutations "usually show deterioration, breakdown, or disappearance of some organs. . . . Many mutations are, in fact, lethal to their possessors. Mutants which equal the normal fly in vigor are a minority, and mutants that would make a major improvement of the normal organization in the normal environments are unknown."

How, exactly, does Dobzhansky dismiss Gould's position? The quote from Dobzhansky that presumably is supposed to illustrate this, assuming it applies only to non-neutral mutations in its original context, is common knowledge. Any school aged child should know this, and Gould is most certainly aware of it. How it is supposed to show a dismissal of Gould is beyond me.
 
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I just discovered an amazing thing All but the last couple of lines of the Opening Post in this thread appear elsewhere on the net, almost verbatim. They are broken up and interspersed with the comments of Alan Feuerbacher, apparently a creationist Jehovah's Witness, who saw these words in an article in Awake magazine (a Jehovah's Witness publication if I am not mistaken), and actually took the trouble to tell us where he got this stuff, rather than trying to pass it off as his own writing.

Now, he may have only been honest about that because he disagreed with the particulars of how Awake! constructed their argument, and wanted to show they were wrong. Perhaps he would have let us believe he wrote it himself if he were actually planning to employ that argument, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He also quoted parts of Gould's response to Kristol independently - and told us that it was Gould's work. He cited some words of Isaac Asimov and told us that Asimov wrote them.

I wonder why the Christian Forums member here has decided that we did not deserve to know that he was borrowing someone else's work and presenting it as his own? Perhaps he is an evolutionist pretending to be a dishonest creationist in hopes of discrediting them? Evolution doesn't need that kind of support! If that is what he is doing, he should stop! Or perhaps he is a dishonest creationist? I won't point the finger of blame, but I would like to hear his explanation.

Amusingly enough, Feuerbacher seems to have also noticed that the citation to Science was missing, and that this passage was most likely an out of context quote, as the rest of us have. I wonder why the person who borrowed this article from Awake didn't notice it & cut that part out?
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Originally posted by Jerry Smith
I wonder why the Christian Forums member here has decided that we did not deserve to know that he was borrowing someone else's work and presenting it as his own? Perhaps he is an evolutionist pretending to be a dishonest creationist in hopes of discrediting them? Evolution doesn't need that kind of support! If that is what he is doing, he should stop! Or perhaps he is a dishonest creationist? I won't point the finger of blame, but I would like to hear his explanation.

Yeah, I noticed this, too. Hardly the first time it's happened, though (nor will it be the last).

But, of course, the minute someone does this, credibility goes right out the window.

Btw, here's the critique of the article LightBearer posted, as Jerry referenced: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/ce09.htm
 
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chickenman

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I just love it when conservatives without the appropriate scientific education start spouting off about what scientific facts are

Phillip Johnson is the best at that - he seems to think the scientific community should change scientific methodology at his request, simply because it produced something he didn't agree with
 
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DaisyDay

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Alan Feuerbacher's critique of the Awake! article is pretty thorough - he esssentially rips it to shreds. It's odd because he seems to be a creationist who believes in evolution.

It is evident that the Society's writers have only a superficial understanding of science. Therefore they often present arguments that are biased and incomplete. Nowhere is this more evident than when the Society publishes material on the theory of evolution. Often their difficulty manifests itself in the presentation of incomplete data, or in a series of partial quotations, as illustrated above. At other times their difficulty is with their overall understanding or their reasoning process. This is well illustrated by the Society's statements about whether various aspects of evolution are "facts" or are "theories." In this section we will examine these difficulties of understanding.

 Critique of the Awake article
 
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lucaspa

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LB, I'm going to add only two comments to the otherwise excellent critique of the Awake article (which you failed to cite as such, a very serious error of scholarship).

1. Notice that it is dated from 1987. All the references are before that. Now, you must know that science continues to find more data. What you must do is check to see if yesterday's opinions have been refuted by newer data. You didn't do that, and most of the "there is no data" have been found since.

2. The old saw that no new species arise was false even by 1986. It's just that Kristol was apparently unaware of that. One of my favorite studies demonstrating speciation (by natural selection even) is G Kilias, SN Alahiotis, and M Pelecanos A multifactorial genetic investigation of speciation theory using drosophila melanogaster Evolution 34:730-737, 1980. That's 6 years before Kristol wrote, and that paper has about 20 references to other studies with observed speciation, including this one: JM Thoday, Disruptive selection. Proc. Royal Soc. London B. 182: 109-143, 1972. That's 14 years before Kristol and 30 years ago now.

All this tells us is that Kristol is very ignorant, especially for a "professor", of the scientific literature he is supposed to know.
 
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DNAunion: ROTFLMAO!!! Like you'd know one if it bit you on the ****.

And what brought on this bit of venom? The fact that you still have not made a case in the thread where you flame Miller? I am patient enough to wait on you to post those identifying criteria on the Behe's Bulldog thread - are you not patient enough to wait until you have done so and the issue has been threshed out before declaring "victory"?

You are showing poor etiquette.

By the way, apparently I "guessed" right on this one - several other people independently came to the same conclusion as I. None of us knows for sure, because the ripped off Awake article does not provide a citation to Science that we can check for accuracy, but it sure looks like a duck and quacks like one.

And, if I'm not mistaken, I'm now hearing the quack of a sore-loser duck coming from somewhere in this thread.
 
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Jerry Smith: This looks like a classic out of context and/or misquote.

DNAunion: ROTFLMAO!!! Like you'd know one if it bit you on the ****.

Jerry Smith: And what brought on this bit of venom?

DNAunion: Your blatant double standards and hypocrisy.. that's all.

As far as the fact that Miller misrepresented Behe, I've handed you the evidence on a silver platter. I showed Miller's (mis)quotes, Behe's original quotes, and explained in clear detail, multiple times, how it is that Miller misrepresented Behe. And you've been fighting vigorously against that obvious fact for weeks.

But then, when "the other side" is likely guilty of improper quoting, it took you less than 30 minutes to post your accusation of wrongdoing.

It was the irony and/or hypocrisy of your comment that brought on my sarcastic humor.
 
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Screaming "guilty" still does not convict. If you cannot wait for that verdict until you have prosecuted the case and shown guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, then you will probably remain lonely in your personal belief that Miller has done wrong.

Your attempt to start a flame war with me and others for simply having enough patience to hear the defense, and to wait on the prosecution to produce more evidence to move the case forward just makes the prosecution look desparate.
 
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And if you'll notice, I recognize the probability of a misquote in the creationist literature there, but since it is an improperly cited quote, I cannot verify that it is an improper quote in and of itself. Nor will I risk my reputation ranting that it is without proper evidence. I will only note the probability, and move on from there.
 
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Jerry Smith: Screaming "guilty" still does not convict.

DNAunion: Any rational and impartial jury would have already unanimously convicted Miller. That you refuse to accept the obvious - which was supported by plenty of evidence on day one - only makes you look stubborn and biased.
 
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Ok, then. Well, could you please show this stubborn, foolish, and biased old man the identifying criteria whereby he might recognize what in a system is I/C (and what is not), so that he might see that Miller didn't use those criteria in his refutation? Then this old stubborn man might overcome his foolish bias and agree with you that Miller has done wrong!
 
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DNAunion: Funny, Jerry Smith, but it looks like YOU are trying to fan the flames. Go back and read your last several posts and notice the tone of your "voice" and the choice of words you use.

That's a neat (underhanded) ploy you got there. Fan the flames but point to the other guy like he's to blame.
 
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