2 things that trouble this agnostic

[Katie7725]

I, with great respect for Christians, would like to post some things that trouble me about religion. If you can help me get over these problems pleeeez feel free to comment.

1. the concept of hell really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The idea that people will roast in a eternal furnace disturbs me a lot. I wouldn't wish that on anyone not even my worst enemies. If hell is real my deceased father is there b/c he was an atheist, I don't know if I ever could believe something that teaches that.

2. Evolution: There seems to be so much evidence for it, do christians have an answer for this?

Ok thx for taking the time to read this, I hope it didn't bore u to tears. If u can help me deal with these troubles please feel free to comment.

 

[Digit]

Heya Katie, and welcome to the Outreach area.

1. the concept of hell really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The idea that people will roast in a eternal furnace disturbs me a lot. I wouldn't wish that on anyone not even my worst enemies. If hell is real my deceased father is there b/c he was an atheist, I don't know if I ever could believe something that teaches that.

From my initial foray into this area, I've found two things. First up, is that what you are describing is a very Hollywood version of Hell. Not everyone believe in that, and indeed there isn't much Biblical evidence that supports it either. There is one specific passage that talks about eternal seperation from God, which indeed may be the case, it does not stipulate eternal, conscious, tormented seperation.

When we die, we enter a stage of sleep. In fact throughout the Bible death is actually referred to as sleep, as it is not permanent. We are then brought back at the time of judgement and face God. Those who are sinless and have accepted Him, enter His Kingdom. Those who are not, are cast into the lake of eternal fire. This is where they suffer the second death. There is a disctinction made between the first and second deaths, in that the second one, is eternal. I think that is where the confusion of eternaty being spent in the lake of fire arises from, I choose to believe that it is in fact eternal as in a permanent punishment. I am rusty on this, as you can tell, so maybe someone else should jump in and help me out!

2. Evolution: There seems to be so much evidence for it, do christians have an answer for this?

This is somewhere in which I am not so rusty. First of all understanding what is meant by evolution is important. There are a few different views on this, though a very common view is that we descend from a common ancestor. Imagine a tree, the trunk is the common ancestor and as you move down you hit the roots which branch out in all directions, each root, is a line of different creatures from every other root. Yet they are all attached to the common ancestor. This is called Macro-Evolution, as it occurs on a grand scale. Christians have no real issue with Micro-Evolution, which means that God created many different kinds of animal, and within that kind, they evolved into different types. Like dogs and wolves for example. In this case, imagine a bamboo field, with each stalk representing one type of animal, like dogs. Then follow it down to the roots, and you have numerous different types of dogs from that one original kind. However we believe that God created all the original kinds.

So that's an overview. In terms of evidence, this is the key factor. First you need to understand that the majority of the world reject God. In that sense, they do not believe in a young Earth. They believe it is billions of years old. They believe this, because they need billions of years for evolution to work. There are some Christians who accept evolution, (Theistic Evolutionists) and they read the Bible as a figurative story, that reveals God's character, yet is not a historic account of the events. I believe this is a false approach, as your faith should remain grounded in scripture. You should not change scripture to accomodate the findings of man, who is prone to error and sin.

If you can cite some specific evidence, I can provide more information about it. For a start however I would read this site. Just do a search in the top right for something you are interested in, and read a few of the hits. It responds quite accurately.

Ok thx for taking the time to read this, I hope it didn't bore u to tears. If u can help me deal with these troubles please feel free to comment.

It's a pleasure. Have fun!

Digit

 

[Katie7725]

thanks, so u think the 2nd death is being dead forever. That seems a lot more just to me. Which branch of Christianity do u attend?

 

[christianmomof3]

Hi Katie!
I think that Digit did a wonderful job of answering your questions.
I agree with him that the concept of hell that you present is one that is found in religion, but it is not Biblical or correct.
Dante's Inferno is a very interesting and imaginative book, but it is fiction, not fact.
Digit's explanation of death sounds rather accurate to me. Of course, I have not died, so I do not know for sure and once I do know I am not planning to come back and explain it.

As far as the theory of evolution goes - it is a theory.
It is not a fact.
It is not proven and there are many different explanations that abound about it.

I just know that God is real and He is love and He is fantastic!
I pray that you will come to know Him too.

 

[Katie7725]

It all seems so hard to believe and understand. I grew up in a household that never spoke of God or anything of religion. A friend said I should check out this site. Does God even know me?

 

[Digit]

thanks, so u think the 2nd death is being dead forever. That seems a lot more just to me. Which branch of Christianity do u attend?

