312 Azusa St

[Frisbee]

I'm reading a book right now about the Azusa Street Mission where there was a tremndous outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I'm just getting started, but so far they are describing the background of Pastor William Seymour.

How much do you all know about 312 Azusa St and the Azusa Street Mission?

Does anyone have any insight to share?

 

[IisJustMe]

I'm reading a book right now about the Azusa Street Mission where there was a tremndous outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I'm just getting started, but so far they are describing the background of Pastor William Seymour.

How much do you all know about 312 Azusa St and the Azusa Street Mission?

Does anyone have any insight to share?

I do, but you probably won't like it, so I'll leave that one alone. You might want to ask yourself, in doing some Internet searches on the events there: Do those really sound like things the Holy Spirit would do to people?

 

[HeyHomie]

I have heard of the Azuza Street Revival, but I haven't studied it or anything.

 

[Frisbee]

One thing I see is that it upset the establishment greatly. In a day and age when racism and sexism was a barrier between believers, God settled the matter just like He did with the gentiles after Pentecost... He spoke through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Now obviously if it wasn't the Holy Spirit moving and speaking in and through these revivals, then that changes things so maybe God does like blacks and whites to keep seperate in churches.

I was being sarcastic

But seriously, we can and should look at this objectively and understand two things for starters...

1) Not everyone who claimed to have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in a modern day outpouring of the Holy Spirit as spoken of by the prophet Joel, did. I'm certain some people were faking it. This doesn't mean they all were though.

2) We need to understand that it was no happenstance that God specifically chose to pour out His Spirit on people regardless of who and what they were in a land that was still healing from the Civil War, by a preacher who was the son of slaves.

 

[ImmersionX]

I've studied it, and it was basically a grotesque misrepresentation of what was claimed to have been happening there at that time. Just like the Toronto Airport Blessing and the Pensecola Outpouring. Be wary of so called revivals now a days...be very careful otherwise you could get swept up into a counterfeit revival very easily
peace.

 

[Frisbee]

Could it be that the "grotesque misrepresentation" is misplaced? Where you there?

 

[ImmersionX]

Could it be that the "grotesque misrepresentation" is misplaced? Where you there?

Dude, you as the OP asked for insight into this event...you got my insight.
Nuff said.

 

[Frisbee]

There's a difference between "insight" and putting something in your sights. The words "grotesque misrepresentation" is a pejorative slam, not insight.

But let me ask you a question...

So where would yo uhave come down when you heard that the Holy SPirit had been poured on the gentiles? How would you have deliniated between a grotesque misrepresentation of the gospel, and God's working of the Holy Spirit?

 

[IisJustMe]

Azusa Street, Toronto and Brownsville cannot be viewed for authenticity without viewing the biblical evidence for the empowerment by the Holy Spirit of believers in the first century. As has been said, many times, the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" at Pentecost and the three apparent duplications of that empowerment in Acts points to the absolute necessity for an apostle to be present, and there is absolutely no evidence that anyone the apostles "laid hands on" for these blessings were able to "pass it on." You must take the Bible's silence on that subject not as lack of information so much as an established parameter for the gifting. I Corinthians 13 states emphatically that the "signs and wonders" gifts of prophecy, knowledge and tongues were to die out soon after Paul wrote the book. It clearly states in the original Greek that when God's word is completed there will be no need for any of them. You can try to deny or build a road around that mountain, but it won't work. The outrageous and borderline demonic behavior seen in the "gifted" since the "rebirth" of Pentecostal teaching is reason enough to for me to avoid these kinds of "manifestations." You say the events have been distorted? I think not. The observers, many of whom were themselves charismatic or Pentecostal worshipers, were frightened by the "lower spirit" nature of these "manifestations." I don't buy it. I never will. There's my input. As Immersion said, that's what you asked for, that's what you got. Trying to argue or change my mind will utterly fail.

 

[HeyHomie]

But let me ask you a question...

So where would yo uhave come down when you heard that the Holy SPirit had been poured on the gentiles? How would you have deliniated between a grotesque misrepresentation of the gospel, and God's working of the Holy Spirit?

You seem to be suggesting that if one doesn't believe that the HS was outpoured at the Azusa Street Revival, then they must not believe that it was outpoured at Pentecost.

Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Frisbee]

I think we're not connecting very well here, let me try again...

In Teen Challenge I received the laying on of hands, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and subsequently speak in tongues. There is not a layer of inquiry so to speak, from where I sit. I am as sure of what happened on that day about 25 years ago as I am that it is in fact me sitting here typing this right now. To question this is not even on the table as far as I'm concerned. But I do understand how and why folks who do not share my experience with a brugh with God like that, have questions. Of course you do! You would be ill-advised not to. In fact, I know a lot of people who have admitted to me that they have faked speaking in tongues just to fit in wtih the church they were going to. So in my opinion, folks who haven't been baptized in the Holy Spirit have every right to look at it with a cocked eyebrow and a critical analysis of what people tell them.

