2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

FreeGrace2 · Oct 21, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Hi Free,

God bless you. I hope you have the fellowship of His grace.
My approach is always just to share my perspective, and see if I can encourage others to follow and walk with Jesus.

But you sure don't encourage others to believe all that Jesus says. And, in fact, your personal views are to NOT believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

There are many perspectives and emphasises believers have, and when we meet the Lord face to face they will become clear.

Absolutely! Many things are not crystal clear. But John 10:28 isn't one of those verses.

So to me it does not matter how well I know you or not. Jesus teaches us to be a light but not to get wrapped up in pointless disputes.

How is it pointless to defend exactly what Jesus said?

How do you not understand that your view is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus taught in John 10:28?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 21, 2018

BCsenior said:
IMO, Jesus taught Paul during those 14 years in the desert places to mix in his dire warnings (e.g. no OSAS) with copious edifications, exhortations, encouragements, etc. even though they certainly would cause disputes, divisions, etc. -- pointless or otherwise.

Can you please provide any evidence of any of the dire warnings to be about losing salvation?

And, after that, please explain why Jesus never included any warnings to recipients of eternal life that they CAN or MIGHT perish, if.....

Thanks.

BCsenior · Oct 21, 2018

FG2,
IMO, you fail at least 1 of the following 3
in John 10:27-28 ...
- hearing Jesus' voice,
- Him knowing (approving of) you
- following Jesus (includes obeying His commands)

BCsenior · Oct 21, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you please provide any evidence of any of the dire warnings to be about losing salvation?
And, after that, please explain why Jesus never included any warnings to recipients of eternal life that they CAN or MIGHT perish, if.....
Thanks.

I'm sorry to have to remind you that I have given
multitudes upon multitudes of these to thou a year ago
... to no avail.

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
But you sure don't encourage others to believe all that Jesus says. And, in fact, your personal views are to NOT believe what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life.

Absolutely! Many things are not crystal clear. But John 10:28 isn't one of those verses.

How is it pointless to defend exactly what Jesus said?

How do you not understand that your view is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus taught in John 10:28?

Hi Free,
I understand your emphasis, but you want to paint me as being in opposition to it.
It is like a football supporters club saying one type of shirt is not acceptable, only their one.

Praise the Lord that you follow Him, listen to His word and walk in obedience.
It reminds me of denominational divides of the past. I was in a United Reformed Church on Saturday talking to a Presbyterian about Calvanism and Armenianism. They had no clue what I was talking about. So we need people to understand the core issues of love and following, more than these highly analytical arguments over emphasis.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2018

BCsenior said:
FG2,
IMO, you fail at least 1 of the following 3
in John 10:27-28 ...
- hearing Jesus' voice,
- Him knowing (approving of) you
- following Jesus (includes obeying His commands)

You have the "right" or "authority" to "test" me? How arrogant!

First, I absolutely DO HEAR Jesus' voice. And I KNOW that He taught eternal security in v.28. It's those who believe that salvation can be lost that must be DEAF when Jesus speaks.

Second, I absolutely DO KNOW Him. And He KNOWS me. Who are you to determine who Jesus approves or not? And, btw, those who believe that salvation can be lost are NOT APPROVED by Jesus, because that view is in direct opposition to what He teaches.

Third, unless you are omniscient, and you are NOT, you have no ability to determine who, other than yourself, follows Jesus or not.

I recommend that you believe what Jesus said in John 10:28, which is the FACT that all recipients of eternal life (those who have believed) shall never perish.

Period.

Those who don't believe that are NOT listening to Him, and NOT believing Him, and NOT following Him.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2018

BCsenior said:
I'm sorry to have to remind you that I have given
multitudes upon multitudes of these to thou a year ago
... to no avail.

lol.

Apparently you have forgotten that I pointed out that NONE of the verses you shared say what you think they mean.

And, I showed you what those verses WERE speaking about. But.....to no avail.

And, IF any of those verses you shared DID actually warn about losing salvation, all you have done is prove that Jesus lied in John 10:28, because He SAID recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Hi Free,
I understand your emphasis, but you want to paint me as being in opposition to it.

You've made that quite clear. You don't believe that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

It is like a football supporters club saying one type of shirt is not acceptable, only their one.

