2 thess 2:3 "Falling Away"? is it Blasphemy

Chinchilla said:

I can give you twice as much on not being able to lose salvation but you would obviously not take them , however there are no contradictions in Bible so if you don't set your bad presuppositions straight there is no point in arguing further .

How long does eternal life last ?

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The verses that pertain to not being able to lose salvation are saying that outside forces cannot take away a person’s salvation. They do not say a person cannot fall away or turn away from God.

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

John 15:1-6

A person must remain in Christ to receive salvation. In order for someone to not remain in Christ they would have to first be in Christ then turn away from Him.

The Book of Life

“All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭

“For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NLT‬‬

“And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬

“Erase their names from the Book of Life; don’t let them be counted among the righteous.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭69:28‬

My friend a person’s name can be erased or blotted out of the book of life. We must continue to walk in the Spirit in order to receive salvation. We have received forgiveness. We do not attain salvation until we reach heaven. Just because someone is given salvation in this life doesn’t mean it can’t be taken away in this life. Salvation isn’t eternal until we reach heaven or the rapture takes place.

Douggg said:

brightness of his coming - is a not a brilliant "flash" of light as you are claiming.

You are inventing, by misusing Matthew 24:27 as part of your support rationale.

Matthew 24:27 contains a metaphor, as to how evident it will be of Jesus's return.

Jesus used the metaphor of lightning as part of his warning in the previous verses to not go chasing after rumors that some will say that he is in the desert or some other place..

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man comes.

Then you quoted this verse.... from the NIV....because it contained the word flashed.

The problem is the NIV is a dynamic equivalent translation - meaning it is not as accurate as a word for word translation as the KJV is. Notice the substantial difference.

kjv Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me

The NIV quote you made....
About noon as I was approaching Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me.

"flashed" is some NIV dynamic equivalent words. So you don't have a basis.

Also, them in Revelation 6, see Jesus in heaven before the throne of God, when the sixth seal takes place. And leads to them to assembling their armies in Revelation 16:16 to make war on Jesus to stop him from executing judgement on them. So it is not like a flash of light; the world will know that he is coming at that point.

So, what you need to do is reconcile "whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" with what it says in Revelation 19....

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

It is not going to be a flash like you are saying - as you have misinterpreted Matthew 24:27 and the version you are using for Acts 22:6 is flawed.

Consider Jesus will speak the destruction of the armies gathered to make war on him (metaphorically the sword in his mouth in Revelation 19, verse 15) and projecting from his eyes, which are described as a flame of fire, a bright focused beam of light onto the beast and and false prophet - which beams them into the lake of fire, a portal opening, then closing - as a possibility, we don't have enough information given to know for certain.

Also, in similitude, Jesus melting away the facade of the statue image of the beast - incarnated by Satan - that will be worshiped - bringing it to ashes, exposing Satan for everyone present to see, fulling Ezekiel 28:

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

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No friend, you don't get off that easy with me. You need to answer my post reply #150, before you sidetrack to the Moon and back.

Please give a valid and compelling argument for or against my reply to you in post #150, in regards to Acts 1:11.

My post #150 link is below, in case you have forgotten what we were contending about.

Please get back on task and prove your point from the book of Acts, as to what cloud means exegetically.

Chinchilla said:

Yea Exactly , Abraham believed once in resurrection of Isaac and was counter him as righteous for rest of his life right .

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Abraham did not turn away from God so yes he was counted as righteous for the rest of his life. What about verses 14 and 19 & 20?

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20‬

The Times said:

You stated in post #185

"Of course it is not a natural cloud in that particular case because God specifically stated He will appear in the cloud."

Ok........let us couple it with your other comment below....

"cloud means cloud - unless otherwise stated in the text."

Ok.......

Using your methodology and please wait for the drum roll.......

Psalm 91:4 ..........drum roll please......

He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

God is a chicken according to your methodology.

According to your methodology of cloud means cloud, in that Jesus will appear in the cloud.

Jesus is a cloud and is made up of a cloud, which is made up of moisturious vapours. Jesus is a vapour, a spirit according to your model of interpretation.

Come on brother, please look at the picture you posted in #174 .

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Psalms 91 obviously contains metaphors. The cloud in Acts 1:9 is obviously not a metaphor, but part of a physical experience by the disciples as Jesus disappeared from their sight into the cloud.

It is not saying Jesus became the cloud. So, I even know why you got off on that kick.

In Acts 1:11, the two angels, men in white apparel, stated...

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus ascended up to heaven, and Jesus will descend back down to earth from heaven.

Revelation 19 gives a detailed description of Jesus's return to earth. Which does not include anything about destroying the earth.

BNR32FAN said:

Abraham did not turn away from God so yes he was counted as righteous for the rest of his life. What about verses 14 and 19 & 20?

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20‬

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Faith without works is dead, being alone!

The Times said:

You stated in post #185

"Of course it is not a natural cloud in that particular case because God specifically stated He will appear in the cloud."

Ok........let us couple it with your other comment below....