Hey again Katie,

Branch, do you mean denomination? Well, currently I am non-denominational. ie I don't have one, or rather, I don't really subscribe to that sort of mentality very well. Generally my view of denominations is that they are groups of people who share common beliefs and interpretations of certain things. We all believe in the same core message, and the same core tenants of Christianity, we just find some things more important than others, or choose to focus on those things more than others do.

I am still very much learning all I can learn about these things, as such I find it premature to choose a denomination. I do however attend a Church of Christ, in fact, this one right here (I didn't know we had a website...), which has a very Biblical teaching. ie All their sermons and so forth, are supported by scipture. I have so far found no fault in this, it's a great way to A) Get a good grounding in Christianity, B) Make sure you walk with the Lord, as anything from scripture is from God, and C) Get to learn a little more.

I think the single most helpful piece of advice I could give you, if you are seriously seeking, is to pretend you know absolutely nothing about Christianity, try and get rid of all those presuppositions (pre-conceived notions) and approach it with an open mindset. In addition, if you are interested in just learning about the basics, I would suggest attending an Alpha course. Grab a friend for moral support, and dive in.

All the best!
Digit

 

[Digit]

It all seems so hard to believe and understand. I grew up in a household that never spoke of God or anything of religion. A friend said I should check out this site. Does God even know me?

Of course He does. You have His spirit in you. You are made in His image, you have a consciousness, a spirit, you are emotional and have free will. All these traits are those of God too, that's what being made in His image means.

I assume that your friend is a Christian, in which case you already have a good friend to drag along to an alpha course, seriously, it's a lot of fun. It's basically a non-threatening environment, where people can learn about Christianity. It's not church. There is no praise and worship, no praying unless you really want to at the very end, and essentially it's like a meal out, where you talk big scary God stuff.

Well, I had a lot of fun anyhow. I can relate to what you say about it seeming hard to understand or relate to. I mean, even now, I struggle to look at something plain and ordinary, like a brick, and reconcile that with an all powerful God. The two seem so distant from each other. One seems extremely ordinary, the other totally fantastical.

It is difficult. I suppose though, a good question would be, why did you visit this site and post here? I know your friend asked you to check it out, but what made you do it?

Digit

Edit: *sigh* Eventually I will remember to post everything I mean to, in one go...
A) God is a loving God. The idea of Him tolerating an eternal state of suffering and torture (lets call it Hollywood Hell), does not reconcile with the idea of a loving God at all. I do not believe this is the case, and as mentioned the Bible does not illuminate it to be either.
B) In regards to evolution, people love stating it is a fact. If you actually begin to look into it, I think the first thing you will feel, is incredibly angry, because you most likely as I, were taught a great deal of things during out life so far, that were presented as rock solid, known for sure, fact. Yet they are not. They are based on assumptions. One example, is that the dating methods used to date things, like fossils and rock and so on, are woefully inaccurate. They have error margins of millions of years and, well it's difficult to get into without getting technical. However if you do some searches on that site I linked you, there are plenty of articles. They are also rated in terms of complexity, as many scientists write articles there, and as such they can get quite complex.

 

[gluadys]

I, with great respect for Christians, would like to post some things that trouble me about religion. If you can help me get over these problems pleeeez feel free to comment.

1. the concept of hell really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The idea that people will roast in a eternal furnace disturbs me a lot. I wouldn't wish that on anyone not even my worst enemies. If hell is real my deceased father is there b/c he was an atheist, I don't know if I ever could believe something that teaches that.

Yes, I would have a big problem with that too. Fortunately that description owes a lot more to medieval imagination than to the bible.

2. Evolution: There seems to be so much evidence for it, do christians have an answer for this?

Absolutely. The vast majority of Christians accept evolution as a scientifically valid description of how life on earth diversified into many species. In fact, several prominent evolutionary scientists are Christians including Michael Behe, Francis Collins, Bob Baker and Kenneth Miller.

Behe is best known for his promotion of Intelligent Design which questions the limits of Darwinian mechanisms, but he does accept that all life evolved from simple life forms that existed billions of years ago and has just published a book explaining what he accepts as well as rejects on evolution. (Sorry, but I have forgotten the name.) Francis Collins is head of the Human Genome Project and speaks of his Christian faith in The Language of God. Bob Baker is a world renowned expert on dinosaurs and also the Rev. Bob Baker, ordained in the Pentecostal church. Kenneth Miller is a professor of biology (and an opponent of Behe's Intelligent Design concept) and a Roman Catholic who has published a very readable book on evolution and Christianity called Finding Darwin's God. Highly recommended.

