3 Questions

[ScottA]

I have asked these questions on other threads, but didn't receive any answers. So, I started this thread to get other's ideas concerning these questions. Thanks.

1. According to Calvinistic thought, does predestination exist?

2. According to Calvinistic thought, did God predestine everything?

3. According to Calvinistic thought, does God's predestination change?

It would appear that the whole "Calvinistic" thing attached to your questions has gotten in the way of getting to the questions.

So...disregarding the "Calvinistic" part:

1. Predestination is putting it mildly. Predestination is a term that gives perspective to those who dwell within the non-reality of time. For example: If you asked, What happens to Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz? The answer would be: She wakes up (if I recall). But if your question came half way through the book, then the answer would be: I don't know, I need to finish the book. Of course, the book is finished before you finish...and so the idea that Dorothy was predestine to wake up, is only known to the author and those who have already finished. Likewise...time and the destiny of we characters in the story of life in the world, was simply "created" by a timeless Author...to give His timeless tale...a story line.
2. Same answer.
3. Read the rest of the book.

 

[OzSpen]

Then certainly you can provide a photo of what a predestination looks like, since you claim it is a "thing". Is it tall, short, thin, or fat? What color is it? How long does it last?

So is the Equator a thing?

(image courtesy commons.wikimedia.org)

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I have asked these questions on other threads, but didn't receive any answers. So, I started this thread to get other's ideas concerning these questions. Thanks.

1. According to Calvinistic thought, does predestination exist?

2. According to Calvinistic thought, did God predestine everything?

3. According to Calvinistic thought, does God's predestination change?

EmSw,

Don't overlook the fact that Arminius believed in predestination, but not of the supralapsarian kind. See his article, 'On Predestination'.

Oz

 

[nobdysfool]

So is the Equator a thing?

(image courtesy commons.wikimedia.org)

Oz

Technically, it is a place. It has no existence apart from the agreement of men that it describes a place on the globe equidistant between the two poles, and also corresponding more or less to the largest circumference of the Earth. It is in that sense that it exists,

Predestination is more correctly a theological concept. It has no separate existence apart from theological discussion. there is no physical existence that is, or can be identified as, "THAT is predestination, right over there".

 

[EmSw]

I never claimed that predestination exists as a "thing". That was YOUR doing.

Does it then exist as a person or place?

Obviously you think it does, or you wouldn't waste so much time trying to disprove it.

This statement makes no sense at all.

No one ever said you couldn't. But you must also own the results of those choices.

I am responsible for every choice I freely make, but not for the ones I've been predestined to do.

I could provide them, but there is the principle of pearls to consider

I don't believe you can provide them.

Not playing a victim, making a cogent observation. Patmos' little cartoon is more of the same. You have no interest in actually discussing the subject, you just want to play games, and have a laugh at our expense.

Maybe God should let you judge mankind; you seem to know everyone's heart.

The laugh will be upon you at the judgment.

If this is the way things are going to go, I have nothing further to say to you.

How do you know what will happen at the judgment?

Seems to me
You don't want to talk about it
Seems to me
You just turn your pretty head and walk away

 

[EmSw]

EmSw,

Don't overlook the fact that Arminius believed in predestination, but not of the supralapsarian kind. See his article, 'On Predestination'.

Oz

I think I've shown it's the predestination Calvinists believe.

 

[EmSw]

Technically, it is a place. It has no existence apart from the agreement of men that it describes a place on the globe equidistant between the two poles, and also corresponding more or less to the largest circumference of the Earth. It is in that sense that it exists,

Predestination is more correctly a theological concept. It has no separate existence apart from theological discussion. there is no physical existence that is, or can be identified as, "THAT is predestination, right over there".

Is a concept a thing?

So, predestination has no existence apart from theological discussion. Maybe we should quit talking about it, then it wouldn't exist.

 

[OzSpen]

Predestination is more correctly a theological concept. It has no separate existence apart from theological discussion. there is no physical existence that is, or can be identified as, "THAT is predestination, right over there".

Brother, predestination is not a 'theological concept' for 'theological discussion'. It is the action of God (see Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:5, 11) by which, in redemption, he elected to save those who accept Jesus and the salvation offered by God. In this, God foreordained to accomplish His purposes for salvation.

Another has put it this way,

Predestination (Gk prooizo) means “to decide beforehand” and applies to God’s purposes comprehended in election. Election is God’s choice “in Christ” of a people (the true church) for himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God’s people (all genuine believers in Christ).

(1) God predestines his elect to be: (a) called (Rom. 8:30); (b) justified (Ro 3:24, 8:30); (c) glorified (Ro 8:30); (d) conformed to the likeness of his Son (Ro 8:29); (e) holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); (f) adopted as God’s children (1:5); (g) redeemed (1:7); (h) recipients of an inheritance (1:14); (i) for the praise of his glory (Eph 1:2; 1 Pe 2:9); (j) recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14); and (k) created to do good works (Eph 2:10) ['A Concise Summary of the Corporate View of Election and Predestination', SoEA].

