20 Logic errors used by evolutionists when discussing origins

TeddyKGB

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KCDAD said:
Spontaneous generation? Nope. Nothing produces something? Nope.
I am afraid the genesis of the universe is somewhat more complex than can be described by two simplistic terms.
Law of conservation of energy... matter and energy can not be created or destroyed... only transferred. transferred from what?
Those laws describe observations within the universe. They do not prescribe ontologically necessary events or behaviors.
If there was a big bang, what banged? Something. Whatever that was where did it come from? Whatever answer you come up with... that's God.
Quantum mechanics has some intriguing suggestions if you care to give up this fourth-grade logic.
 
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KCDAD

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TeddyKGB said:
I am afraid the genesis of the universe is somewhat more complex than can be described by two simplistic terms.

Those laws describe observations within the universe. They do not prescribe ontologically necessary events or behaviors.

Quantum mechanics has some intriguing suggestions if you care to give up this fourth-grade logic.

So explain to me the genesis of the universe, oh great logitian. Be sure NOT to include any observations as they must irrelevant according to your superior logic. Just give me absolute, objective facts. Use small words as I am unable to understand anything above 4th grade level.
 
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TeddyKGB

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KCDAD said:
So explain to me the genesis of the universe, oh great logitian. Be sure NOT to include any observations as they must irrelevant according to your superior logic. Just give me absolute, objective facts. Use small words as I am unable to understand anything above 4th grade level.
Pretty much the only thing we confidently know about the pre-Planck universe is that we lack the mathematics and vocabulary to describe it; we can't even distinguish between "something" and "nothing" at that distance and time.
 
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Andrey

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Since most of us here beleive that God created the universe, we accept that God created gravity and paticles, therefore God created the law of conservation of energy (actually I mean a world in which the conservation of energy can be observed to be a law)

Therefore saying that the law of conservation of energy is proving the inexistance of God is like trying to take one of Gods creations as a proof that he doesnt exist.
 
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Loudmouth

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KCDAD said:
Well that is the point of theology after all. How does one explain the unexplainable?

Actually, the question ought to be "How do we find the answers?" Exclaiming "GodDidIt" stops research, which is why creationism is so anti-science. Saying "I don't know but I want to figure it out" is what scientists do.
 
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nvxplorer

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KCDAD said:
Spontaneous generation? Nope. Nothing produces something? Nope. Law of conservation of energy... matter and energy can not be created or destroyed... only transferred. transferred from what? If there was a big bang, what banged? Something. Whatever that was where did it come from? Whatever answer you come up with... that's God.
So, “God” is a metaophor for that which caused the big bang? I’m fine with that. It’s when this metaphor is expanded to describe every unknown, and personified as a deity which creates a dust-man and rib-woman that I take issue with.
 
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Phylogeny

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1. Fuzzy Words

Use of “fuzzy words” demonstrates that evolutionists do not have the evidence to support their claims.

That's how science works. Scientists are not allowed to say anything for certain, they can only make conjectures on the evidence at hand and make models which predict phenonmenon. You may want to try reading some science papers, there is no scientist that will say, 'It is an infallible truth that...". Those darn scientists! ;)

2. Half Truth

Example: The Second Law of Thermodynamics only applies to isolated systems, so it is not relevant to evolution, because the earth is an open system

Earth is an open system, we get energy from the sun. Second Law is not applicable to evolution---try talking to some biophysicists.

3. Bandwagon
The appeal to “everyone agrees”
Example: All scientists accept evolution
No real scientist accepts creation
To see a list of scientists that believe in a literal 6-day creation got to: www.AnswersInGenesis.org

I want to annouce RIGHT NOW I will bet anyone $100 that the science establishment DO accept evolution as cornerstone of evolution. Check out the National Academy of Sciences site on evolution:

http://nationalacademies.org/evolution/

Check out a poll taken on scientists and their stance on evolution:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm

Only 5% of scientists take a creationist view but they also include those in nonrelated fields that do not utilize evolution such as computer science. And you want to see list of scientists who accept evolution...I believe they only allow those named 'Steve' to sign those, they are up to 577 now I believe. But there is a better list from the landmark court case of Edwards v. Aguillard where the Supreme Court ruled public schools cannot teach creationism alongside evolution:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/edwards-v-aguillard/amicus1.html

A legal brief signed by 72 US nobel laureates, 17 state academies of science and 7 other major science organizations in support of teaching only evolution in a science classroom. Yes, they must be in the tiny, tiny minority. Those wacky scientists! :D


4. Glittering Generalities
A broad oversimplification of an explanation
Example: Scientists may disagree about the mechanism of evolution, but all agree that evolution is a fact.