 

[Katie7725]

Lauren, my friend told me that Christianity would make my life better. Today we both went home from College and I have no one else to talk about it with. My mom just refers to it as a fairy tale. I believe there has to be something true about it if over 2 billion people believe in it. I'm was kinda reluctant and scared to join being a nonbeliever. I'm scared that Ill be seen as a heretic or something. My dad had a lot of influence on me b4 he passed away. He used to say "Katie, always be a skeptic b/c someones always trying to scam you." I'm just scared to dive into something like religion. I'm also scared of my families reaction if I become a christian. Going to this site seemed the most secure way of learning about Christianity. Thanks 4 the reply!

PS. I know this sounds really dumb but how do I post a picture on my member page?

 

[Digit]

Lauren, my friend told me that Christianity would make my life better. Today we both went home from College and I have no one else to talk about it with. My mom just refers to it as a fairy tale. I believe there has to be something true about it if over 2 billion people believe in it. I'm was kinda reluctant and scared to join being a nonbeliever. I'm scared that Ill be seen as a heretic or something. My dad had a lot of influence on me b4 he passed away. He used to say "Katie, always be a skeptic b/c someones always trying to scam you." I'm just scared to dive into something like religion. I'm also scared of my families reaction if I become a christian. Going to this site seemed the most secure way of learning about Christianity. Thanks 4 the reply!

Well that's great. I think the first thing is that you should seperate the people from the religion. Being unique individuals, we all add our own spin on things, and some are better at upholding God's laws, than others. For example Glaudys above has already added in her belief about evolution, I don't share this and it doesn't matter in the slightest. We are united in Christ and as such we still uphold His laws and follow His teachings and have accepted Him in our lives. That is all that matters.

In regards to being branded a heretic, we are taught, to love the sinner, not the sin. Just as Jesus did. Basically it means, regardless of what you do or believe in, we are told to treat you as we would have someone treat us, because that is the example Jesus left with us. He socialised with the prostitutes, as He loved them and wanted to offer them salvation, but He did not love or condone their actions, their sin.

Please don't think I am being judgemental here, I am not. I am a sinner too. Sometimes more than others, we all are. So I am not pointing the finger, in fact that kind of behaviour will specifically not be tolerated here on CF.

PS. I know this sounds really dumb but how do I post a picture on my member page?

Go to the top of the page and click on "Control Panel" then click on Edit Avatar or Edit Picture depending which you wish to change. Avatar is the one in the top right.

Digit

 

[Katie7725]

thanks, Im such a religion noob. I think I am going to attend a church this sunday, ill tell u how it goes.

 

[Digit]

thanks, Im such a religion noob. I think I am going to attend a church this sunday, ill tell u how it goes.

Haha. Well, despite people saying Christianity is so simple, a child could understand it. I haven't found that so far, yet I think that's largely because I battle to seperate the people from the message. I get wrapped up in debates and so forth, yet really it comes down to two main things:

Love God, and live a Christ-like life. The rest is all there to support these two things, expand on them and clarify them. We just mess it up 'cos we're human.

Digit

 

[ebia]

I, with great respect for Christians, would like to post some things that trouble me about religion. If you can help me get over these problems pleeeez feel free to comment.

1. the concept of hell really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The idea that people will roast in a eternal furnace disturbs me a lot. I wouldn't wish that on anyone not even my worst enemies. If hell is real my deceased father is there b/c he was an atheist, I don't know if I ever could believe something that teaches that.

There are a wide variety of Christian views about hell, what it is if anything and who will end up suffering from it if anybody.

2. Evolution: There seems to be so much evidence for it, do christians have an answer for this?

That it's true.

 

[MrDave]

Dear Friend:

Read your two concerns, ONLY TWO?…lol. I am a believer and I have far more then two concerns, but I believe by faith but pray constantly for understanding. “Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief.”

You expressed concerns about hell, and I too have concerns about hell, because there was a time I was headed there and I realize I deserved to go to Hell. Yet, through the blood of Jesus Christ, I escaped the wrath we have all “earned.” “For all have sinned”, “and the earnings of sin is death”. (the second death) Yet, if what I believe the Bible teaches is true, then my mother and most of my family will be eternally separated from God and be in eternal torment forever. The only difference between my family and me is belief. I believed what I read in the Bible, my family did not. We all had the same opportunities to accept or reject what God has plainly said.

I was going to explain what I think the Bible says about Hell, but it does not matter what I think, or you think, or anyone else thinks, or what any religion or denomination or Hollywood or any author thinks. It only matters what GOD SAYS. “God said it, that settles it, I believe it”, but whether I do or don’t doesn’t change a thing.

