2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

BCsenior · Oct 22, 2018

LLH,
On some websites, some of God's prophets and watchmen are relaying what He wants the church to hear.
This was prophesied in the OT and referred to in the NT.
It's all about sin in the church.
Starting with the pastors who refuse to preach the messages they should be preaching to their sheep.
BACs must overcome (as Jesus overcame, Rev 3:21)
sin, the world, and the devil.
John's overcomers (1 John 5:5) only overcome the world.
We must overcome what Jesus overcame!
And He has made us fully able.

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

BCsenior said:
LLH,
On some websites, some of God's prophets and watchmen are relaying what He wants the church to hear.
This was prophesied in the OT and referred to in the NT.
It's all about sin in the church.
Starting with the pastors who refuse to preach the messages they should be preaching to their sheep.
BACs must overcome (as Jesus overcame, Rev 3:21)
sin, the world, and the devil.
John's overcomers (1 John 5:5) only overcome the world.
We must overcome what Jesus overcame!
And He has made us fully able.

Sin has always been an issue for believers to avoid.
But the reason why sin is being down played is because many "christian" assemblies do not believe in either listening to Jesus or dealing with sin. On some christian forums similar to this one it is a 50% split. So I would suggest this is about preaching to the unsaved and unbelievers in the traditional evangelical sense of conviction, repentance, confession and acceptance of the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.

So just preaching about sin, is deemed by some as legalism and condemnation. It therefore gets rather confusing, because what is claiming to be of the Lord is actually a different form of belief, and such believers regard righteous walking as the doctrine of hell. The divide takes time to work through assemblies but it is very real.

JLB777 · Oct 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
This is just a very stunning admission. Obviously you have no idea how destructive the false teaching about one's lack of security is.

The only reason I initially responded to one of your posts was because of what you said about losing salvation. i.e.; we are not "kept" if we do certain things.

As you opened your post, let's be honest here. There is nothing else going on.

OK, let's be honest here and show me what "excuses" you think I have been giving.

What continues to be absurd is a believer who claims we are kept has made statements contrary to that idea.

And that has been my point all along.

Did you not read what I posted?

So you really don't understand the point of correction??

Erroneous viewpoints will definitely NOT lead to the goals you list here. Ergo, correction.

No, many people think they are not kept and continually strive to "make sure" they don't lose out in the end. And this demonstrates UNBELIEF in what Jesus said.

How is that helpful for any believer?

You forgot something: knowledge of Scripture. It seems you are allergic to knowledge.

Eternal security is not found anywhere in the Bible.

This is a myth, promoted by corrupt Pastors to those who will tithe and give to have their ears tickled with lies.

We are called to light and to love God by loving our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Those who hate their brothers are murderers and no longer have eternal life within them.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Please present the scripture that teaches us a Christian is eternally secure in their salvation who hates his brother.

If you can’t then you are guilty of promoting a false doctrine in which you have transgressed the doctrine of Christ and are enticing God’s precious children away from Him by teaching them to do the same.

WARNING!

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

JLB

JLB777 · Oct 22, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
But sheep can be lost, and not found, wander off and die.

BCsenior · Oct 22, 2018

JLB777 said:
Please present the scripture that teaches us a Christian is eternally secure in their salvation who hates his brother.

Please present the scripture that teaches us a Christian is eternally secure in their salvation who refuses to forgive someone.

No one goes to heaven who has not repented
of their unforgiveness. Guaranteed.
Jesus said the Father will NOT forgive such a person.
If the Father will not forgive you ...
you're going down, not up.

We must believe the clear Scriptures, or else!
Don't believe your flesh, Satan, your pastor, etc.
Believe only the clear Scriptures.

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

Thinking about lost sheep.
If lost sheep could not actually be literally lost, why try and save them, because they are saved already.
If there is no danger to believers from false teachers or damage from sin, why preach against sinners, and believers who fall into sin. How can it make sense to expel unrepentant sinners if it makes no difference how believers behave?

Lostness is partly about having no hope or foundation that we are loved. God is distant and those we trusted have betrayed us, so we make the best of a bad job, and that is the cynical reality of life, which we tell ourselves. But the cross says, no, there is hope, real power, real victory and real truth that sets us free. Not free from temptation but free from the fear of death, from meaninglessness, from living with no purpose or focus, free from falling into worldly passions only to be destroyed by their consequences. Just look at those who become driven by hedonism, and you will see where that leads, an early death. Or even when heaven on earth becomes true, more money than you could ever earn, the heart destroys the person with self indulgence until all focus and meaning is lost. Man without love from God and a cleansed heart is truly doomed.

BCsenior · Oct 22, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Thinking about lost sheep.

I'd rather think about the Scriptures, thank you.

Gr8Grace · Oct 22, 2018

BCsenior said:
Please present the scripture that teaches us a Christian is eternally secure in their salvation who refuses to forgive someone.

What you don't have Mr. Zain, from the scriptures........is someone losing salvation, losing eternal life,losing His promises after they are saved and born-again.

You just have assumptions and a whole lot of 'reading into' verses.