Wrong. No one says evolution is a fact, it is a theory. The beauty of evolution is that it is a simple explanation for a wide range of phenomenon in nature. Scientists disagree about the minor details of evolution, but most agree it is happening.

5. Loaded Words
Using emotionally-charged words to influence a reaction
Example: Creationism is a tactic by the “Christian right” to force their religious agenda on our children

Know of any atheists who advocate creationism? Do you have any proof that creationism is a science? Papers? Research? Predicative models?

6. Association
Associating something you want to criticize with something people dislike
Example: Associating creation in the same sentence with astrology or known myths

Hey, if it quacks like a duck.....


7. Ridicule
Attempting to provoke a dislike against a person or idea by name-calling
Example: Creationists are troglodytes and flat-earthers

Of course, creationists never call 'evolutionists' bad names. It's not like any good creationists have ever accused evolutionists of being immoral atheists, or godless scientists out to corrupt the morals of our youth.


8. Circumstantial Evidence
Assuming physical evidences are related
Example: We are here therefore we must have evolved (this is often the best evidence used to support evolution)
Example: Fossil horses arranged into an evolutionary sequence

Ohhhhh....because science works when we see something, anything we don't directly see means didn't happen----better tell those chemists and physicists their work is bunk! Those darn forensic scientists going around saying this or that person committed the crime! They weren't there! They can't possibly have other ways of deducing whodunit!

9. Either-Or Fallacy
Presenting only one possible solution when others are justified
Example: If we teach creation then we will have to teach every other creation myth

Not sure what to say to this....if we teach biblical creationism...why would we NOT teach Hindu and Buddha creationist stories as well? Equal time for all....

10. Analogy
Improperly drawing parallels while ignoring pertinent differences
Example: Evolution is a fact like digestion or gravity

Evolution is not a fact. Please get YOUR facts straight. Better yet, do a search on the difference between fact, theory, and hypothesis.


11. Authority
Relying on authority rather than logic and evidence
Example: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution”
Example: Citing one scholar who claims the days of Genesis could have been long ages

Those wacky scientists! Why should we have scientists in charge of science?! Having religious leaders in charge of science has worked out so well for most of human history. :D

12. Extrapolation
Assuming a trend beyond what the data permits
Example: Radioactive dating methods prove the earth is 4.6 billion years old
Example: Mutations are the mechanism for evolution

Uh...it's what scientists do...intepretate data. We even get to do a lot of that in grad school. Crazy, crazy scientists.....


13. Best-in-Field Fallacy
An appeal to overlook discrepancies in a theory
Example: We don’t have all the answers, but evolution is the best model we have

That's how science works. We have a model, if it can make predications, we accept it until it fails at a predication, then we modify it. Evolution has undergone this process for 150 years....seems like it has served biologists pretty well....

14. Shifting the Burden of Proof
Forgetting that it is your responsibility to prove a claim, not your opponents to disprove it
Example: Claiming that creation has no proof and therefore should not be taught, when evolution has never been proven or is even capable of proof

Come to my mom's lab.


15. Ad Hominem
Attacking the person instead of the argument
Example: Asserting that creationists are ultra-conservative, do not have real degrees, or are liars
Example: Accusing creationists of quoting out of context when they did not
Quack! Quack!

So Dr. Hovind got his degree where...?!

16. Equivocation
Confusing the issue by using vague terms or changing the definitions of words
Example: Changing the definition of science to support only evolution
Example: Not clearly defining terms such as natural selection or macroevolution

I have no problem understanding science terms, but then again maybe I'm just some kind of genius. ;)

17. Card Stacking
Listing all the points in your favor while ignoring the serious points against it
Example: Pouncing on one item by your opponent but ignoring the major points of his/her argument
Example: Trying to prove evolution using finch beaks or antibiotic resistant bacteria but ignoring all the problems

Well, if you think there are problems, stop debating and starting doing some serious research. In science, debates are not done at the podium, it's done in the labs. Publish! Publish! Publish!

18. Bluffing
Appearing to know more than you do
Example: Making the claim that the fossil record is full of transitional fossils
Example: Dinosaurs evolved into birds

You are right, it's ridiculous to think scientists may know more about science than me....we should close down all those stupid medical schools, dumb doctors who think they know more about medicine than we do....

19. Appeasement
The appeal that we're not really so different
Example: Most religions don’t have a problem with evolution

Well, it's true. :~)

20. Visualization
Using imagery to mislead or to substitute for evidence
Example: The evolutionary tree of life
Example: The geologic column
Example: Reconstruction of alleged “apemen”

Yeah, using data to prove something. We all know that's not how true science operates! Real scientists uses the Bible to find all the answers! Vaccines! Antibotics! Germ Theory! They were all discovered through rigorous readings of the Bible!
 
