30,000 denominations Argument

[Crazy Liz]

Why they are so many separate Baptist denoms does not concern me.

You do realize, though, that it does concern some people, and that it is the reason for the whole 30,000 (or 8,000) denominations argument, don't you?

 

[Diane_Windsor]

You do realize, though, that it does concern some people, and that it is the reason for the whole 30,000 (or 8,000) denominations argument, don't you?

Of course, but when all the chips are down they are still Baptists, Presbys, Catholics, Lutherans, etc.

diane

 

[ZiSunka]

List of Rites of the Catholic Church

• The Roman Tradition
  1. the Latin Rite (most Catholics belong to this rite)
  2. the Ambrosian Rite
  3. the Mozarabic Rite
  4. the Slavonic Rite
  5. the Gallican Rite
• The Antiochene Tradition
  
  1. The Maronite Rite
  2. The West Syrian Rite
  3. The Malankara Rite
• The Chaldean Tradition
  
  1. The Chaldean Rite
  2. The Malabar Rite
• The Armenian Tradition
  
  1. The Armenian Rite
• The Alexandrian Tradition
  
  1. The Coptic Rite
  2. The Ethiopic Rite
• The Byzantine Tradition
  
  1. The Melkite Rite
  2. The Ukrainian Rite
  3. The Russian Rite
  4. The Bulgarian Rite
  5. The Greek Rite
  6. The Georgian Rite
  7. The Italo-Albanian Rite
  8. The Romanian Rite
  9. The Serbian Rite

Plus, each of these rites have subdivisions within them. If someone tells you that protestants are clearly not of God because of all the divisions and that catholicism is of God because there is only one, show them this list and ask them to explain what they mean when they say catholics are all one.

My mother grew up Byzantine Russian rite, but raised us Byzantine Greek rite. Their belief and doctrines and practices are quite different, just like protestants are.

 

[SumTinWong]

I hadn't heard that before. Thanks for that lambslove.

 

[Crazy Liz]

LL, I think their practices are quite different, but their doctrines do not separate them. I look at splits because of practice (or geography) quite differently from splits because of doctrine.

There is a difference between diversity and division. Some protestant denominations are separate from each other because of diversity in practice or geographical separation, but still regard each other as brothers and sisters who can freely worship and commune together, as do all of these Catholic rites. Too many protestant denominations, though, have split because of some doctrinal disagreement that one or both sides felt made it impossible to view the other side in this way.

Diversity is good. Division is not.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

List of Rites of the Catholic Church

• The Roman Tradition
  1. the Latin Rite (most Catholics belong to this rite)
  2. the Ambrosian Rite
  3. the Mozarabic Rite
  4. the Slavonic Rite
  5. the Gallican Rite
• The Antiochene Tradition
  
  1. The Maronite Rite
  2. The West Syrian Rite
  3. The Malankara Rite
• The Chaldean Tradition
  
  1. The Chaldean Rite
  2. The Malabar Rite
• The Armenian Tradition
  
  1. The Armenian Rite
• The Alexandrian Tradition
  
  1. The Coptic Rite
  2. The Ethiopic Rite
• The Byzantine Tradition
  
  1. The Melkite Rite
  2. The Ukrainian Rite
  3. The Russian Rite
  4. The Bulgarian Rite
  5. The Greek Rite
  6. The Georgian Rite
  7. The Italo-Albanian Rite
  8. The Romanian Rite
  9. The Serbian Rite

Wow, this is awesome. Where did you get this?
GEL

 

[Crazy Liz]

Fascinating, but these rites have more to do with what color robes to wear on what day or whether the offering should be taken before or after the sermon than about any real division.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Fascinating, but these rites have more to do with what color robes to wear on what day or whether the offering should be taken before or after the sermon than about any real division.

Source?

Thanks.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Do you know why Primitive Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, etc. are separate denominations?

They are are different conferences of Baptists. The conferences, like the SBC formed for the purpose of pooling rsources to send out missionaries. Between the conferences, there are differenct things emphasized. American Baptists focus more on home missions. SBC ties to do both.
Basic beliefs are the same though. and as Baptists see each church as autonomous, I don't see the that there is any issue. God uses ALL Christians.

