30,000 denominations Argument

[SumTinWong]

For a year know I have heard this whole thing about how protestants have created 30,000 different denominations which has seperated the body of Christ. 30,000? How can that be? Name all the divisions here: Non-denom, Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Anabaptist, Methodist, Nazerene, Lutheran, Anglican, etc... Okay that might seem like a alot, but it is far short of 30,000.

Here is a great article explaining how these figures were made and hopefully you can be prepared to destroy the myth of 30,000 denominations once and for all.

Also here is the article revisited.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Thanks Bud I've been to that website many times, and it's a great site.

 

[aReformedPatriot]

very fascinating. I'd be interested in reading a RC rebuttal to it if there is one.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Thanks! That is a keeper!

I put in a file with another one:
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2489

in regards to the false claim that chiliasm (premillennialism) was declared a heresy.

 

[Thursday]

Im Catholic and I do not have a rebuttal to those statistics. The guy's definition of a "denomination" is pretty flawed. He says there are something like 14 "denominations" in the Catholic Church! .
Going by that definition of a denomination, I do not think you will find a Catholic who will agree with that and/or these statistics.

 

[Monica02]

I started a thread on OBOB, but I thought I would ask here. A linked article stated that the Southern Baptist Convention was divided on some doctrinal issues such as female ordination. Would Baptists consider these divisions to be seperate denominations?

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Im Catholic and I do not have a rebuttal to those statistics. The guy's definition of a "denomination" is pretty flawed. He says there are something like 14 "denominations" in the Catholic Church! .
Going by that definition of a denomination, I do not think you will find a Catholic who will agree with that and/or these statistics.

No doubt you would consider these people schismatics. I dont think the definition is flawed but rather that we are looking at it from 2 different angles. Your looking from the inside out and me from the outside in. What these results tell me is that every assembly has its own set of problems. Predominatly I think he made trash of the 30k propaganda nicely.

 

[Crazy Liz]

What difference does it make whether there are 30,000 or only 8,000?

 

[Crazy Liz]

...not to mention the fact that a lot of the Baptists here claim not to be protestant!

 

[aReformedPatriot]

...not to mention the fact that a lot of the Baptists here claim not to be protestant!

malarky. Not this baptist.

 

[FreeinChrist]

For a year know I have heard this whole thing about how protestants have created 30,000 different denominations which has seperated the body of Christ. 30,000? How can that be? Name all the divisions here: Non-denom, Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Anabaptist, Methodist, Nazerene, Lutheran, Anglican, etc... Okay that might seem like a alot, but it is far short of 30,000.

Here is a great article explaining how these figures were made and hopefully you can be prepared to destroy the myth of 30,000 denominations once and for all.

Also here is the article revisited.

well, I am wondering how long it will be till this thread is removed, too.

 

[Thursday]

No doubt you would consider these people schismatics. I dont think the definition is flawed but rather that we are looking at it from 2 different angles. Your looking from the inside out and me from the outside in. What these results tell me is that every assembly has its own set of problems. Predominatly I think he made trash of the 30k propaganda nicely.

Actually, no, we don't consider them schismatics. In the Catholic Church there are different rites. Which basically means same beliefs, all under the pope, but different ways they celebrate Mass, different "lowercase 't'" traditions, etc. The Latin Rite is the biggest rite, especially in western Europe and the Americas. I think most Catholics on this forum are Latin Rite. But there are other rites, the Melkites and Marionites for example. They are by no means schismatic, but this guy called them a different denomination!

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Going by that definition of a denomination, I do not think you will find a Catholic who will agree with that and/or these statistics.

You'd be surprised to see how many Roman Catholics use that stat-especially on a certain popular apologetics board. /rolleyes

What difference does it make whether there are 30,000 or only 8,000?

It's not the number itself that bothers me, it is the attitude of Roman Catholic apologists. Many RC apologists just throw out the number to take a dig at Protestantism when the same source (David A. Barrett) says that there are 223 Catholic "denominations" as well. How conveinent that the RC apologist does not cite that number. I think that I can speak for several Protestants when I say that we get really tired of people throwing propaganda at us, and when a RC apologist does throw the 30,000 number at us then they lose all credibility. Eric Svendsen does a terrific job in both articles. RC apologists really do compare apples to oranges.

I started a thread on OBOB, but I thought I would ask here. A linked article stated that the Southern Baptist Convention was divided on some doctrinal issues such as female ordination. Would Baptists consider these divisions to be seperate denominations?

Such as the Baptist General Convention of Texas and the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention??? I wouldn't consider them two separate denominations. They are all "Southern Baptists" in my eyes, though last time I checked they are still at war against one another over the direction of the SBC. Sad isn't it?