So when someone says that what I know to be true is a "grotesque misrepresentation of the gospel" in a blanket statement against something that they are convinced is of the devil (or if not, I'd like to know what they think it is from then), it should be easy to understand why someone like myself takes umbrage to being treated like that by a fellow brother or sister in the Lord.

I can way without reservation that the batism of the Holy Spirit has tremendously helped my faith, and is one of the biggest blessings I have received in my entire life. Aside from being saved, which of couse is by far the greater act here, it was the high point of my life and walk with the Lord. If that is of the devil, then maybe I'm missing what the devil got out of strenghtening my faith in God.

I'm only in the 22nd chapter of the book right now, but I am learning that the man that most of the events at Azusa Street revovled around, Pastor William Seymour, had evolved into a set of beleifs that I absolutely agree with. Evolved is important. He is often smeared and cast in a very negative light when folks look at his past as he was maturing and growing as a christian towards being used by God in the Azusa Street Mission, and some of his background is a tremendous cause for concern. But as I said, he evolved towards a solid biblical view that embrace without any resevations whatsoever.

So what's the deal then?

Either I was possesed by the devil and fooled into believing that I was baptised in the Holy Spirit, or I was baptized by the Holy Spirit. It's an either or question. Same goes for the Azusa Street revival. Doesn't mean that one makes the other true or false, but it does mean that the question is the same. I personally believe, based upon what I've read and know about it, that there were indeed "fakers" involved in what happened in Azusa Street and the Azusa Street Mission. In fact I have no doubt whatsoever that the emotionally charged atmosphere drew in that particular element. But I also beleive that the vast majority of claims there were true and that it was God moving mightily in what the prophet Joel described as the latter rain.

 

[IisJustMe]

I think we're not connecting very well here, let me try again...

In Teen Challenge I received the laying on of hands, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and subsequently speak in tongues.

First, when you believed in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, that was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He entered in based on your true confession, accepted by God. There is no "second baptism" for believers. What your denomination(s) claim is that "second baptism" is, I fear, something much less lower, base on a mistaken interpretation of the gifting of the apostles to preach the word until the time arrived that God's word -- His revelation of Himself -- was complete. My question to you would be, can someone experience a relationship with Jesus Christ without those "gifts." If the answer is no, then I have to question whether someone answering negatively is truly saved. Now, if the answer is "yes" then we are brothers in Christ. I don't worship Christ, I don't "experience God" the way you do, and I expect you to respect my method of expressing my love and devotion to Jesus.

Finally, I understand exactly where you're coming from. I'm not arguing this any further. I don't believe the "signs and wonders" gifts are valid today, and while you practice them and I accept you as my brother, I don't think you should be pushing me to accept the existence of those gifts as valid any more than I should try to push you to abandon them.

 

[ImmersionX]

I don't want to sound like a doomsayer, but laying on of hands, then subsequent speaking in tongues...how can I put this...it's not from God(anymore). It's sociopsychological manipulation by the leader of the environment you were in at the time. Peer pressure, subtle hypnosis, and God forbid(and I am serious when I state this...!) demonic spirit manifestations are very real explainations for what you experienced. I don't buy that Pentecostalism is a valid faith, nor the Charasmatic movement, nor anyone claiming to be able to control the "power of the Spirit", nor any other false prophets or heretic that manipulates as a means to an end. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. I realize that I just invalidated it seems a major chunk of the body of Christ...well, in my opinion, I did not, due to the simple fact that those that I mentioned were never a valid part of the Body of Christ to begin with. Paul warns WAY TOO MANY TIMES concerning false prophets in the Church...well the entire thing all started back at Azusa, and continues to this day with Slaying in the Spirit, healings, Word of Faith, all preachers on TBN, Benny Hinn be the Master of Lies and Heresy, and more modern movements such as the Vineyard churches, John Wimber, Arnott, you get my point. The false prophets are abound in todays church...and seems people all over the world are falling victim and never truely knowing what salvation the bible is truely speaking of. This is serious business, it pains me to bear witness to it, I pray for the Church everyday....I will not be persuaded...nor will I hold back and be politcally correct about anything regarding these issues. I won't be persuaded, say what you will. If you don't get what Im saying here, do research, stop living in an experience based faith....!!!! and wise up...cause your salvation is at stake. People that find themselves in a church that was founded, by one man, or based on 2-3 partial verses of scripture I pray for everyday, due to the simple fact that if they don't wise up, use one of the TRUE gifts of the Spirit, called Wisdom....they will continue to be on a very bad road indeed.

 

[Frisbee]

Actually it is not my salvation which is at stake. There is only one sin that is unforgivable, and if anyone is nearing that possiblility it certainly isn't me.

 

[ImmersionX]

If speaking in tongues was a one time experience for you, use it, learn from it's deception, and I believe you will be just fine....just be sure to duck next time a "minister of the Lord" tries to lay hands on you.