John 10:28......A born-again believer/His sheep shall NEVER perish. PERIOD. Can't change it.

JLB777 · Oct 22, 2018

BCsenior said:
Please present the scripture that teaches us a Christian is eternally secure in their salvation who refuses to forgive someone.

No one goes to heaven who has not repented
of their unforgiveness. Guaranteed.
Jesus said the Father will NOT forgive such a person.
If the Father will not forgive you ...
you're going down, not up.

We must believe the clear Scriptures, or else!
Don't believe your flesh, Satan, your pastor, etc.
Believe only the clear Scriptures.

Amen.

That is my position.

Now just convince Freegrace.

JLB

LightLoveHope · Oct 23, 2018

Gr8Grace said:
What you don't have Mr. Zain, from the scriptures........is someone losing salvation, losing eternal life,losing His promises after they are saved and born-again.

You just have assumptions and a whole lot of 'reading into' verses.

John 10:28......A born-again believer/His sheep shall NEVER perish. PERIOD. Can't change it.

This is an interesting point. When the rich young man came to Jesus, who had kept the law, and in the eyes of jews was perfect Jesus said this,

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."
Matt 19:21-23

The disciples were shocked and asked

"Who then can be saved?"
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Matt 19:25-26

So anyone who makes salvation easy is fooling themselves. When things come down to essentials often we are just the product of our passions. So to walk in the Kingdom has to be more than this as Paul says

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Gal 5:24-25

How many believers know what Paul is talking about?
How many are living by their passions and desires and have not yet begun to wonder what it means to walk in the fruit of the Spirit

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
gentleness and self-control.
Gal 5:22-23

So if one is not demonstrating the fruit of the Spirit, how deep has the Holy Spirit entered into peoples lives, and how much is religious desire rather than spiritual reality?

LightLoveHope · Oct 23, 2018

BCsenior said:
I'd rather think about the Scriptures, thank you.

I hear this kind of idea a lot. The problem is scripture is there to be thought about, expounded and explored. Jesus's parables are stories to demonstrate relationships and how they work together. Without discussing these aspects the stories have no meaning.

A lot of bible teachers do not really understand scripture, they take the words as given and then expound their single understanding of them. I used to do this when I was a teenager. But now I see so many connections and implications, I see the value in exploration and seeing the interwoven tapestry that scripture represents, the living word of God.

So when Jesus goes to find the lost sheep, it means some sheep are lost but will not be found. If all the lost sheep were found, then repentance would not be a big thing and just inevitable for all.
Some actually believe this, that heaven is a warm fuzzy place that all will eventually enter. But then sinners do not wipe out millions of people, torture and disfigure others for pleasure or be quite happy to burn in hell with no regrets as well as hate God. God is not going to magically turn them into loving caring compassionate people of the Kingdom, because they have be given the right to dwell in evil if that is their choice, with all its consequences.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 23, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
"pastors leading multitude to hell"
I find this phrase interesting. The world is going to hell. Some believers believe once you come to faith you cannot ever go to hell.

The only reason they would believe this is because Jesus made that quite clear.

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. So, how can any recipient of eternal life ever perish?

So pastors within this thinking cannot be leading people to hell, because if they are not believers, that is where they are going.

Just to be clear, are you indicating that pastors that teach eternal security are not believers and are going to hell? Seems so.

So false teaching is missleading people into a false security that their sins are not resolved or repented of but their faith is enough to save

The Bible is clear that it is not one's faith that saves, but the work of Christ upon which people place their faith. We are saved by grace, through faith. Big difference.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 23, 2018

I said:
"Have you learned from Scripture that recipients of eternal life shall never perish?"

LightLoveHope said:
Hi Free,
If you propose a theological framework, you cannot then contradict it.

How does this statement relate to my statement? btw, I've not contradicted anything.

I see contradictions like this because it is how one resolves business processes by looking at what people say should happen and compare that with what does happen.

Since I have never even mentioned "business processes", your statement here is totally irrelevant. Please return to the discussion.

In this case it is saying false teaching is destructive, except if you believe that false
teaching has no effect on the saved or the lost, then there is nothing to complain
about or even warn about.

This makes no sense. What is your point here? Please re-phrase so as to be understandable.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
Eternal security is not found anywhere in the Bible.

Your unsolicited opinion is quite tiring. Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. He gave no conditions for recipients to meet or fulfill in order to not perish. But you just don't believe what Jesus said. That's on you.

The point is that one is eternally secure on the basis of what Jesus did, and NEVER on the basis of what we are required to do, once eternal life is given, which is when one believes.

Have you resolved your own internal conflict regarding WHEN one possesses eternal life yet?

This is a myth, promoted by corrupt Pastors to those who will tithe and give to have their ears tickled with lies.

I don't think it's very nice at all to claim that what Jesus teaches is a myth. Actually, that is blasphemy of the highest degree.

We are called to light and to love God by loving our brothers and sisters in Christ.

And we are commanded to believe all that Jesus says.

Those who hate their brothers are murderers and no longer have eternal life within them.