"cloud means cloud - unless otherwise stated in the text."

Ok.......

Using your methodology and please wait for the drum roll.......

Psalm 91:4 ..........drum roll please......

He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

God is a chicken according to your methodology.

According to your methodology of cloud means cloud, in that Jesus will appear in the cloud.

Jesus is a cloud and is made up of a cloud, which is made up of moisturious vapours. Jesus is a vapour, a spirit according to your model of interpretation.

Come on brother, please look at the picture you posted in #174 .

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There are clouds made up of water vapor, but there are also clouds of God's glory.

Davy said:

The apostasy is linked with what in that 2 Thess.2 chapter? It is linked with the coming of that "man of sin" Paul points to that will come to sit in the "temple of God" (Jerusalem, not the Church), and will proclaim himself as God, and over all that is even called... God, or that is worshipped.

One could say one's religious state leading up to that false Christ coming could be part of the falling away, but the actual link is to that coming Antichrist.

"But how can a believing Christian fall away to worship the Antichrist instead of Jesus?," one might ask.

The answer: by being deceived into thinking that false Christ is... our Lord Jesus having come. This very point our Lord Jesus warned us about (Matt.24:23-26). That's what Paul was pointing to in the 2 Thess.2 chapter. The Antichrist is not coming as a recognizable anti-Christ. He is coming to play God, and to fool as many will into thinking he is God. He will do great signs, wonders, and miracles, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men (Rev.13:11 forward). And the whole world (excepting Christ's elect) will worship him (Rev.13).

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The truth is, Paul did not write about a "falling away." He wrote "apostasia" which is a compound word of Apo and Stasia.

In strongs, Apo can mean a part of a whole spatially moved (departed) out of the whole to a different location. He was writing of the gathering as shown in his theme. The other word, stasia, means stationary, where we get a stationary engine, for example. What Paul is telling us is that the church will be departed so quickly, it will seem like the rest of the world is stationary, not moving.

Because in verse 3b the man of sin IS revealed, then apostasia has to be what Paul was writing of in verses 6-8 about the restraining force being "taken out of the way" so the man of sin can be revealed at the proper time. OF COURSE the church is "taken out of the way" at the rapture.

If People imagine Paul's meaning was a falling away, supposedly from the truth, how would anyone know when enough had fallen away to be the significant one Paul was meaning? The truth is, there have always been some who fall away, but more who come. the church is GROWING.

Dan the deacon said:

And even after reading the scriptures some would rather believe the poor teaching they've been taught rather than believe God's inspired Word.

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WOW! This is absolute truth!

Douggg said:

Well, I don't know for certain in every case, but it is very likely. I was just trying to point to an example, regarding what Paul was speaking of. Yusuf Estes came to mind. I could be completely wrong in his particular case. Maybe you should listen to how he became a muslim testimony to decide for yourself.

If them, Paul was speaking about were partakers of the Holy Ghost - does that not indicate to you that they were born again?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

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Not only born again, but a mature Christian who appreciates God's word and has had power gifts of the Holy Spirit flow through him or her to others. Paul is speaking here of MATURE believers. They CAN fall away. It's scripture. However, it would be VERY difficult for a beginning Christian to fall away.

Chinchilla said:

Why do you assume that if somebody is called Pastor that he must be born again aswell ?1 John 2:19

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I don't think - no can't even imagine that a mature believer in Christ would leave Christianity and turn to Islam. A mature believer would KNOW there is no salvation in anyone else than Christ!

Douggg said:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

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Douggg is right: we enter into eternal life the moment we are born again!

Hiscosmicgoldfish3 said:

falling away can be the drift into atheism, agnosticism, neo-pagan - as in the UK. Might happen in the US if there is enough time remaining.

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The "falling away" is a myth brought on by a poor translation! The church is GROWING, not falling away.

Dan the deacon said:

Woo boy!! There are some odd beliefs around this forum.

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You said that right!

Douggg said:

I don't know if this is talking about the difficulty of it - if someone were say someone like a pastor say left Christianity to become a muslim - like Yusuf Estes on You Tube - if they should decide to return to Christianity - or if it is an actual impossibility for the person to do so.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

______________________________________________________________

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I believe what the writer of Hebrews is possibly saying that is it impossible for a person to convince someone who has already partaken of the Holy Spirit and fallen away to come back to Christ because there is no more evidence we can present that would have any bearing that they don’t already know. Just my thoughts.

iamlamad said:

Faith without works is dead, being alone!

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Dead and useless hence not a saving type of faith.

iamlamad said:

There are clouds made up of water vapor, but there are also clouds of God's glory.

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A metaphor of God's Glory, perhaps!

@TribulationSigns mentioned about clouds representing God's Glory in his post #180, with the link below.....

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-is-it-blasphemy.8072485/page-9#post-72936875

iamlamad said:

The "falling away" is a myth brought on by a poor translation! The church is GROWING, not falling away.