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USincognito

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KCDAD said:
Spontaneous generation? Nope. Nothing produces something?

O.k. This tells a lot of us what level of ignorance we're dealing with when it comes to a discussion of historical theories. Spontaneous Generation does not postulate "nothing coming from nothing" since, similarly to evolutionary theory, it postulates existing matter. Examples of Spontaneous Generation would be maggots coming from meat, mice coming from grain or geese coming from barnalces.

KCDAD said:
Nope. Law of conservation of energy... matter and energy can not be created or destroyed... only transferred. transferred from what?

Despite the fact that Creationists try and conflate Cosmology, Astrophysics, geology, etc. phsyics and biology are actually different areas of study and the related apsects are quite different.

KCDAD said:
If there was a big bang, what banged? Something.

The Creationist hatred of the Big Bang theory makes my irony meter explode. Big Bang theory is basically creationism (little "c") expressed scientifically.

KCDAD said:
Whatever that was where did it come from? Whatever answer you come up with... that's God.

Why don't Creationists realize that it doesn't matter where "it" comes from, or how the Sun, Earth or Life was formed? Evolutionary theory addresses extant nascient life and how it developed over the course of Earth's 4.6 billion year history.

And no, our conclusion isn't God. Life might have originated with panspermia, abiogenesis or directed panspermia (like being conjured up by transdimensional high schoolers)... but the origin of life doesn't effect whether there is evidence said extant life has evolved since it's advent.
 
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HairlessSimian

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Phylogeny said:
1. Fuzzy Words

Use of “fuzzy words” demonstrates that evolutionists do not have the evidence to support their claims.

That's how science works. Scientists are not allowed to say anything for certain, they can only make conjectures on the evidence at hand and make models which predict phenonmenon. You may want to try reading some science papers, there is no scientist that will say, 'It is an infallible truth that...". Those darn scientists! ;)

<nit-pick>
Scientists are allowed to say anything they want (it's a free country and I wouldn't have it any other way), but fortunately cannot publish anything they want in respectable, peer-reviewed journals.
</nit-pick>

Phylogeny said:

4. Glittering Generalities
A broad oversimplification of an explanation
Example: Scientists may disagree about the mechanism of evolution, but all agree that evolution is a fact.


Wrong. No one says evolution is a fact, it is a theory. The beauty of evolution is that it is a simple explanation for a wide range of phenomenon in nature. Scientists disagree about the minor details of evolution, but most agree it is happening.


...
Phylogeny said:
10. Analogy
Improperly drawing parallels while ignoring pertinent differences
Example: Evolution is a fact like digestion or gravity

Evolution is not a fact. Please get YOUR facts straight. Better yet, do a search on the difference between fact, theory, and hypothesis.


You're committing the very fallacy that you're trying to discredit when you generalize with "No one...". I, for one, am bold enough (and a good many others are as well) to go so far as to say that evolution is a FACT. And I rely on S. J. Gould - no slouch in the field - to support me on this.

Part of the problem is a language issue. There is the phenomenon called evolution, on the one hand, referring to change over time (what occurs), and evolutionary theory, on the other hand, which seeks to explain the changes observed in living forms (how it occurs). Most often, evolutionary theory is called "theory of evolution", which leads to a confusion (especially among creationist obfuscators) as to whether it explains the fact of evolution or whether evolution is merely theoretical (hence unproven), which it's NOT. Even in everyday language, saying "evolution" brings up thoughts of Darwin, who did not invent
what was already widely accepted in knowledgeable circles, but who theorized on it.
The evidence for the phenomena of change in living things that we call evolution is so staggeringly overwhelming that it is widely considered fact, with the same kind of certainty in its proper context as "apples fall from trees to the ground" is repeatedly true.

But you are right in asserting that scientists overwhelmingly recognize the fact of change in living forms (evolution) without agreement on details. Most do not work in the field of evolution. Those that do (including my wife) may disagree on details of the mechanisms of evolution, but I've never heard of one who disputes mutation, natural selection and other such mechanistic elements - elements considered so basic today that they are taught to budding scientists, elements that must form part of an (eventually comprehensive) theoretical treatment of evolution.

Phylogeny said:
11. Authority
Relying on authority rather than logic and evidence
Example: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution”
Example: Citing one scholar who claims the days of Genesis could have been long ages

Those wacky scientists! Why should we have scientists in charge of science?! Having religious leaders in charge of science has worked out so well for most of human history. :D

Well said!
Creationism has provided nothing to the body of human knowledge and contributed nothing to the methodology of science.
Besides, ... the bare statement "
Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" cannot be said to be an appeal to authority. It's a generalization to which all my biologist friends suscribe to, but it itself is not an authority.

