2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8 - correct timeline - wrong event.

[BobRyan]

vs 26 of Dan 9 - "The sanctuary is destroyed" has to be the earthly one that is destroyed in 70 AD after the messiah was cut off in the midst of the week. (Jesus was crucified in that last week of 7 years of the 490 year timeline prophecy).

in Dan 8 the sanctuary is not the earthly one - it is the one that Paul describes in Hebrews 8:1-5 which is the only one left at the time that the little horn persecuting the saints. Which is after the Christian church exists.

Notice that in Hebrews 8:1-6 Jesus is not the sanctuary in heaven - rather He is our High Priest IN the Sanctuary in heaven.

 

[sparow]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 69871962, member: 235244"]vs 26 of Dan 9 - "The sanctuary is destroyed" has to be the earthly one that is destroyed in 70 AD after the messiah was cut off in the midst of the week. (Jesus was crucified in that last week of 7 years of the 490 year timeline prophecy).

in Dan 8 the sanctuary is not the earthly one - it is the one that Paul describes in Hebrews 8:1-5 which is the only one left at the time that the little horn persecuting the saints. Which is after the Christian church exists.

Notice that in Hebrews 8:1-6 Jesus is not the sanctuary in heaven - rather He is our High Priest IN the Sanctuary in heaven.[/QUOTE]

You are not talking SDA teaching. The seventieth week was around 32-39 AD. The seventieth week was the messiah's week; 70AD was to do with the Jews who were cut off, the Assyrians as Roman legions and Rome. The messiah was cut off in the middle of the seventieth week, but cut off from what; the messiah was cut off from certain people who no longer had access; the Gospel "repent and make the way straight", expired at the crucifixion; Christ, now the daily sacrifice was no longer for them; for them the sanctuary ceased to exist; you think the temple was the sanctuary but the temple was where the sanctuary was; and while the temple is semantically called the sanctuary a sanctuary is a place where somebody keeps someone safe from something and the way God keeps Israel safe is by His covenant and so in the sanctuary is the ark of the covenant.

A SDA teaching is concerning the seventy weeks and beyond, Daniel goes back to the starting point and over the same time period about four times skipping over what he has previously said and adding more and these have to be overlaid to see the full picture. the seventy weeks to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple is the same seventy weeks Israel was given to make the way straight.

The treading the second temple under foot before it was destroyed serves as a type for the anti-type of the Papacy treading the sanctuary underfoot for 1260 years; 1260 years is also the time between the Muslim shrine in the temple mount and the six day war; so there is a literal fulfilment and a spiritual fulfilment co existing.

 

[BobRyan]

vs 26 of Dan 9 - "The sanctuary is destroyed" has to be the earthly one that is destroyed in 70 AD after the messiah was cut off in the midst of the week. (Jesus was crucified in that last week of 7 years of the 490 year timeline prophecy).

in Dan 8 the sanctuary is not the earthly one - it is the one that Paul describes in Hebrews 8:1-5 which is the only one left at the time that the little horn persecuting the saints. Which is after the Christian church exists.

Notice that in Hebrews 8:1-6 Jesus is not the sanctuary in heaven - rather He is our High Priest IN the Sanctuary in heaven.

You are not talking SDA teaching.

Huh???

Why in the world would you say that??

The seventieth week was around 32-39 AD. The seventieth week was the messiah's week; 70AD was to do with the Jews who were cut off, the Assyrians as Roman legions and Rome.

Not true at all.

Daniel 9 does not say that the Jews would be cut off within those 70 weeks (490 years) -- Rather it is a timeline pointing to the annointing of Christ at His baptism by the Holy Spirit -- 27 A.D. This is in fact - in perfect agreement with SDA teaching that the 70th week starts in 27 A.D. and ends in 24 A.D. (edit: I mean 34 A.D.) with the stoning of Stephen. In the midst of that week (of that last 7 literal years in the 490 year timeline) - Christ is cut off. The Messiah the prince is cut off. Is crucified.