There is no comparison between type of shirt and eternal security. How silly.

Praise the Lord that you follow Him, listen to His word and walk in obedience.
It reminds me of denominational divides of the past. I was in a United Reformed Church on Saturday talking to a Presbyterian about Calvanism and Armenianism. They had no clue what I was talking about. So we need people to understand the core issues of love and following, more than these highly analytical arguments over emphasis.

Let me ask you this: what is the basis for your sense of security?

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
You've made that quite clear. You don't believe that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

See here is the problem.
This is a many layered issue here.
All who have gained eternal life have not perished.
But one is only eternal if the Lord maintains ones life eternally and ones name is in the Lambs book of life.

Heb 6:4-6 paints the possibility of those who are 100% of the faith, yet fall away, are lost.

So two statements can be made that are true because they are talking about different groups. To avoid certain meanings of being a sheep from birth, ie predestined to eternity or predestined to judgement, people say goats, pigs and dogs turn into sheep.
But as an analogy, this is impossible.

Jesus talks about different flocks of sheep, sheep of Israel, and of others which is more relevant.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
Matt 10:16

Goats do not become sheep, it is the sheep who hear Jesus's voice.
But sheep can be lost, and not found, wander off and die.

As Jesus says if the sheep is found and restored

I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:7

People will always want to excuse sin and claim spiritual reality and its eternal nature, but then deny it by saying believers can go back to the world as if this does not matter.
Equally there are some who appear to be goats, wolves, pigs, dogs in their behaviour and intent. If everything is fluid, then who is of the faith and who is not, God could just make us all righteous, pure holy people against our will, and no one in hell. This is how absurd people get. And it is a form of universalism, claiming it is all in Gods hands and evil and sin can just be cleaned up, like cleaning a house, so no problems folks, its all just a bad dream.

The problem here is mixing Gods gift of life with our own internal struggles, and not admitting we both need to understand ourselves, our struggles and bend the knee in repentance and faith and literally follow Him. Without the following we are just empty sinners with a pipe dream.

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
It's those who believe that salvation can be lost that must be DEAF when Jesus speaks.

The above phrase is turned into a warrior call. Those who believe you can know Jesus and walk away, are "evil", "doomed to hell", "preaching from the pit", "denying Jesus".

And there is the problem. The fruit of this emphasis becomes ultimate destruction of anothers faith, though two believers believe the same things, literally, one will disown the other in the strongest terms over this idea, and then claim to love the people of God.

Jesus talks about judging things by their fruit. So this interpretation leads to aggression, judgmentalism, condemnation, thistles and thorns, so is false teaching and those who spread it false teachers.

I have read phrases of condemning sin as worthy of judgement and repentance as taking the beam out of anothers eye, while scripture and God condemns sin, and judges those who commit sin as sinners. Sinners need to change, mind and behaviour, their hearts and direction to follow Jesus and learn His ways. Anything else is a denial of Jesus and His victory.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2018

I said:
"You've made that quite clear. You don't believe that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish."

LightLoveHope said:
See here is the problem.
This is a many layered issue here.

No, see here. This is your problem. Eternal security is not a "many layered" issue.

All who have gained eternal life have not perished.

See here? Another problem of yours. Eternal life is possessed (present possession) WHEN one believes in Christ, per John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

And, Jesus was clear; recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Therefore, NO ONE who has received the gift of eternal life shall ever perish.

But one is only eternal if the Lord maintains ones life eternally and ones name is in the Lambs book of life.

This all occurs WHEN one believes in Christ. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5;11, 13.

Heb 6:4-6 paints the possibility of those who are 100% of the faith, yet fall away, are lost.

See here? Another problem of yours. The verses do NOT say anything about being "lost". Stop assuming what isn't stated.

So two statements can be made that are true because they are talking about different groups.

See here? Another problem of yours. The SAME GROUP.

To avoid certain meanings of being a sheep from birth, ie predestined to eternity or predestined to judgement, people say goats, pigs and dogs turn into sheep.

Please stop this Calvinistic nonsense.

No one is chosen to believe (the REAL meaning of Calvinistic election, which is totally unbiblical). But all who believe ARE CHOSEN to salvation.