Interestingly, Jesus is the one who spoke most about hell, and being God, he would best know what really lies ahead for those who do not accept HIS gift of eternal life. So I think the place to start would be to read what Jesus says concerning hell. So if you have a Bible, read the following, if you don’t you can easily find these Bible verses on the internet. So I have listed some Bible verses where Hell is described, I think you will have little problem understanding. Mark Twain once said: “It’s not what I don’t understand about the Bible that scares me, it’s what I do understand.”

So read: Mark 9: 43-48, Matthew: 5:22, 29-30, 7:13, 10:28, 13:39-50. 25:30, 41, 46. You may not agree with me but it seems that HELL IS A PREPARED PLACE!!! With fully conscious people totally aware of what is happening to them. If “eternal life” means never-ending life with God then “eternal punishment” must also mean, “never-ending.” Notice, Jesus speaks of heaven and earth passing away, and New Heaven and New Earth, but no mention of Hell passing away!!!

As a believer I take little comfort knowing I have escaped this, but I can not “soft-soap” it either. I can only pass along what Jesus himself says about it, and it’s VERY FRIGHTENING because people I know and love will not escape. Nor will they listen. It’s not my job to convince you because I know I can’t but it is my job to warn you, “of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire;” I would rather speak of the Love of God, but sometimes speaking of the Wrath of God is more effective.

Moving along to Luke and the only TELECAST FROM HELL in scriptures of what hell is like from someone in hell. Luke 16:23-31. This man was in torment, fully conscious of pain and suffering, and remembered his life and family on Earth. But there was nothing he could do about it. He was there, totally miserable, totally helpless and awaiting his judgment. Where was the party with all his friends that people joke about? But, even this was not the Lake of Fire, not the SECOND DEATH, not the FINAL DESTINATION. This was just the holding pen.

Well, how could God be punishing him before his judgment? Answer is in John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”. My brother jokes that when he stands before God, he’ll get it straightened out then. Sorry, the sentence is already in, but there is a way to change the verdict.

Paul reveals in Second Thessalonians 1:8-9, “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.” To say that the punishment is temporary and will end someday is to say God is lying.

How I wish it was a temporary condition and that God would just end it for them, but HE SAYS it’s eternal punishment, and to say or think otherwise is to speak for God, like we know better.

John in Revelations 14:10-11, 20:19-20. Revelations 21: 10. note: “day and night forever” repeated.

I think the scriptures are literal and plain. No one would be happier then I if what I read is not true but…………….

For Revelations 20:15 sums it up for everyone, “For whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Add Rev 21:8 “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” What is the second death, their part in the lake of fire.

Those who have gone on ahead of you and me, had their opportunities to believe and there is nothing you can do about it, now you have your opportunity to believe, but it will not always be available.

Not believing does not make something not so, we must be careful that we are not “WILLINGLY IGNORANT”, 2 Peter 3:5 therefore “deceiving ourselves” James 1:22: I believe God wants you to know the following:

“God is not willing that any (YOU) should perish, but that all (YOU) should come to repentance.” BUT….

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteouness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they
( YOU and me) are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools”< Romans chapter 1:18-22 For {my thoughts} [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” Isaiah 55.

“But God showed His love for us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

BUT: “ Be not deceived; God is {not mocked}: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. In whom the god of {this world} hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we must all appear before the {judgment seat} of Christ, He(God the Father) that {spared not} his own Son(Jesus the Son), but delivered him(Jesus) up for us all…Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he (YOU) be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the {blood} of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

I could go on and on, but to sum it up:

God Loves You, and has done everything He can (and will do) for you so you can escape the wrath of God, even sacrificing his own totally innocent Son in your place for your sins. You only have to believe what God has done for you for yourself, confess(to say the same as God says) you’re a sinner and ask God to give you the FREE GIFT of salvation through His Son by believing and calling upon Him.

God is giving you ONE LIFETIME to find Him, He knows the day of your death, YOU DO NOT. There are no guarantees of tomorrow. I doubt anyone killed at Virginia Tech thought they were going to stand before God that day.

Heaven is a prepared place for prepared people, HELL is a prepared place for UNPREPARED people.

Are you PREPARED or UNPREPARED?

DECISION DETERMINES DESTINY​

 

[bukz]

Where is God?

 

[bennyk]

In regards to the concept of hell, I don't think any scripture makes it 100% clear. And although I do acknowledge that the above poster's belief of hell could absolutely be the way it is, I don't think we know for sure.

It is all about how you read it...
everlasting/eternal punishment
#1: A punishment that keeps punishing eternally (tormented eternally). The punishment is everlasting/eternal, the punishment will be felt eternally.