The messiah was cut off in the middle of the seventieth week

True - he was crucified. This text points to the start of Christ's ministry and to the great work of Christ on the cross accomplishing the work of redemption for mankind.

This has nothing at all to do with the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the Christians -- as noted in Daniel 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13.

 

[DarylFawcett]

and ends in 24 A.D.

I think you intended to say that it "ends in 34 A.D."

 

[sparow]

Why in the world would you say that??

"vs 26 of Dan 9 - "The sanctuary is destroyed" has to be the earthly one that is destroyed in 70 AD after the messiah was cut off in the midst of the week. (Jesus was crucified in that last week of 7 years of the 490 year timeline prophecy)."

It seems I misunderstood and thought you were saying the messiah was cut of in 70AD.


"Daniel 9 does not say that the Jews would be cut off within those 70 weeks (490 years) -- Rather it is a timeline pointing to the annointing of Christ at His baptism by the Holy Spirit -- 27 A.D. This is in fact - in perfect agreement with SDA teaching that the 70th week starts in 27 A.D. and ends in 24 A.D. with the stoning of Stephen. In the midst of that week (of that last 7 literal years in the 490 year timeline) - Christ is cut off. The Messiah the prince is cut off. Is crucified."

I agree the SDA teaches this; but you imply cut off means crucified.
I have been discussing two points, what does it mean to tread the sanctuary underfoot; what exactly is trodden underfoot? And what is cut off?

It is my understanding that when the temple was destroyed in 70AD it was not the sanctuary and had not been the sanctuary since the crucifixion because God no longer dwelt there.

I don't see that Hebrews 8:1-5 has any bearing on what is trodden underfoot; what is trodden underfoot is God, and his covenant of which Christ's crucifixion was an integral part.

In the middle of the seventieth week what was Christ cut off from? First He was cut off from completing confirming the covenant half way through with three and a half years to go; the key to his question is the word Messiah, the Messiah is cut off, the Jews have no messiah and wont have until the say, "Blessed is He wo comes in the name of the Lord". Jesus won't be the Messiah until the covenant is fully confirmed or complete.

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 9 does not say that the Jews would be cut off within those 70 weeks (490 years) -- Rather it is a timeline pointing to the annointing of Christ at His baptism by the Holy Spirit -- 27 A.D. This is in fact - in perfect agreement with SDA teaching that the 70th week starts in 27 A.D. and ends in 24 A.D. with the stoning of Stephen. In the midst of that week (of that last 7 literal years in the 490 year timeline) - Christ is cut off. The Messiah the prince is cut off. Is crucified.

I think you intended to say that it "ends in 34 A.D."

Indeed! - going from 27 to 24 A.D. would be the big "rewind" or a typo. so then .. typo it is.

Daniel 9 does not say that the Jews would be cut off within those 70 weeks (490 years) -- Rather it is a timeline pointing to the annointing of Christ at His baptism by the Holy Spirit -- 27 A.D. This is in fact - in perfect agreement with SDA teaching that the 70th week starts in 27 A.D. and ends in 34 A.D. with the stoning of Stephen. In the midst of that week (of that last 7 literal years in the 490 year timeline) - Christ is cut off. The Messiah the prince is cut off. Is crucified.

And thank you for catching that!

 

[BobRyan]

vs 26 of Dan 9 - "The sanctuary is destroyed" has to be the earthly one that is destroyed in 70 AD after the messiah was cut off in the midst of the week. (Jesus was crucified in that last week of 7 years of the 490 year timeline prophecy).

in Dan 8 the sanctuary is not the earthly one - it is the one that Paul describes in Hebrews 8:1-5 which is the only one left at the time that the little horn persecuting the saints. Which is after the Christian church exists.

Notice that in Hebrews 8:1-6 Jesus is not the sanctuary in heaven - rather He is our High Priest IN the Sanctuary in heaven.

You are not talking SDA teaching.

Huh???

Why in the world would you say that??
[/quote]

It seems I misunderstood and thought you were saying the messiah was cut of in 70AD.

ok - well that it explains it then. -- He was cut off in the midst of that last 7 year segment of the 490 years.