I've explained that verse many times. But you've done nothing to explain how my explanation cannot be true, nor how to reconcile John 10:28 with that verse.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

The word that keeps tripping you up is "abide". If John had NOT used that word, you would actually have a point. If he said, "no murderer has eternal life IN him", then it would be clear that anyone who murders does not possess eternal life.

But John didn't say that no murderer has eternal life in him. He said they don't have eternal life abiding in them. A big difference, but one that has obviously gone over your head. You lack spiritual discernment in a very big way.

Please present the scripture that teaches us a Christian is eternally secure in their salvation who hates his brother.

Done it many times.

Jesus said, and I quote: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." Jn 10:28

Now, this is what Je sus NEVER said: "I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY DON'T MURDER, they shall never perish."

Nor did He ever said: "I give them eternal life and IF THEY DON'T MURDER, they shall never perish."

What you cannot provide is ANY verse that actually says that salvation or eternal life can be lost/taken away/given away/forgeited, etc.

If you can’t then you are guilty of promoting a false doctrine in which you have transgressed the doctrine of Christ and are enticing God’s precious children away from Him by teaching them to do the same.

I've proven my case, unlike yourself.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
Amen.

That is my position.

Now just convince Freegrace.JLB

I'm convinced by Scripture. Unlike yourself.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 23, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
I hear this kind of idea a lot. The problem is scripture is there to be thought about, expounded and explored.

What an odd statement! There is no problem here at all. It's here to be understood.

JLB777 · Oct 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Your unsolicited opinion is quite tiring. Jesus taught that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. He gave no conditions for recipients to meet or fulfill in order to not perish. But you just don't believe what Jesus said. That's on you.

The point is that one is eternally secure on the basis of what Jesus did, and NEVER on the basis of what we are required to do, once eternal life is given, which is when one believes.

Have you resolved your own internal conflict regarding WHEN one possesses eternal life yet?

I don't think it's very nice at all to claim that what Jesus teaches is a myth. Actually, that is blasphemy of the highest degree.

And we are commanded to believe all that Jesus says.

I've explained that verse many times. But you've done nothing to explain how my explanation cannot be true, nor how to reconcile John 10:28 with that verse.

The word that keeps tripping you up is "abide". If John had NOT used that word, you would actually have a point. If he said, "no murderer has eternal life IN him", then it would be clear that anyone who murders does not possess eternal life.

But John didn't say that no murderer has eternal life in him. He said they don't have eternal life abiding in them. A big difference, but one that has obviously gone over your head. You lack spiritual discernment in a very big way.

Done it many times.

Jesus said, and I quote: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish." Jn 10:28

Now, this is what Je sus NEVER said: "I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY DON'T MURDER, they shall never perish."

Nor did He ever said: "I give them eternal life and IF THEY DON'T MURDER, they shall never perish."

What you cannot provide is ANY verse that actually says that salvation or eternal life can be lost/taken away/given away/forgeited, etc.

I've proven my case, unlike yourself.

You have proven absolutely nothing.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Please address the scripture I have presented, and refrain from attacking me.

How can a brother in Christ still have eternal life abiding in him, who hates his brother.

Please accompany your answer with scripture.

JLB

JLB777 · Oct 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm convinced by Scripture. Unlike yourself.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

That would be the end of OSAS!

JLB

LightLoveHope · Oct 23, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
And we are commanded to believe all that Jesus says.

This phrase is used as a phrase of rebellion and deafness.
Whenever Jesus commands to love, to do, to obey it is interpreted that He meant to believe in Him, which is just logical rubbish.

You notice the difference because when someone says we are commanded to love each other as Jesus loved us, the reply is just to believe Jesus.

They say Jesus said these things to Jews so we can ignore it, because it was said to just make them feel condemned, so they would be driven more to rely on the cross and His death and resurrection. The idea we are given a new heart which is healed, cleansed and capable of loving brothers and sisters in Christ is so far from their thinking it is like a alien world.

So when people say, I am a sheep of Christ, but I ignore His commands and what He tells me to do, they are lying, because Jesus said His sheep listen to Him and obey His commands, no excuses, no side steps, just obey.

So not wonder there is such spiritual emptiness from such as these who can only talk about security because that is literally all they have, or the delusion of security because Jesus will declare, I never knew you. Why am I so confident of this truth, because Jesus said that is what will happen with those who are evil doers, who claim great spiritual works yet do not build their house upon the rock and obey His life saving commands.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 23, 2018

JLB777 said:
You have proven absolutely nothing.

I have. You have no discernment.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

It's the word "abiding" that you seem to be totally incapable of discerning.

Like I just said in my previous post to you, if John had left that word OUT of the verse, you would have a point. But because he put that word IN, you don't. But you have no discernment to understand why the word is important and what it means.

In fact, it seems to me you don't want to know what it means.

Please address the scripture I have presented, and refrain from attacking me.

I already did, and clearly. Why don't you address my response?

How can a brother in Christ still have eternal life abiding in him, who hates his brother.

He doesn't. Pretty simple, really. But what John DIDN'T say was that those who hate their brother don't have internal life IN them. Now, that would support your theory.

But, if John had left out "abiding", then he would have been in direct opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

None of which you have been able to discern spiritually.

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