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You are right. The church GROWING but lacks the Spirit of God. Many are running by false prophets and christs. They help created more professed Christians than the true Elects which explains the falling away from faith in the church.

Douggg said:

Psalms 91 obviously contains metaphors. The cloud in Acts 1:9 is obviously not a metaphor,

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Obviously!

Douggg said:

a physical experience by the disciples as Jesus disappeared from their sight into the cloud.

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It does not say "into the cloud". Scripture states......

"To lift up", that is a figurative term used for Christ's ascension into Heaven.

Which Heaven, within the context of his ascension?

With reference to Strong's exhaustive Concordance.....

http://biblehub.com/greek/5274.htm

A cloud "received" him.

Recieved is a term linked to "assumption", meaning it is directly connected to the antecedent phrase "to lift up", meaning to carry upward (assume) into Heaven, that is figuratively "to lift up".

To lift up where?

Into Heaven, that is the 3rd Heaven, where God (Ancient of Days) dwells.

"to take up" in the mind", i. e. to assume (Assumption/Ascension), suppose: Acts 2:15;

Stay within Acts, to understand how the author uses the same term "to take up", meaning to figuratively assume to another dimensional realm, not within our natural realm, with natural clouds.

In short Jesus ascended up on high, to the higher dimensional realm, the 3rd Heaven, which is behind the veil, which separates our natural habitation, from that of God's (Ancient of Days) presence (Daniel 7:13).

Therefore, Jesus did not disappear into a cloud, but disappeared into the 3rd Heaven.

Douggg said:

It is not saying Jesus became the cloud. So, I even know why you got off on that kick.

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You posted a picture of a natural vaporous cloud, as to imply that a natural cloud itself concealed Jesus from being seen by the disciples.

My contention is that it was not a natural cloud, but Jesus disappearance was in an instant, as to say here you see me in your natural realm, now you don't see me, because Jesus has ascended/assumed to a higher dimensional realm, that the disciples could not see. All they saw was a blur, a figurative cloud, that prevented them from capturing the actual process of how he went up into the 3rd Heaven. Just like how he appeared in the upper room, a cloud is a veil that prevents those from knowing where he came from, specifically the method by which he came. That is why Acts 1:11 does not explain the details of the how he disappeared and therfroe requires two angels to suddenly appear and to explain to them where he went.

God does not require a natural cloud to conceal his going to and coming from the 3rd Heaven, because the process itself is the figurative cloud, which prevents the natural man from seeing its processes.

Douggg said:

In Acts 1:11, the two angels, men in white apparel, stated...

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Their purpose was to explain Christ's sudden disappearance of here you see me, now you don't. Their purpose was to inform the disciples where Jesus went, because the process in itself is not the focus, because it was sudden.

Douggg said:

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

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The process of going to the 3rd Heaven is instantaneous, where the process is concealed and is the cloud/veil. The purpose was to declare to them where Jesus actually went to, not the process of going there.

Douggg said:

Jesus ascended up to heaven

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That he did, in an instant, without requiring a physical natural cloud to conceal his going to.

Douggg said:

Revelation 19 gives a detailed description of Jesus's return to earth. Which does not include anything about destroying the earth.

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Not interested, stick with the book of Acts!

iamlamad said:

The "falling away" is a myth brought on by a poor translation! The church is GROWING, not falling away.

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The "falling away" was the unanimous interpretation of the true Christian Church for over 1800 years, and is the unanimous translation of all contemporary English Bible versions.

The myth is the claim of a poor translation.

1am3laine said:

2 thess 2:3 KJV: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


2 thess 2:3 points out that a "falling away" will happen before the coming of the Lord.
In Greek it means Apostasia or Apostacy/Apostate.
The problem is the only way you can truly fall from Christianity is the blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
(matt 12:31-32, mark 3:28-30, luke 12:8-10)

I'm wondering is the falling away happening now because so many people are speaking against the Holy Spirit via the blasphemy challenge and twitter.

http://master-elaine.blogspot.com/2018/06/has-falling-away-begun-blasphemous.html<-- link here

The link above shows the blasphemous tweets.

Also the reason why taking the mark, name, or number (revelation 13:16-18) is unforgivable is because in 2 thess 2:4 he(anti-christ) will exalt himself above all that is worshiped and that included the Holy Spirit which is blasphemy and unforgivable.
So by default all that worshiped the anti-christ blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-blasphemy-challenge-and-the-mark-of-the-beast.2171/

Tell me your thoughts

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Blaspheme = speak lightly or irreverently, not to "fear" the NAME of the LORD

people today somehow have "faith" that human science is able to explain everything without invoking the Divine

so they no longer "fear" God in heaven... as if human science was some sort of "impenetrable Star Wars deflector shield" against Heavenly Powers... because of course they "assume all the way clear across the cosmos" that "The LORD isn't out there" (so to speak)

so they say "(human) science!", mentally declare "all clear! all clear!", and feel peaceful & safe

According to Revelation 20:10, "reality will intrude" (eventually)

guess we'll find out (eventually)