Jesus talks about different flocks of sheep, sheep of Israel, and of others which is more relevant.

And all have different contexts. So please stop mixing apples and oranges.

Goats do not become sheep, it is the sheep who hear Jesus's voice.

Yes, which is the ONLY ISSUE in John 10:28. In John 10, Jesus' sheep are those who have believed. Per v.9, they have "entered through Him" who is the Gate.

But sheep can be lost, and not found, wander off and die.

Then what Jesus said about His sheep in John 10:28 has to be a LIE.

Why are you so comfortable with such blasphemy?

As Jesus says if the sheep is found and restored

Where did say anything like this? And NO where does the Bible speak of salvation being "restored".

I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:7

Do you not understand what repentance is?

People will always want to excuse sin and claim spiritual reality and its eternal nature, but then deny it by saying believers can go back to the world as if this does not matter.

And I've never ever said "this does not matter", so let's just quit bringing up what idiots have said to you.

The problem here is mixing Gods gift of life with our own internal struggles, and not admitting we both need to understand ourselves, our struggles and bend the knee in repentance and faith and literally follow Him. Without the following we are just empty sinners with a pipe dream.

Your posts are full of words that really have no meaning at all.

And you've yet to provide any verses that support your claims.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2018

I said:
"It's those who believe that salvation can be lost that must be DEAF when Jesus speaks."

LightLoveHope said:
The above phrase is turned into a warrior call.

By whom? Not by me. What I said is true. There is no excuse to believe that salvation can be lost.

Those who believe you can know Jesus and walk away, are "evil", "doomed to hell", "preaching from the pit", "denying Jesus".

Here's what I've actually said. Those who believe salvation can be lost are DENYING what Jesus said. Not the rest of this nonsense.

And there is the problem. The fruit of this emphasis becomes ultimate destruction of anothers faith, though two believers believe the same things, literally, one will disown the other in the strongest terms over this idea, and then claim to love the people of God.

So, who's disowning whom here? I've not disowned you. In any sense.

Jesus talks about judging things by their fruit. So this interpretation leads to aggression, judgmentalism, condemnation, thistles and thorns, so is false teaching and those who spread it false teachers.

You seem to have quite an imagination, if you think the biblical teaching of eternal security leads to all of this stuff.

I have read phrases of condemning sin as worthy of judgement and repentance as taking the beam out of anothers eye, while scripture and God condemns sin, and judges those who commit sin as sinners.

And?

Sinners need to change, mind and behaviour, their hearts and direction to follow Jesus and learn His ways. Anything else is a denial of Jesus and His victory.

If you want to really stop denying Jesus, then believe what He so clearly taught in John 10:28 and quit believing that salvation can be lost.

I'm just amazed that any believer can continue to believe that salvation can be lost after being shown John 10:28, which doesn't allow for such an idea.

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"It's those who believe that salvation can be lost that must be DEAF when Jesus speaks."

Hi free,

Unfortunately restating your position does not add anything other than what has already been shared. I am commenting on what has been said to me over 3 years of discussing with different people who wanted to believe no matter how they behaved it did not affect their status with God.

They openly declared how they behaved had no relevance. I was surprised. But if you have never really seen sin and where it leads, you will declare minor faults as nothing before God, why would He send you to hell, when basically you are ok, and you believe Jesus is your saviour.

They lie very easily, declaring God cares about every sin deeply and so do they, but it is the flesh that drives them there and only hypocrites deny one could even walk in holiness, righteousness and purity. Repentance in this world is just changing your mind the Jesus was a good man, a saviour, and that all that is required, no change of behaviour or renouncing sin, or feeling any remorse of grief or brokenness.

Some were more sophisticated. They hated sin, but could not stop it, but Jesus's blood meant God did not see it. They went on to describe how in the very act of sinning they were forgiven. I still have no clue how a sane person can talk or suggest things like this.

We live in a world of action and reaction, and sins are actions. It is these actions that cause failure and the price of death. But they have abstracted life to the degree that it is all theoretical, and heaven is a banking transaction with the Father and the Son, that could have happened anywhere in eternity.