Daniel 9 does not say that the Jews would be cut off within those 70 weeks (490 years) -- Rather it is a timeline pointing to the annointing of Christ at His baptism by the Holy Spirit -- 27 A.D. This is in fact - in perfect agreement with SDA teaching that the 70th week starts in 27 A.D. and ends in 24 A.D. (edit: I mean 34 A.D.) with the stoning of Stephen. In the midst of that week (of that last 7 literal years in the 490 year timeline) - Christ is cut off. The Messiah the prince is cut off. Is crucified.

The messiah was cut off in the middle of the seventieth week

True - he was crucified. This text points to the start of Christ's ministry and to the great work of Christ on the cross accomplishing the work of redemption for mankind.

This has nothing at all to do with the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the Christians -- as noted in Daniel 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13.

I agree the SDA teaches this; but you imply cut off means crucified.
I have been discussing two points, what does it mean to tread the sanctuary underfoot; what exactly is trodden underfoot? And what is cut off?

In Daniel 9 - there no trodding under foot.

As for "Cut off"

In the OT it meant either exile or stoning/execution of some form.

It is my understanding that when the temple was destroyed in 70AD it was not the sanctuary and had not been the sanctuary since the crucifixion because God no longer dwelt there.

you are switching to Daniel 8 which refers to events between 457B.C. and 1844.

the 2300 year period in the vision starts with Medo-Persia in its dominate empire period of time. And it ends with the "Time of the end" for the world.

Dan 8
17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. 20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

We know that at the end of the vision timeline (1844) the sanctuary in heaven enters the day of atonement phase -- and we know that prior to that time there is the sanctuary is trodden under foot.

In Hebrews 8:1-5 we are told that beginning in Ad 34 at the ascension of Christ - He was our High Priest and his work began in the heavenly sanctuary.

A power would arise after his Ascension that would usurp the role of Christ "The vicar of the Son of God" - an earthly priesthood that stood in the place of Christ.

Just as in Rev 11 the "two witnesses" (the OT and NT) are killed for ten years - during the French Revolution at the end of the 1260 years of dark ages persecution/tribulation of the saints.

 

[sparow]

Huh???

Why in the world would you say that??

ok - well that it explains it then. -- He was cut off in the midst of that last 7 year segment of the 490 years.

In Daniel 9 - there no trodding under foot.

As for "Cut off"

In the OT it meant either exile or stoning/execution of some form.

you are switching to Daniel 8 which refers to events between 457B.C. and 1844.

the 2300 year period in the vision starts with Medo-Persia in its dominate empire period of time. And it ends with the "Time of the end" for the world.

Dan 8
17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. 20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

We know that at the end of the vision timeline (1844) the sanctuary in heaven enters the day of atonement phase -- and we know that prior to that time there is the sanctuary is trodden under foot.

In Hebrews 8:1-5 we are told that beginning in Ad 34 at the ascension of Christ - He was our High Priest and his work began in the heavenly sanctuary.

A power would arise after his Ascension that would usurp the role of Christ "The vicar of the Son of God" - an earthly priesthood that stood in the place of Christ.

Just as in Rev 11 the "two witnesses" (the OT and NT) are killed for ten years - during the French Revolution at the end of the 1260 years of dark ages persecution/tribulation of the saints.

While I can see error in what you say, I don't know what we are debating. 1844 is doctrine of men that the SDA believes; I am not able to make use if it. I believe the sanctuary has been trodden underfoot for 2000 years and is continuing until Christ returns; in less than 300 years.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

S

While I can see error in what you say, I don't know what we are debating. 1844 is doctrine of men that the SDA believes; I am not able to make use if it. I believe the sanctuary has been trodden underfoot for 2000 years and is continuing until Christ returns; in less than 300 years.

So what has Christ been doing as our High Priest and where has He been doing it for the last 2000 years?

 

[Dave-W]

So what has Christ been doing as our High Priest and where has He been doing it for the last 2000 years?