#2: a punishment that IS everlasting/eternal; if the unsaved were to be separated from God (or destroyed, thrown into the fire and annihilated, or other anti-eternal-physical-torment views, etc), this punishment would be everlasting/eternal. There would be no un-destroying, un-separating-from-God of someone. This punishment is eternal, there is no un-doing it.



unquenchable fire
#1: Unquenchable fire means it will never be satisfied, and therefore CONTINUALLY BURN one who is in it. This will cause eternal suffering.

#2: Unquenchable fire means it will never be satisfied, and therefore it will always be there TO CONSUME what is thrown into it. No amount of things thrown into it will cause it to stop burning, it will always burn up what is thrown into it.



I am not saying I believe one or the other. In fact, I am completely unsure and I just leave it up to saying, "I don't know, I'll trust that whichever way it is IS the right way, because after all God is perfect and just."

All I am saying is that these words can be interpreted differently.



In regards to evolution. Read up on Francis Crick (the "discoverer" of DNA). He found out that the chances of a SINGLE CELL (not even close to the complexity of a human or animal) organism forming by chance, was 1/10^44,000th power. In mathematics probability, anything with a smaller chance than 1/10^50th power is deemed impossible. As said before, evolutionary theory is a theory, it is dumbfounding that is being taught as fact.


In regards to the whole young earth thing...

In my personal opinion, Genesis 1 (because I've heard the actual Hebrew word would be better translated as "became" rather than "was") should look like this...

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth "BECAME" formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

It is argued that there was some catastrophic event that destroyed all life on earth and caused it to "BECOME" formless and EMPTY. This link (http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/the ages doc.htm) explains it well, and I suggest reading more from it than just the quote below...

"How long this First Age of the universe lasted we are not told. But it is evident that some kind of catastrophic event occurred which brought it to an end. There are many scriptures that tell us of the spiritual kingdom of darkness, which is ruled by the Adversary, who is in active rebellion against the kingdom of God (Ephesians 2:2; 6:12; Romans 8:38). The original rebellion, which birthed this kingdom of darkness, was most probably the cause of this catastrophic event, known as the Disruption, which affected the whole universe."

Notice how it became "empty"; this is implying that it was inhabited previously.

This means that the earth was created (Genesis 1:1 "God created the heavens and the earth."). Now at this point dinosaurs, Neanderthal man, yada yada yada, all that stuff could've existed. NONE OF WHICH was created in the likeness of God. At this point Neanderthal man would've simply been just as much as an animal as a lion or something (because it was not created in God's likeness).

Now in Genesis 1:27

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

This is when man as we know ourselves today was created (roughly 6,000 years ago).

Also, in regards to the earth being ~15 billion years old, I would have to agree with scientists. The Hebrew words for "evening" and "morning" which actually denote a day, I've read would be better translated as "disorder" and "order". So in my opinion it didn't take 6 24 hour days to create everything. I think this is a valid point, as if it were really meant to simply denote a day, wouldn't it make more sense to say "there was morning and there was evening"? No, because evening refers to disorder and morning refers to order.

This link: http://members.tripod.com/~robertwells/creation.html explains it quite well.

Keep in mind, all of this is just my interpretation (opinion based on scriptures and other scripture-related reading), so I could be wrong about it.

Thanks for readin' and God bless all,
--Benjamin


P.S. Going to church this week is a very good idea. Besides that, I would recommend opening your heart to Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit and saying this prayer out loud, "Please God, fill me with the Holy Spirit, and Lord Jesus come into my life and become the Lord of my life. Amen."

 

[bennyk]

If you have any more questions or would like to chat on msn messenger or yahoo messenger (or by email) or something like that, please let me know and I would be happy to answer any questions you have and help you as best I can.

Thanks and God bless,
--Ben

 

[MethodMan]

I, with great respect for Christians, would like to post some things that trouble me about religion. If you can help me get over these problems pleeeez feel free to comment.

1. the concept of hell really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The idea that people will roast in a eternal furnace disturbs me a lot. I wouldn't wish that on anyone not even my worst enemies.

Join the club

If hell is real my deceased father is there b/c he was an atheist, I don't know if I ever could believe something that teaches that.

How do YOU know that?

2. Evolution: There seems to be so much evidence for it, do christians have an answer for this?

What answer are you looking for?

Ok thx for taking the time to read this, I hope it didn't bore u to tears. If u can help me deal with these troubles please feel free to comment.

 

[MethodMan]

By the way, Welcome to CF

 

[christianmomof3]

Where is God?

God is omnicient. He is everywhere. He is in heaven on His throne. He is also living within all of His regenerated believers. He is always accessable. Just call upon His name and He is there.