Now Free, if you want to hold to theology this group push till their last breadth, fine, but it leads to the end of their faith and sanity. They are why I also reject their position, because their fruit is sin and destruction.

BCsenior · Oct 22, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
... different people who wanted to believe no matter how they behaved it did not affect their status with God.

You people should read what the Father and Jesus
are saying to Their prophets and watchmen these days
... about the pastors and their sheep!
Very condemning indeed.
Here's just a little snippet ...
"pastors leading multitude to hell".

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

BCsenior said:
You people should read what the Father and Jesus
are saying to Their prophets and watchmen these days
... about the pastors and their sheep!
Very condemning indeed.
Here's just a little snippet ...
"pastors leading multitude to hell".

"You people" - who are you addressing.
The Father and Jesus are saying these days?
Are you proclaiming a prophetic word here, which if you are needs to be tested?

And it is true sinners who sin are due for judgement, whether those who claim to
know the Lord or not.

Are you talking about judgement for sin, or judgement about false teaching?

What I do know from scripture Jesus, the Father and the prophets warned that sin
leads to judgement, but repentance and faith leads to life. I trust this is what you
mean.

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus. Acts 3:19

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
Hi free,

Unfortunately restating your position does not add anything other than what has already been shared. I am commenting on what has been said to me over 3 years of discussing with different people who wanted to believe no matter how they behaved it did not affect their status with God.

Those are idiots then. One's state with God is always affected by what His children do. But nothing anyone can do ends the relationship, any more than one can cease to be the offspring of their parents. Not possible.

They openly declared how they behaved had no relevance.

Again, idiots. They were never taught, or, worse, rejected the biblical teaching of God's divine discipline (which is painful, per Heb 12:11).

Now Free, if you want to hold to theology this group push till their last breadth, fine, but it leads to the end of their faith and sanity.

I'm NOT "holding to the theology" of those idiots. They are just quite ignorant of what God's Word really says.

They are why I also reject their position, because their fruit is sin and destruction.

Well, that's rather idiotic as well, since I've proven from Scripture that there are NO CONDITIONS between receiving eternal life and never perishing in John 10:28.

So quit trying to make Jesus a liar by believing that there ARE conditions between receiving eternal life and never perishing.

If there were conditions to meet, Jesus would have HAD TO list them in John 10:28.

The fact that there are no conditions shows that once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. Exactly what Jesus said, and arminians reject.

As for all those idiots that you seem so affected by, why not just reject their idiotic ideas, but BELIEVE what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life?

What's so wrong about that?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2018

BCsenior said:
You people should read what the Father and Jesus
are saying to Their prophets and watchmen these days
... about the pastors and their sheep!
Very condemning indeed.
Here's just a little snippet ...
"pastors leading multitude to hell".

False teachers do that every day. So what's new?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 22, 2018

LightLoveHope said:
What I do know from scripture Jesus, the Father and the prophets warned that sin
leads to judgement, but repentance and faith leads to life. I trust this is what you
mean.

Have you learned from Scripture that recipients of eternal life shall never perish?

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

BCsenior said:
You people should read what the Father and Jesus
are saying to Their prophets and watchmen these days
... about the pastors and their sheep!
Very condemning indeed.
Here's just a little snippet ...
"pastors leading multitude to hell".

"pastors leading multitude to hell"
I find this phrase interesting. The world is going to hell. Some believers believe once you
come to faith you cannot ever go to hell. So pastors within this thinking cannot be leading
people to hell, because if they are not believers, that is where they are going.

The opposite is saying teaching is leading people to hell, but again this is not possible.
So the whole phrase only works on the basis that people can lose their salvation.

So false teaching is missleading people into a false security that their sins are not resolved or repented of but their faith is enough to save, though it is just buying a religious ticket into heaven while claiming they are not religious at all, but relationship based. Ironic, but then deception always works like this.

LightLoveHope · Oct 22, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Have you learned from Scripture that recipients of eternal life shall never perish?

Hi Free,
If you propose a theological framework, you cannot then contradict it.
I see contradictions like this because it is how one resolves business processes by
looking at what people say should happen and compare that with what does happen.

In this case it is saying false teaching is destructive, except if you believe that false
teaching has no effect on the saved or the lost, then there is nothing to complain
about or even warn about.

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

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