 

[Frisbee]

Maybe you should re-read what I said. And it wasn't "one-time" or an "experience" in the sense that you're trying to paint. I can and do speak (pray privately actually) in tongues to this day and will for the rest of my life... that is until the perfect comes!

I really don't have any desire to get into a big argument with you guys though. This is the non-demoninational forum, and some of us are charismatic too. As a matter of fact I read that a response given to Calvary Chapel folks who wanted their own space here was that Calvary Chapel is not a denomination, which is true, and that there is plenty of CC folks in both the non-denom and the pentecostal groups who would welcome us. Perhaps it was a mistake for me to open this thread here.

Anyone know how I can get it moved to the Spirit-Filled - Pentecostal/ Charismatic area?

 

[IisJustMe]

I can see this discussion has the potential to end badly. Hurt feelings. Name calling. Unnecessary distractions from fellowship. Fris, this N/D forum is mostly evangelistic conservatives, not pentecostal/charismatic. There is a separate forum for that. I'm not saying your not welcome here, because obviously you consider yourself non-denominational, and in fact I encourage you to stay because, even though we got off on the wrong foot, you're a nice addition around here. But this is a touchy subject here. If you choose to continue it, you might ask a mod to move the thread to the debate forum. At least people will know what to expect.

 

[Frisbee]

I appreciate that IisJustMe, I really do. I don't like to see things like this de-evolve into fights. So how do you notify a mod and request the move?

 

[IamRedeemed]

No, brother there is no reason for you to have this topic moved, just because there are believers
among us who don't believe. If they want to avoid all speech about the move of the Holy Spirit that
started at Pentecost and will not end until the rapture of the Church, or they want to control it and
not allow it, because of their Biblically unsupported belief in cessationalism, let them rally for a
cessationalist forum. Like it or not there are non-Denominational members who believe who are
not Pentecostals. I am tired of these threads being bombarded with cessationalist preach by
unbelieving believers. If you don't believe, avoid the threads, but do not try to control fellowship
regarding the workings of the Holy Spirit in the Church today among those of us who do.
(and have Biblical support for)

And no, just because we believe does not mean we believe barking is of the Holy Ghost. It truly does
not have to be one extreme or the other and I wish those of you who struggle with this, would seek
the Lord regarding it and refrain from situations where you have the potential to blaspheme the Holy Ghost
as that is irreconcilable as you know and therefore is urgent that you understand to utilize extreme caution
and seek the Lord before you condemn anything you don't currently receive or understand or reject out of
extreme fear of err, or whatever it is that keeps you bound in unbelief.

God bless

Maybe you should re-read what I said. And it wasn't "one-time" or an "experience" in the sense that you're trying to paint. I can and do speak (pray privately actually) in tongues to this day and will for the rest of my life... that is until the perfect comes!

I really don't have any desire to get into a big argument with you guys though. This is the non-demoninational forum, and some of us are charismatic too. As a matter of fact I read that a response given to Calvary Chapel folks who wanted their own space here was that Calvary Chapel is not a denomination, which is true, and that there is plenty of CC folks in both the non-denom and the pentecostal groups who would welcome us. Perhaps it was a mistake for me to open this thread here.

Anyone know how I can get it moved to the Spirit-Filled - Pentecostal/ Charismatic area?

 

[IamRedeemed]

It doesn't have to. Those of you who do not believe, if you come into a thread and you see what the topic is about, and you know it is something you cannot add to anything that would be deemed fellowship or beneficial, you can be a good brother (which I know you are) and just bow out and not participate. It is just the right thing to do. We should not be made to feel unwelcome. You are actually a Baptist at heart who is currently attending a Non-Denom church, so you are kind of here by default and not by beliefs. In all honesty, your beliefs are more Baptist than they are Non-Denom, so in the spirit of the right hand of fellowship that was extended and continues to be extended to you, you should not try to take over the Non-Denom section with Baptist beliefs and should be maybe a little more reserved in some of your assertions, as I said in my other post, cessationalism cannot be supported by sound doctrine in the Word and there are Non-Denominational members who do believe who are not Pentecostals. He should not have to move it to the debate forum, he wasn't looking for debate. he was looking for fellowship with other non-Denominational members who are like minded. So, like I said, the thing to do if you know you don't agree and it is not a debate topic is to avoid the thread
and allow others who do, to fellowship.

God bless brother Mike

I can see this discussion has the potential to end badly. Hurt feelings. Name calling. Unnecessary distractions from fellowship. Fris, this N/D forum is mostly evangelistic conservatives, not pentecostal/charismatic. There is a separate forum for that. I'm not saying your not welcome here, because obviously you consider yourself non-denominational, and in fact I encourage you to stay because, even though we got off on the wrong foot, you're a nice addition around here. But this is a touchy subject here. If you choose to continue it, you might ask a mod to move the thread to the debate forum. At least people will know what to expect.