2 questions on subjects I don't understand

[Dave RP]

1. Why would God, who made everything chose one group of people, the Jews to be his "chosen" group?
2. Why would God be so interested in if people "sin"

 

[joinfree]

1. Why would God, who made everything chose one group of people, the Jews to be his "chosen" group?
2. Why would God be so interested in if people "sin"

1. Ask Him in prayer, 2. the people are not the demons: there is still hope.

 

[Daniel9v9]

1. Why would God, who made everything chose one group of people, the Jews to be his "chosen" group?
2. Why would God be so interested in if people "sin"

Good questions
I'll try and be as concise as I can:

1. Israel wasn't originally a chosen people, but a chosen man: Abraham (his descendant Jacob was given the name Israel and from him comes the nation). Through him, by grace, God made a promise of salvation for all who believe; that all nations will be blessed through him. Jesus Christ is the culmination of this promise. When Scripture talks about Israel being a chosen people, it really points to that through Israel, all who believe will be forgiven, saved and find adoptionship in God. There are many other layers to this, but this is the main point: God's gracious promise of salvation; a free gift for all who believe.

2. You could think of sin as "faulty" or "not by design". Put short, sin is anything that is contrary to God. God is good and holy, and He is the source of love and all things good. Anything contrary to God and His nature is evil and is sin. This can be difficult to appreciate through mere reasoning as we are bent on sin and rebellion, but all of mankind are evil and only God is good. Because God is good, He punish evil. However, because He is also merciful, He took our punishment for us, by dying for us in the person of Jesus Christ. In other words, God makes us aware of our sins that we may understand the severity of our offenses and learn of God's love and mercy for all who believes in His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Israel wasn't originally a chosen people, but a chosen man: Abraham

Why didn't God choose Aussies instead ? The landscape is more beautiful for one.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[CrystalDragon]

Good questions
I'll try and be as concise as I can:

1. Israel wasn't originally a chosen people, but a chosen man: Abraham (his descendant Jacob was given the name Israel and from him comes the nation). Through him, by grace, God made a promise of salvation for all who believe; that all nations will be blessed through him. Jesus Christ is the culmination of this promise. When Scripture talks about Israel being a chosen people, it really points to that through Israel, all who believe will be forgiven, saved and find adoptionship in God. There are many other layers to this, but this is the main point: God's gracious promise of salvation; a free gift for all who believe.

2. You could think of sin as "faulty" or "not by design". Put short, sin is anything that is contrary to God. God is good and holy, and He is the source of love and all things good. Anything contrary to God and His nature is evil and is sin. This can be difficult to appreciate through mere reasoning as we are bent on sin and rebellion, but all of mankind are evil and only God is good. Because God is good, He punish evil. However, because He is also merciful, He took our punishment for us, by dying for us in the person of Jesus Christ. In other words, God makes us aware of our sins that we may understand the severity of our offenses and learn of God's love and mercy for all who believes in His Son Jesus Christ.

I wonder about the Old Testament though, he was the source of all good and all evil then.

 

[JoeP222w]

1. Why would God, who made everything chose one group of people, the Jews to be his "chosen" group?
2. Why would God be so interested in if people "sin"

1. It is His sovereign right as Creator.

Romans 9:15-23 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

2. Again, it is His sovereign right as Creator to hold His creation accountable to Him, and for Him to set the standard of perfection.

 

[Dave RP]

Good questions
I'll try and be as concise as I can:

1. Israel wasn't originally a chosen people, but a chosen man: Abraham (his descendant Jacob was given the name Israel and from him comes the nation). Through him, by grace, God made a promise of salvation for all who believe; that all nations will be blessed through him. Jesus Christ is the culmination of this promise. When Scripture talks about Israel being a chosen people, it really points to that through Israel, all who believe will be forgiven, saved and find adoptionship in God. There are many other layers to this, but this is the main point: God's gracious promise of salvation; a free gift for all who believe.