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Psalm 110:1 The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Ephesians 1:20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

That covers the "has been doing" part.

As to the "last 2000 years" part, how do you know that HIS time frame is the same as ours? Maybe it has only been 2 days......

2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

 

[BobRyan]

vs 26 of Dan 9 - "The sanctuary is destroyed" has to be the earthly one that is destroyed in 70 AD after the messiah was cut off in the midst of the week. (Jesus was crucified in that last week of 7 years of the 490 year timeline prophecy).

in Dan 8 the sanctuary is not the earthly one - it is the one that Paul describes in Hebrews 8:1-5 which is the only one left at the time that the little horn persecuting the saints. Which is after the Christian church exists.

Notice that in Hebrews 8:1-6 Jesus is not the sanctuary in heaven - rather He is our High Priest IN the Sanctuary in heaven.

You are not talking SDA teaching.

Huh???

Why in the world would you say that??
[/quote]

It seems I misunderstood and thought you were saying the messiah was cut of in 70AD.

ok - well that it explains it then. -- He was cut off in the midst of that last 7 year segment of the 490 years.

Daniel 9 does not say that the Jews would be cut off within those 70 weeks (490 years) -- Rather it is a timeline pointing to the annointing of Christ at His baptism by the Holy Spirit -- 27 A.D. This is in fact - in perfect agreement with SDA teaching that the 70th week starts in 27 A.D. and ends in 24 A.D. (edit: I mean 34 A.D.) with the stoning of Stephen. In the midst of that week (of that last 7 literal years in the 490 year timeline) - Christ is cut off. The Messiah the prince is cut off. Is crucified.

The messiah was cut off in the middle of the seventieth week

True - he was crucified. This text points to the start of Christ's ministry and to the great work of Christ on the cross accomplishing the work of redemption for mankind.

This has nothing at all to do with the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the Christians -- as noted in Daniel 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13.

I agree the SDA teaches this; but you imply cut off means crucified.
I have been discussing two points, what does it mean to tread the sanctuary underfoot; what exactly is trodden underfoot? And what is cut off?

In Daniel 9 - there no trodding under foot.

As for "Cut off"

In the OT it meant either exile or stoning/execution of some form.

It is my understanding that when the temple was destroyed in 70AD it was not the sanctuary and had not been the sanctuary since the crucifixion because God no longer dwelt there.

you are switching to Daniel 8 which refers to events between 457B.C. and 1844.

the 2300 year period in the vision starts with Medo-Persia in its dominate empire period of time. And it ends with the "Time of the end" for the world.

Dan 8
17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. 20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

We know that at the end of the vision timeline (1844) the sanctuary in heaven enters the day of atonement phase -- and we know that prior to that time there is the sanctuary is trodden under foot.

In Hebrews 8:1-5 we are told that beginning in Ad 34 at the ascension of Christ - He was our High Priest and his work began in the heavenly sanctuary.

A power would arise after his Ascension that would usurp the role of Christ "The vicar of the Son of God" - an earthly priesthood that stood in the place of Christ.

Just as in Rev 11 the "two witnesses" (the OT and NT) are killed for ten years - during the French Revolution at the end of the 1260 years of dark ages persecution/tribulation of the saints.

While I can see error in what you say, I don't know what we are debating.

Those two statements appear self-conflicted.

Pick one.

1844 is doctrine of men

Until you look at the texts given in Daniel 8 and 9 where both the 490 years pointing to Christ's ministry in A.D. 27 at his baptism and also the 2300 years that start at the same time as the 490 years - ending in 1844.

nothing in Dan 9 speaks about the sanctuary trodden under foot.

and Dan 8:13-19 tells us that the vision with timeline starting in 457 B.C. according to Daniel 9 ... ends in 1844 and the end times. At which point the sanctuary (and there is no earthly one at that time) enters the Day of Atonement cleansing and final judgment period of time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Doesn't a priest that is making intercession, based on the earthly type, need a sanctuary/alter?

Hebrews 6:19-20
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Revelation 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant...

