So you believe the 7th seal is nothingburger.
Yeah it really seems like you have to try and put a square peg through a round hole to fit your eschatology, rather than take a plain reading and realize that previous prophetic verses have been looking from such a distant perspective that they saw all the peaks on top of each other.
1990 years ago you would have been scoffing at people following Jesus because He hasn't fulfilled all the messianic prophecies at once.
A plain reading of each recap shows the end of each parallel to be the end.
except for when there's obvious continuity.
If you didn't have a prejudiced eschatology viewpoint when you read the 7th seal and then see seven trumpets you'd see a continuity, because you already have your mind set on what you believe going into it, you force a discontinuity in between verses... square peg, round hole.
I didn't come on my eschatology view with a preconceived notion. I read the bible, then came to a viewpoint based on that. Though every time I come across a detail it strengthens a pre wrath rapture viewpoint (like the 144,000 being introduced after the 6th seal, before the 7th, and simultaneously there's a great multitude before the throne of God that are those who came out of great tribulation, sounds like the elect were taken out, aside from the 144,000, in order for those 144,000 to preach the word of God during the wrath of God to give as many chances to convert as possible. It's really the only explanation for the purpose of the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses)
But because you came into revelation with a preconceived eschatology, you want to ignore, or abstract anything that disagrees with that viewpoint, where for me, Revelation clarified chronology and put events in different locations
Namely it seems like you have brushed off things like the 144,000, because they don't fit your viewpoint, so you pretend they don't exist in scripture and call them "symbols" or "spiritual" to handwave away your disbelief in scripture.
The present reality.
The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors! This Holy Spirit then asks a question: "who shall be able to stand?” This of course is a rhetorical question: meaning the answer is obvious. No one! This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
This is taken from Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”
This is total destruction - for those left behind. This is the end of the world and the wicked. The whole description indicates that the decaying heavens (outer space) we know now will be no more. The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when Jesus comes. Christ will be the eternal light on the new earth!
There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.
2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”
1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
Except that the bible itself follows up with events after the sixth seal, leading up to the 7th seal.
Revelation 7:1 "And after these things"
You still haven't told me a single word about the 144,000.
It's like you conveniently ignore them.
There is no problem with the text, it is you forcing a faulty meaning on it in order to support your questionable beliefs that is problematic. The last post remains unaddressed. Personal opinion does not cut it!
The present reality is that the world has continued in its ungodly way for nearly 2000 years. Will the Creator allow this situation forever?I agree. We are there now!
The present reality is that the world has continued in its ungodly way for nearly 2000 years. Will the Creator allow this situation forever?
The Prophetic Word does inform us of what He intends to do about it and by the way things are worldwide, but esp in the Middle East; that could happen quite soon.
Would you care to guess what the action will be that the Lord will take?
The present reality is that the world has continued in its ungodly way for nearly 2000 years. Will the Creator allow this situation forever?
The Prophetic Word does inform us of what He intends to do about it and by the way things are worldwide, but esp in the Middle East; that could happen quite soon.
Would you care to guess what the action will be that the Lord will take?
I have addressed it, several times.
I have spelled out out with a picture even.
But you have not said a single thing in regards to the 144,000. You have ignored it.
Except that the bible itself follows up with events after the sixth seal, leading up to the 7th seal.
Revelation 7:1 "And after these things"
You still haven't told me a single word about the 144,000.
It's like you conveniently ignore them.
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. .
My question was: What action do you think the Lord will take?We do not need to guess. When Jesus comes He brings it into wickedness and corruption. He introduces perfection and incorruption.
How could they be figurative? Figurative of what?Are the 144,000 literal or figurative?
How could they be figurative? Figurative of what?
No; they are real people, all born again believers, who have not defiled themselves by fornication.
The 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel is still symbolically representing the same elect remnant of Old Covenant faithful saints of chapter 7. The difference is that now after being sealed by the Spirit, they are seen in heaven, having the Father's name written in their foreheads. Which is what the sealing in Rev 7 pertains to. The vision of Rev 14 begins again from the beginning of the New Covenant Gospel age. The proof of this is found in vs 6 where the angel has the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. [/QUOTE
From vs 6 to the end of the chapter is what transpire on earth during this New Covenant Gospel age as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth. It is a great spiritual battle taking place that culminates with the harvest of the earth on the last day.
How could they be figurative? Figurative of what?
No; they are real people, all born again believers, who have not defiled themselves by fornication. They are chosen by Jesus, standing on Mt Zion in Jerusalem, Revelation 14:1-5, out of the vast multitude of all the Christian peoples gathered there. Revelation 7:9 Soon after the Sixth Seal, that will have cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land.
THEY go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus, proved by Isaiah 66:19.
Are the 144,000 literal or figurative?
It could be either. There is much symbolism in this passage.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Distance from fingers to elbow, estimated at 18 inches for a Biblical cubit
The 144,000 are the “firstfruits” (Revelation 14:4) of God redeemed among men, not the lastfruits as Premillers suggest. The 144,000 could likely be a symbolic representation of those Jews that came to the faith during the first century. These may be the Jews that began the spread of the Gospel, throughout Israel and then to the nations.
James 1:1-2, 18 seems to correlate with Revelation 14:3-4 in regard to these Jewish firstfruits, saying: “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. My brethren, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”
It is improper to move the 144,000 from their early-church venue and move them forward in time 2000+ years. If these were end-time tribulation saints then they would not be the first-fruit but the last-fruit. They must be redeemed Jews at the start of the great Gospel advance.
Matthew 10:5-7 records, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
We see the outworking of this in Matthew 15:22-28, there, “a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”
Jesus said in Luke 24:47: “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
Christ confirmed this in Acts 1:8: “ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Acts 13:46-47 declares, “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us (referring to Isa. 49:6), saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.”
Romans 1:16 agrees, “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”
Romans 2:9-10 also says, “Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile.”
If Revelation 4-19 truly reveals a seven-year tribulation period, and the 144,000 are the so-called Jewish evangelists for the entire tribulation period, what are they doing located (in total) around the throne in heaven in Revelation 14 singing “a new song before the throne”? Surely Revelation 15 – 19 has still to come within its supposed 7-year-tribulation-period.
This is not a command from the angel, but a command from God the Father to the Son. The angel is simply indorsing the fulfilment of that plan. This correlates with other Scripture where Christ is subordinate to His Father’s plan and with Him fulfilling everything required of Him.
- they have "the seal of the living God" Rev 7:2
- they are "the servants of our God" Rev 7:3
- they have the "Father's name written in their foreheads" Rev 14:1
- they "sung as it were a new song" Rev 14:3
- they are "before the throne" Rev 14:3
- they are "not defiled" Rev 14:4
- they "follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth" Rev 14:4
- they are "redeemed from among men" Rev 14:4
- they are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" Rev 14:4
- "in their mouth was found no guile" Rev 14:5
- "they are without fault before the throne of God" Rev 14:5
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