2. You could think of sin as "faulty" or "not by design". Put short, sin is anything that is contrary to God. God is good and holy, and He is the source of love and all things good. Anything contrary to God and His nature is evil and is sin. This can be difficult to appreciate through mere reasoning as we are bent on sin and rebellion, but all of mankind are evil and only God is good. Because God is good, He punish evil. However, because He is also merciful, He took our punishment for us, by dying for us in the person of Jesus Christ. In other words, God makes us aware of our sins that we may understand the severity of our offenses and learn of God's love and mercy for all who believes in His Son Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the response.

On the Israel thing, I still don't get it, if salvation is for all then Israel is irrelevant and they cannot be the "chosen" people, they are just one tribe like any other.

On the sin thing, if every person sins then why make such a fuss about it, I'm only mentioning that because my partner is getting some stick from her church for dating me, but given everyone is a sinner why should this be important?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Serving Zion]

Thanks for the response.

On the Israel thing, I still don't get it, if salvation is for all then Israel is irrelevant and they cannot be the "chosen" people, they are just one tribe like any other.

This is pretty much the result we have, seeing they rejected Messiah (Romans 9:8, Ephesians 2:11-18, especially Ephesians 2:13 as it goes with Matthew 27:25).

Of course, there is still a genetic pool of descendants of Jacob who do not take Jesus to be Messiah, yet found their faith upon teachings of the Hebraic Scriptures. I do not suppose this will continue forever, because there is prophecy yet to be fulfilled that will eventually leave them no option but to receive Him.

On the sin thing, if every person sins then why make such a fuss about it, I'm only mentioning that because my partner is getting some stick from her church for dating me, but given everyone is a sinner why should this be important?

Simply, "sin" is by definition, the doing of things which makes us liable for guilt. Take this definition by St. James:

Whoever knows the good he should do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

.. Does this mean that a person who always does the good he knows he should do, will never do any harm? Not necessarily, because innocent mistakes can still happen. But if an innocent mistake is made, then that one is genuinely remorseful.

However, when someone does wrong when they know they should do right, then the harm they have done is condemned by their conscience. It results in a defensiveness or deceit in order that they should escape the condemnation of the truth. This creates a world where people are not fully honest and open about who they are and what they have done.

St. Paul remarks about this: "I was alive once, apart from the law. But, when the command came, sin came alive and I died".

He is describing how a child is free in their conscience because they live innocently. If they do a bad thing, they are still learning of the rules for orderly moral conduct, and people readily forgive them even if they have caused grief, on account of their ignorance and good conscience. Not so when we become grown-ups and we do those things that we know are indeed sinful! Grown-ups are not so easily forgiven! (Hence John 3:3 and Matthew 18:3).

About your partner, it is like this: when a person becomes aware of the good they do and does not do it, then they are choosing to live willingly against their conscience. When it is in fact The Holy Spirit who teaches us the good we should do (eg: sex before marriage), and we choose to live contrary to the morality He has taught us, then we are choosing to disobey The Holy Spirit.

If such a person continues to call themself a Christian and to talk about God as though they are of good Christian specimen, then they are not representing The Holy Spirit in His fullness.

It is not good for a Christian to disobey God. I wonder though whether this is the problem, or whether it is an unhealthy church that rather persecutes and judges you as being inferior, because you are atheist, but not necessarily because you are disobedient to The Holy Spirit. What are your thoughts about that?

 

[Dave RP]

This is pretty much the result we have, seeing they rejected Messiah (Romans 9:8, Ephesians 2:11-18, especially Ephesians 2:13 as it goes with Matthew 27:25).

Of course, there is still a genetic pool of descendants of Jacob who do not take Jesus to be Messiah, yet found their faith upon teachings of the Hebraic Scriptures. I do not suppose this will continue forever, because there is prophecy yet to be fulfilled that will eventually leave them no option but to receive Him.

Simply, "sin" is by definition, the doing of things which makes us liable for guilt. Take this definition by St. James:

Whoever knows the good he should do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

.. Does this mean that a person who always does the good he knows he should do, will never do any harm? Not necessarily, because innocent mistakes can still happen. But if an innocent mistake is made, then that one is genuinely remorseful.