 

[Dave-W]

Doesn't a priest that is making intercession, based on the earthly type, need a sanctuary/alter?

Hebrews 6:19-20
We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Revelation 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant...

For atonement - yes. And your verses covered that.

Messiah presented his own blood on the mercy seat of the heavenly sanctuary. But that only takes an hour or 2.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

For atonement - yes. And your verses covered that.

Messiah presented his own blood on the mercy seat of the heavenly sanctuary. But that only takes an hour or 2.

So Jesus isn't making intercession for us, offering up our prayers mixed with the fragrance of His righteousness as the earthly priests used to? How do we come to Father if not through our High Priest?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Also, when Jesus comes and has His reward with Him for the faithful, when does this work of atonement take place? Does there not need to be a complete fulfillment of the earthly service?

 

[sparow]

S

So what has Christ been doing as our High Priest and where has He been doing it for the last 2000 years?

I suspect the scriptures say some things; He is preparing a place for us; but I don't take the scriptures literally and I don't take the epistles as scripture. My view is that the High Priest's duties in the OT are the type and Jesus' duties are the anti-type; but not only is Jesus the High Priest He is also the sacrifice and also the God to whom the sacrifice is made. Not only is there type/anti-type there is also a shift from carnal to spiritual. Jesus dwells in each of us and our bodies are temples to Him so His sanctuary is in us and His priestly duties are done in us.


We as priests also have priestly duties; baptism is one of our priestly duties, regardless of what Paul may say.

 

[sparow]

Huh???

Why in the world would you say that??

ok - well that it explains it then. -- He was cut off in the midst of that last 7 year segment of the 490 years.

In Daniel 9 - there no trodding under foot.

As for "Cut off"

In the OT it meant either exile or stoning/execution of some form.



you are switching to Daniel 8 which refers to events between 457B.C. and 1844.

the 2300 year period in the vision starts with Medo-Persia in its dominate empire period of time. And it ends with the "Time of the end" for the world.

Dan 8
17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. 20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

We know that at the end of the vision timeline (1844) the sanctuary in heaven enters the day of atonement phase -- and we know that prior to that time there is the sanctuary is trodden under foot.

In Hebrews 8:1-5 we are told that beginning in Ad 34 at the ascension of Christ - He was our High Priest and his work began in the heavenly sanctuary.

A power would arise after his Ascension that would usurp the role of Christ "The vicar of the Son of God" - an earthly priesthood that stood in the place of Christ.

Just as in Rev 11 the "two witnesses" (the OT and NT) are killed for ten years - during the French Revolution at the end of the 1260 years of dark ages persecution/tribulation of the saints.



Those two statements appear self-conflicted.

Pick one.





Until you look at the texts given in Daniel 8 and 9 where both the 490 years pointing to Christ's ministry in A.D. 27 at his baptism and also the 2300 years that start at the same time as the 490 years - ending in 1844.

nothing in Dan 9 speaks about the sanctuary trodden under foot.

and Dan 8:13-19 tells us that the vision with timeline starting in 457 B.C. according to Daniel 9 ... ends in 1844 and the end times. At which point the sanctuary (and there is no earthly one at that time) enters the Day of Atonement cleansing and final judgment period of time.

in Christ,

Bob

We appear to be vainly repeating our selves; the Bible doesn't mention 1844 at all; only the SDA does; we should be more concerned about the present, our 90 years or so and contemporary prophesy.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I suspect the scriptures say some things; He is preparing a place for us; but I don't take the scriptures literally and I don't take the epistles as scripture. My view is that the High Priest's duties in the OT are the type and Jesus' duties are the anti-type; but not only is Jesus the High Priest He is also the sacrifice and also the God to whom the sacrifice is made. Not only is there type/anti-type there is also a shift from carnal to spiritual. Jesus dwells in each of us and our bodies are temples to Him so His sanctuary is in us and His priestly duties are done in us.


We as priests also have priestly duties; baptism is one of our priestly duties, regardless of what Paul may say.