Phylogeny said:
13. Best-in-Field Fallacy
An appeal to overlook discrepancies in a theory
Example: We don’t have all the answers, but evolution is the best model we have

That's how science works. We have a model, if it can make predications, we accept it until it fails at a predication, then we modify it. Evolution has undergone this process for 150 years....seems like it has served biologists pretty well....

<nit-pick>
Correction: Evolutionary theory
has undergone this process for 150 years. Evolution has occured since Life began.
And the word I believe you mean is "prediction", not predication.
</nit-pick>



 
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KCDAD

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USincognito said:
And no, our conclusion isn't God. Life might have originated with panspermia, abiogenesis or directed panspermia (like being conjured up by transdimensional high schoolers)... but the origin of life doesn't effect whether there is evidence said extant life has evolved since it's advent.

But that is the point. By definition whatever originated life is THE CREATOR... which we call God.
 
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KCDAD

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Valkhorn said:
Why is it ok to tout the 'something never comes from nothing' argument when not talking about God, but when talking about God it's perfectly ok?

That is the point... you can not talk of God (except in mythology) in terms of beginning or end. One of the inherant characteristics of God is that God is transcendent... that is, beyond time. You don't have to picture a big guy with a beard... Think of God as a universal principle like truth or F=MA if you wish.
You almost got it... just one more step and you understand.
 
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TeddyKGB

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KCDAD said:
That is the point... you can not talk of God (except in mythology) in terms of beginning or end. One of the inherant characteristics of God is that God is transcendent... that is, beyond time. You don't have to picture a big guy with a beard... Think of God as a universal principle like truth or F=MA if you wish.
You almost got it... just one more step and you understand.
Why is "transcendent" or "beyond time" allowed to describe God but nothing else?
 
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USincognito

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KCDAD said:
But that is the point. By definition whatever originated life is THE CREATOR... which we call God.

No. That's the exact opposite of my response. We don't call aliens directing pansperia God. We don't call abiogenesis God. We don't call panspermia (which is really just abiogenesis removed from the Earth as a starting point) God. We wouldn't call hyperdimensional high schoolers conducting an experiment God.

Someone get Naom Chomsky on the phone for me please...

Not that that was my core point either. It does not matter where or how life originated. The question of whether life, from primordial forms has evolved over the last 3-4 billion years on Earth is highly evidenced, and that extant and fossils species came about because of common descent is undeniable. Biogenesis is ultimately a red herring in a discussion of Evolution.
 
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TheRealSkeptic

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Sarcopt said:
False analogy: (the biggest and by far my favourite). Claiming that A is like B, and since A has property X, B must also have property X. Ex. Living systems are complex, highly integrated machinery. Humans make complex, highly integrated machinery. Therefore, an intelligent designer must have made life.

Proof of fallacy: Human-made machines are very different from biological ones in almost every aspect of their organization. Human-made machinery doesn't reproduce and therefore lacks the number-one prerequisite for evolution. The analogy is irrelevant.


This is your favorite false analogy? How about this one. Nature-is-Language

Machine is a teleonomic word. It requires purpose

Program- A set of coded instructions that enables a machine, especially a computer, to perform a desired sequence of operations.


Does every cell in your body contain a set of hollistic coded instructions?--Yes, the genetic code can be found multiple times written onto the DNA molecule within each of your cells in every organism and continue function.

Do the coded instructions perform a desired sequence of operations in the cell?--Yes, the DNA can now be taken out of one cell, and can be implanted it into a different cell, both from the same organism.

Programs do not arise without an intelligent designer.
 
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TeddyKGB

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TheRealSkeptic said:
This is your favorite false analogy? How about this one. Nature-is-Language

Machine is a teleonomic word. It requires purpose

Program- A set of coded instructions that enables a machine, especially a computer, to perform a desired sequence of operations.


Does every cell in your body contain a set of hollistic coded instructions?--Yes, the genetic code can be found multiple times written onto the DNA molecule within each of your cells in every organism.

Do the coded instructions perform a desired sequence of operations in the cell?--Yes, the DNA can now be taken out of one cell, and can be implanted it into a different cell, both from the same organism.

Programs do not arise without an intelligent designer.
Can I now assume that this is the rhetorical extent of your argument, so that I may put you on ignore without running the risk of missing something profound?

Be seeing you.
 
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TheRealSkeptic

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TeddyKGB said:
Can I now assume that this is the rhetorical extent of your argument, so that I may put you on ignore without running the risk of missing something profound?

Be seeing you.


I want to know what you think about the hollistic code in your body. What's your take?
 
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