However, when someone does wrong when they know they should do right, then the harm they have done is condemned by their conscience. It results in a defensiveness or deceit in order that they should escape the condemnation of the truth. This creates a world where people are not fully honest and open about who they are and what they have done.

St. Paul remarks about this: "I was alive once, apart from the law. But, when the command came, sin came alive and I died".

He is describing how a child is free in their conscience because they live innocently. If they do a bad thing, they are still learning of the rules for orderly moral conduct, and people readily forgive them even if they have caused grief, on account of their ignorance and good conscience. Not so when we become grown-ups and we do those things that we know are indeed sinful! Grown-ups are not so easily forgiven! (Hence John 3:3 and Matthew 18:3).

About your partner, it is like this: when a person becomes aware of the good they do and does not do it, then they are choosing to live willingly against their conscience. When it is in fact The Holy Spirit who teaches us the good we should do (eg: sex before marriage), and we choose to live contrary to the morality He has taught us, then we are choosing to disobey The Holy Spirit.

If such a person continues to call themself a Christian and to talk about God as though they are of good Christian specimen, then they are not representing The Holy Spirit in His fullness.

It is not good for a Christian to disobey God. I wonder though whether this is the problem, or whether it is an unhealthy church that rather persecutes and judges you as being inferior, because you are atheist, but not necessarily because you are disobedient to The Holy Spirit. What are your thoughts about that?

Her Church seems to be very strict in comparison to other Church of England congregations, so they tend to be very judgemental. Her mothers Church for example seems more relaxed and understanding about how relationships work in the 21st century, and her sister in law is an Ordained Vicar and she is supportive of our relationship. Of course as a non believer I find it all a little bizarre, my partner is a regular church going Christian, she reads the Bible regularly, she supports her church yet she seems by some to be judged for falling for the "wrong" person.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Thanks for the response.

On the Israel thing, I still don't get it, if salvation is for all then Israel is irrelevant and they cannot be the "chosen" people, they are just one tribe like any other.

On the sin thing, if every person sins then why make such a fuss about it, I'm only mentioning that because my partner is getting some stick from her church for dating me, but given everyone is a sinner why should this be important?

Yeah, it can be confusing

The nation of Israel foreshadowed and came with the promise of Christ. The Church, however, is a part of the fulfillment of the promise, through Christ; so the Church is the new Israel. So, the country of Israel today can be understood in two ways:
1. They are chosen by God in the sense that they were given the Torah and the promise of the Messiah.
2. They are not any more chosen than any other country or tribe, for Israel is not understood as a physical country, but a body of believers in Jesus Christ.

Another factor of Israel as a chosen nation has to do with God's self-revelation. It's the amazing and incomprehensible act of God, whereby He revealed himself in humility, born a lowly man of a lowly tribe.

Sin is very difficult to understand on account of it being a spiritual matter and not practical. In other words, I don't think anyone can appreciate the gravity of sin from a purely academic point of view.
However, sin is crucial to everyone, whether we understand it or not. To sin means to willingly rebel against God; to do evil. It may not seem like a big deal, even for Christians, but in reality it's heaping abuse on things we don't understand. Sin is a very severe offense, worthy of a very severe punishment. This ultimate punishment is an eternal separation from God. That is, an existence entirely void of God, who is the source of love, goodness, kindess, mercy, patience and holiness. However, the good news is that believing in Jesus Christ, there will be life and no condemnation. Again, life in Christ is a free gift, by God's grace, apprehended by faith.

This is very wordy, sorry, but I feel it's important to make an effort to establish the severity of sin, in order to get a better understanding of your situation (from the Christian perspective). I think, perhaps, the root of the issue the church is having with your girlfriend, is not so much about whether there is sin or not, but about her (and your) spiritual welfare. The concern is not out of malice or self-righteousnesses, but love. Also, practically speaking, it's not always easy being together with someone when your world views are radically different, and there are many implications that comes out of that, but it's not really for me to judge

 

[Desk trauma]

1. Why would God, who made everything chose one group of people, the Jews to be his "chosen" group?

Because the God that Christians worship is their tribal deity.