Can't really continue to dialogue with you if you don't understand scripture as I do. I don't know by what authority you can disregard any of the Bible as not God's Word... your own, I guess.

Great video btw... if nothing else, continue to listen and embrace these present truth messages.

 

[Dave-W]

So Jesus isn't making intercession for us, offering up our prayers mixed with the fragrance of His righteousness as the earthly priests used to? How do we come to Father if not through our High Priest?

You are twisting what I said. Of course HE is making intercession.

In that particular post I was saying that part of what HE had to do as High Priest was to present the Yom Kippur sacrifice in the heavenly sanctuary. Hebrews says he did that "once for all time." That was accomplished almost 2000 years ago and is not repeated ever.

 

[sparow]

Can't really continue to dialogue with you if you don't understand scripture as I do. I don't know by what authority you can disregard any of the Bible as not God's Word... your own, I guess.

Great video btw... if nothing else, continue to listen and embrace these present truth messages.

I would assume that not understanding the scriptures the same way would be when dialogue was required. I ask you by what authority do you regard all of the Bible is the word of God; maybe the Church fathers, a Roman emperor?


The only time the KJV translators/interpreters used the word scripture in the OT was in Daniel where Daniel referred to the scripture of truth; any writing is technically scripture but Daniel was referring to specific writings; Christ commended the Pharisees for preserving the scriptures; when the Roman State Church, also called the Church Fathers, in the third century decided what would be included in scripture, were they not opposing Christ who had already determined what was scripture.


Up until 700AD the Hebrew scriptures had no vowels which meant the readers had to provide the vowels themselves and I have been told vowels change the meaning of the word; I don't know if that is true but if they did change the meaning of the word this would introduce permutations; if vowels could change the meaning in addition to controlling the phonetics and if varying vowels could cause an average word to have four different meanings, two words would allow 16 possible meanings 10 words would be 4 raised to the power of 40 and my maths are possibly wrong but for ten words the number of variations is 48 followed by 23 zeros. The Masoretic text was produced with vowels around 700AD and is one out of this enormous set of possibilities; I do not know who produced the Masoretic text, it may have been the Papacy one hundred years into its reign.


Suppose the vowels did not effect the meaning of the Hebrew text then 2 Peter 1:20-21 says, "The prophets of old did not make it up, they did not interpret it from scripture, they received understanding directly from God; as did Daniel. To understand what these prophets were inspired write works the same way, understanding does not come by believing it into existence, understanding does not come by interpretation, understanding comes directly from God. This is confirmed from when Jesus asked Peter, "Who am I?" and Peter said, "You are the Messiah," Christ replied, "My Father told you that, and understanding coming from my Father is the rock on which I will build my church".


Are Paul's epistles the word of God? No, if they were they would not start, "I am Paul," the would start, "I am Jehovah." Did God inspire the inclusion of Paul's epistles in the Bible? I don't know and I have thought about that a lot. I see Satan as the pied piper and Paul's epistles as the rat trap.


For me a door was closed on Paul 27 years ago and I reasoned that if Paul's epistles were not in the Bible it would not affect my chances for salvation at all. Later I became curious about what was wrong with Paul and I found that interpretations of scripture are a dime a dozen and are not useful to prove error so apart from receiving it directly from God is there anyway to determine Paul wasn't who He said he was; the only thing that I came up with was Paul is not an apparent fulfiller of prophesy as was Jesus an John the Baptist however by way of prophesy Jesus said He would not do anything without informing the apostles FIRST. If Paul was to prepare the ground work for the Gentiles to usurp the church, if Paul was to deliver the New covenant then the apostles would have been forewarned but acts shows this did not happen instead some insignificant had a dream after the fact of the encounter with the angel of light which was claimed to be Jesus.

You should understand I am not trying to lead you anywhere, seeing there is only one destination that a man can lead anyone and that is the ditch. The scriptures are means to an end and the end is harvestable fruit. The scriptures provide the means for an endless stream of understanding, institutionalised interpretation of scripture stifles the flow,