 

[aReformedPatriot]

Actually, no, we don't consider them schismatics. In the Catholic Church there are different rites. Which basically means same beliefs, all under the pope, but different ways they celebrate Mass, different "lowercase 't'" traditions, etc. The Latin Rite is the biggest rite, especially in western Europe and the Americas. I think most Catholics on this forum are Latin Rite. But there are other rites, the Melkites and Marionites for example. They are by no means schismatic, but this guy called them a different denomination!

Oh, so by the same standards the differing "rites" of protestantism are classified multiple denominations? Do not the majority have 'basically the same beliefs' thus making the author of the article correct?

 

[Monica02]

Such as the Baptist General Convention of Texas and the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention??? I wouldn't consider them two separate denominations. They are all "Southern Baptists" in my eyes, though last time I checked they are still at war against one another over the direction of the SBC. Sad isn't it?

Yes, very sad.
Okay, so you do not consider female ordination to be divisive enough to label a community as a seperate denomination. What points of doctrine or practice would you consider divisive enough to create another denomination? Thank you so much. I am trying to understand what people of different faiths consider "denominations".

 

[SumTinWong]

Here in New York we have a great many American Baptist churches. Under that umbrella we have churches that are liberal and churches that are conservative. One of the pastors who is an American Baptist Pastor is Peter J. Gomes who is a very out in the open gay man. On the other hand you have a church like mine that is very conservative and yet we are under the same denomination.

We are not a seperate denomination and yet we believe quite differently on some very key subjects. By the way the American Baptist church also has women pastors. I don't know if I buy into it, but they are here.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

What points of doctrine or practice would you consider divisive enough to create another denomination? Thank you so much. I am trying to understand what people of different faiths consider "denominations".

I'm trying to figure out the best way to word how I see things. So far I've come up with "Groups" and "Denominations". "Groups" are broad categories that include different "Denominations".

Group 1-Baptists

Denoms within this group would be Primitive Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, etc.

Group 2-Presbyterians

Denoms within this group include PUSA, PCA, etc.

Group 3-Lutherans

Denoms within this group include ELCA and other Lutheran bodies.

Group 4-Anglicans

Denoms within this group include church bodies in communion with Canterbury or independent church bodies, etc.

And so on and so forth.

The "Groups" are very different from the other "Groups", but the denominations within each group are very similar-the American Baptists are not that much different from the Southern Baptists, etc. Both denoms are classified as Baptist. Denominations are very narrowly defined while the Groups are broad.

Diane

 

[Crazy Liz]

I'm trying to figure out the best way to word how I see things. So far I've come up with "Groups" and "Denominations". "Groups" are broad categories that include different "Denominations".

Group 1-Baptists

Denoms within this group would be Primitive Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, etc.

[snip]

The "Groups" are very different from the other "Groups", but the denominations within each group are very similar-the American Baptists are not that much different from the Southern Baptists, etc. Both denoms are classified as Baptist. Denominations are very narrowly defined while the Groups are broad.

Diane

Do you know why Primitive Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, etc. are separate denominations?

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Do you know why Primitive Baptists, Southern Baptists, American Baptists, etc. are separate denominations?

I only know about the denom that I was raised in-the SBC, and I know that there are several reasons for the various Baptists denominations in existence today. In my eyes, "Baptists" are simply those who believe in "believers' baptism" and that the method should be immersion (and I get this from the Encyclopedia Britannia). Why they are so many separate Baptist denoms does not concern me.

Edited to Add:

The "Groups" are very different from the other "Groups", but the denominations within each group are very similar-the American Baptists are not that much different from the Southern Baptists, etc. Both denoms are classified as Baptist. Denominations are very narrowly defined while the Groups are broad.

I think I know why you asked your question, so let me clarify my above statement. When I say that the "American Baptists are not much different from the Southern Baptists" I am focusing on their distinct Baptist theology (believer's baptism, immersion only). IOW, in my eyes all Baptists are very similar because they believe in "believers' baptism" and baptism by immersion. Those beliefs distinguish them from other "Groups". Southern Baptists are against female pastors while other Baptist groups are for female pastors, but they still believe in the two Baptist distinctives, which makes them similar in my eyes. The same with Presbyterians and their distinct beliefs, and with Lutherans and their distinct beliefs, and so on.

I hope that clears things up a little.

Diane

 

[aReformedPatriot]

I only know about the denom that I was raised in-the SBC, and I know that there are several reasons for the various Baptists denominations in existence today. In my eyes, "Baptists" are simply those who believe in "believers' baptism" and that the method should be immersion (and I get this from the Encyclopedia Britannia). Why they are so many separate Baptist denoms does not concern me.

Diane

I like it.