 

[Dave RP]

Yeah, it can be confusing

The nation of Israel foreshadowed and came with the promise of Christ. The Church, however, is a part of the fulfillment of the promise, through Christ; so the Church is the new Israel. So, the country of Israel today can be understood in two ways:
1. They are chosen by God in the sense that they were given the Torah and the promise of the Messiah.
2. They are not any more chosen than any other country or tribe, for Israel is not understood as a physical country, but a body of believers in Jesus Christ.

Another factor of Israel as a chosen nation has to do with God's self-revelation. It's the amazing and incomprehensible act of God, whereby He revealed himself in humility, born a lowly man of a lowly tribe.

Sin is very difficult to understand on account of it being a spiritual matter and not practical. In other words, I don't think anyone can appreciate the gravity of sin from a purely academic point of view.
However, sin is crucial to everyone, whether we understand it or not. To sin means to willingly rebel against God; to do evil. It may not seem like a big deal, even for Christians, but in reality it's heaping abuse on things we don't understand. Sin is a very severe offense, worthy of a very severe punishment. This ultimate punishment is an eternal separation from God. That is, an existence entirely void of God, who is the source of love, goodness, kindess, mercy, patience and holiness. However, the good news is that believing in Jesus Christ, there will be life and no condemnation. Again, life in Christ is a free gift, by God's grace, apprehended by faith.

This is very wordy, sorry, but I feel it's important to make an effort to establish the severity of sin, in order to get a better understanding of your situation (from the Christian perspective). I think, perhaps, the root of the issue the church is having with your girlfriend, is not so much about whether there is sin or not, but about her (and your) spiritual welfare. The concern is not out of malice or self-righteousnesses, but love. Also, practically speaking, it's not always easy being together with someone when your world views are radically different, and there are many implications that comes out of that, but it's not really for me to judge

Thanks very much for the explanation. Appreciated.

David

 

[Cearbhall]

1. Why would God, who made everything chose one group of people, the Jews to be his "chosen" group?

Imagine my surprise when I got old enough to learn about certain things and realized how literally some people still take this...

 

[Adstar]

1. Why would God, who made everything chose one group of people, the Jews to be his "chosen" group?

Abraham lived in the geological centre of the world, at the crossroads of the major European African and Asian Land mass adjacent to the Mediterranean sea .. It is logical for God to select a person from that area to be the ancestor of a people who he would reveal His will through. The message would be started in the most opportune position on earth. People make the mistake of thinking God selected the Jews because they where somehow better then other people. The Bible reveals they where not. The Hebrews served Gods purpose at the time.. And where an example to the world..

2. Why would God be so interested in if people "sin"

To Redeem them,, They where His creation, so God wants his creation to be a success. right..

 

[Daniel9v9]

Thanks very much for the explanation. Appreciated.

David

No problem. Apologies for the wall of text!

 

[ananda]

1. Why would God, who made everything chose one group of people, the Jews to be his "chosen" group?
2. Why would God be so interested in if people "sin"

1. I can discern no reason for an allegedly infinite, eternal, omnimax deity to choose a particular people group/priesthood/prophets or any other form of intermediary;
2. An interested deity cannot be omnimax.

 

[LoveMyGod]

1. Seems to be covered pretty well, so I don't have much to add.
2. In my opinion, sin exists as a means to determine one thing. Love. God is love and he uses sin to find out who truly loves him. God could have easily created the garden of Eden without the restrictions. He could have placed guards around the tree to prevent man and woman from sinning, but that was not his intention. He had a plan and it is one that we cannot see without looking through the entire work of the scriptures. He used sin to bring death and allowed Satan to establish dominion on Earth. Through that sin he was able to build a nation and then through that nation he was able to send his son to Earth. That son, Jesus, died for not for one nation, but for all people so that the sin of our forefathers could be cleaned. Jesus has now taken the sting out of death and allowed both Jew and Gentile a clear path to heaven.

I look at it like God is the author of creation. When you are writing a story, you usually write the ending first because you need to know where you are going. God allowed sin to enter mankind because he has seen the end and he knows who wins. The ones who will be standing with him are those that recognized the sin in there lives, repented, and turned to God.