I really think the number of denominations seem to concern certain groups, like the Catholic church, however, I just see it as that many more who are active in spreding the gospel. I see the church as being made up of believers from all denoms.

 

[racer]

very fascinating. I'd be interested in reading a RC rebuttal to it if there is one.

There is a rebuttal. Visit www.NTRMin.org. The source cited in the referenced article is the same source that Catholics are using when they make the 30,000 Protestant Denomination claims. However, Catholics are making this claim less and less as they become more acquainted with the source they've been giving credence to.

 

[Monica02]

Fascinating, but these rites have more to do with what color robes to wear on what day or whether the offering should be taken before or after the sermon than about any real division.

Yep- different liturgies. Also, I think the Eastern rites confirm babies. All are in full communion with the Vatican. The Catechism of the Catholic Church applies to all rites. All Catholics may attend all of the rite's services and still fulfill their Sunday obligation.

If anyone is interested in more information get on the Q/A forum at the EWTN website. I think they have a forum on this. Sorry-I am not computer smart enough to link. Also the Catholic Encyclopedia might have info.

Thanks to everyone who tried to answer my questions.

 

[SumTinWong]

here isanother source that might help
http://www.catholic.com

 

[Diane_Windsor]

racer,

I don't think that the second article had an RC rebuttel. Did I miss it?

Diane

 

[SumTinWong]

Here Diane:
http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Here Diane:
http://www.ntrmin.org/30000denominationsrevisited.htm

That is the article that I am talking about. This article linked above doesn't have a RC rebuttal correct?

diane

 

[Crazy Liz]

Source?

Thanks.

What I said was a rather loose analogy, but the differences seem to be of a similar degree of significance. See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13064b.htm.

Edit: Here are two more links that might help:
1) A lot like the Catholic Encyclopedia article, but more concise.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
2) The official Vatican statement on the Eastern rites
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

Thanks to the friends who found these for me.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Yep- different liturgies. Also, I think the Eastern rites confirm babies.

And also use raised bread for the Eucharist and have married priests, right?

 

[Crazy Liz]

They are are different conferences of Baptists. The conferences, like the SBC formed for the purpose of pooling rsources to send out missionaries. Between the conferences, there are differenct things emphasized. American Baptists focus more on home missions. SBC ties to do both.
Basic beliefs are the same though. and as Baptists see each church as autonomous, I don't see the that there is any issue. God uses ALL Christians.

I really think the number of denominations seem to concern certain groups, like the Catholic church, however, I just see it as that many more who are active in spreding the gospel. I see the church as being made up of believers from all denoms.

I don't want to foment division. Actually, I think today this is becoming more and more true, but we have to admit that historically, denominational splits among protestants have usually happened because of a difference in belief one group was so important that they could no longer fellowship with anyone who disagreed. I think the point of the 30,000/8,000 denominations argument is that protestants tend to have difficulty deciding which issues are important enough to break fellowship, and tend to err on the side of excessive schism.

As far as I can see, this is a fact, and we should acknowledge and confess it, rather than quibble about the numbers used to illustrate the argument.

 

[Monica02]

And also use raised bread for the Eucharist and have married priests, right?

Yes on the bread. Clarification on the married priests. I am no expert, so you migh want to double check somewhere. They will ordain married men, however a man may not get married once he is ordained. I know married priests cannot become bishops in the Orthodox Church so I am assuming that Eastern rite Catholic priests cannot either. A bit of trivia for you. I think an Armenian rite bishop was almost elected pope in the 50's or 60's.

 

[Carrye]

Yes on the bread. Clarification on the married priests. I am no expert, so you migh want to double check somewhere. They will ordain married men, however a man may not get married once he is ordained. I know married priests cannot become bishops in the Orthodox Church so I am assuming that Eastern rite Catholic priests cannot either.

Eastern rite priests can be married ... sometimes, though it depends on the rite and the location.

If an unmarried man is ordained, he can never marry. These will be the priests who can also become bishop. As Monica said, no married priests are ordained bishops.

A friend of mine is a priest in one of these Eastern rites, and priests in his rite in the United States hold to the decision of the USCCB, that priests are to be celibate. However, priests in his rite in another country (Iraq) follow the protocol outlined above.