Therefore, predestination is clearly an action by God and not a 'theological concept' of no more importance than for 'theological discussion'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Technically, it is a place. It has no existence apart from the agreement of men that it describes a place on the globe equidistant between the two poles, and also corresponding more or less to the largest circumference of the Earth. It is in that sense that it exists,

Technically, the Equator is an imaginary line that runs around the earth (MacMillan Dictionary). It is a neuter noun, an 'it'.

 

[OzSpen]

Predestination is more correctly a theological concept. It has no separate existence apart from theological discussion. there is no physical existence that is, or can be identified as, "THAT is predestination, right over there".

Are you saying that predestination is something that God DOES NOT DO? Is it your view that God does not take action to predestine anyone or anything?

Oz

 

[nobdysfool]

Are you saying that predestination is something that God DOES NOT DO? Is it your view that God does not take action to predestine anyone or anything?

Oz

No that is NOT what I'm saying. God does predestine, or more correctly, predestined, a long time ago. He has predestined all that is or comes to pass. What made you think that I don't believe that? A very odd question.

 

[nobdysfool]

Does it then exist as a person or place?

I didn't say that. You seem to think that predestination has some sort of existence in and of itself.

This statement makes no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense because that's what you're doing.

I am responsible for every choice I freely make, but not for the ones I've been predestined to do.

God would disagree with you on that. You willingly did what you were predestined to do, because you did it. God didn't make you do it. But he knew you would.

I don't believe you can provide them.

You would believe wrongly then. Now who's dealing with thoughts and intents nof another's heart and mind?

Maybe God should let you judge mankind; you seem to know everyone's heart.

I can draw conclusions from what I see going on and being said. "Out of the abundance of the heart, man speaks"

How do you know what will happen at the judgment?

Do you think you're going to get a free pass on destructive doctrine?

Seems to me
You don't want to talk about it
Seems to me
You just turn your pretty head and walk away

Well there's one redeeming quality for you, you're a James Gang fan.

 

[nobdysfool]

Brother, predestination is not a 'theological concept' for 'theological discussion'. It is the action of God (see Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:5, 11) by which, in redemption, he elected to save those who accept Jesus and the salvation offered by God. In this, God foreordained to accomplish His purposes for salvation.

Another has put it this way,


Therefore, predestination is clearly an action by God and not a 'theological concept' of no more importance than for 'theological discussion'.

Oz

If you have been watching the exchange between me and EmSw, you would understand why I said what I said. Of course I know that predestination is an act of God! My point was to contrast it versus his ridiculous insistence that predestination has existence as a thing. Please, try to keep up, rather than tossing something tangential into the discussion.

 

[nobdysfool]

Technically, the Equator is an imaginary line that runs around the earth (MacMillan Dictionary). It is a neuter noun, an 'it'.

Yes, but does it have actual, objective existence? Is there literally a line running across the land masses at that point?

 

[nobdysfool]

I think I've shown it's the predestination Calvinists believe.

and you're not even getting that right....

 

[OzSpen]

No that is NOT what I'm saying. God does predestine, or more correctly, predestined, a long time ago. He has predestined all that is or comes to pass. What made you think that I don't believe that? A very odd question.

It is NOT an odd question, particularly based on what you stated in #24: 'Predestination is more correctly a theological concept. It has no separate existence apart from theological discussion'.

 

[OzSpen]

If you have been watching the exchange between me and EmSw, you would understand why I said what I said. Of course I know that predestination is an act of God! My point was to contrast it versus his ridiculous insistence that predestination has existence as a thing. Please, try to keep up, rather than tossing something tangential into the discussion.

It was not something tangental. It was based on what you said. I don't have to read ALL of your exchange with EmSW to be able to contribute.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, but does it have actual, objective existence? Is there literally a line running across the land masses at that point?

No! It is imaginary - an imaginary line. There is no literal line.

 

[nobdysfool]

It was not something tangental. It was based on what you said. I don't have to read ALL of your exchange with EmSW to be able to contribute.

My point is that you have made assumptions without warrant. It's not like we don't know each other. I cannot and will not post an entire exhaustive explanation of what I believe (and don't believe) every time I post anything. I was trying to counter EmSw's questions with points to keep the thread from getting derailed. Sorry I didn't meet your criteria in all ways. I do try to be clear. If I'm not, or you think I'm not, a private message would be a more appropriate way to address it, rather than seeming to gang up to try and make me look like a fool in an open thread.

 

[nobdysfool]

No! It is imaginary - an imaginary line. There is no literal line.

I know that! I was making a point! EmSw obviously thinks that predestination has some sort of objective physical existence. Or at least that's how his questions read to me. He is trying to lead things down rabbit trails, and then come back and claim that he has "defeated" this or that. I'm trying to focus. To do that, I try to nip false assumptions and statements in the bud, because of past experience. Seems to me that you tend to do so as well.