2 issues raised with sad story of an ex-preacher

[joey_downunder]

"JERRY deWitt ''came out'' a few months ago. It cost him his job, and nearly his house, but he could not be happier because he feels he has regained his integrity.
DeWitt was a Christian minister who stopped believing, and could not abide the hypocrisy in the pulpit. His story emerged at the Global Atheist Convention in Melbourne yesterday through his friend and fellow former pastor, Dan Barker, founder of an online support group for clergy who have lost their faith....."
Read more: Ex-pastor's helping hand for colleagues losing faith

I wish they explained WHY he stopped believing. At least he was honest enough to give up the job. I know it's only a newspaper article not a journal but it raises a lot of questions.

How does someone who claimed to be a christian, even became a preacher (and therefore would know the theology) lose their faith like that? The blog entry on apostasy is a good one.

------
The subject tacked on at the end is another good one. They should do a whole article on that!

Julia Gillard is being condemned by atheists for not being a good representative of atheism because she hasn't divided church and state enough. With that statement is that ethicist admitting atheism's a faith because it wanted Gillard to be a good evangelist for their cause and she has failed?

 

[Born to Watch]

I know of some people who have gone in to ministry simply for the prestige and acknowledgement of the position.
Family, social and educational reasons direct some in to ministry as well. Not a true desire to serve God and his people. From what I have heard, theology was an easy course to study at a degree level so it was an easy option for lazy students. Dont know how valid that comment is though.
Not suprised by the story, the church has become lukewarm and there are a lot of heresys being taught. A lot of greedy churches and Christians.

Funny that an ex Pastor is saying the reason he left was hypocrisy, yet he was in the pulpit?
"DeWitt was a Christian minister who stopped believing,
and could not abide the hypocrisy in the pulpit."
I am inclined to think it was his hypocrisy in the pulpit that was questionable, yet they elude to something else.
If the church members didnt pick the problems up before he left, does that reflect on the church he was at?

 

[Non sequitur]

"JERRY deWitt ''came out'' a few months ago. It cost him his job, and nearly his house, but he could not be happier because he feels he has regained his integrity.
DeWitt was a Christian minister who stopped believing, and could not abide the hypocrisy in the pulpit. His story emerged at the Global Atheist Convention in Melbourne yesterday through his friend and fellow former pastor, Dan Barker, founder of an online support group for clergy who have lost their faith....."
Read more: Ex-pastor's helping hand for colleagues losing faith

I wish they explained WHY he stopped believing. At least he was honest enough to give up the job. I know it's only a newspaper article not a journal but it raises a lot of questions.

How does someone who claimed to be a christian, even became a preacher (and therefore would know the theology) lose their faith like that? The blog entry on apostasy is a good one.

The answer would be the same for: How does someone who has a strong opinion on something, change their opinion?

Knowing the theology doesn't make things concrete, and circular reasoning and begging the question doesn't either.

The subject tacked on at the end is another good one. They should do a whole article on that!

Julia Gillard is being condemned by atheists for not being a good representative of atheism because she hasn't divided church and state enough. With that statement is that ethicist admitting atheism's a faith because it wanted Gillard to be a good evangelist for their cause and she has failed?

Er, no.

That still doesn't make atheism a faith.

 

[joey_downunder]

I couldn't imagine anyone going into church ministry these days without having a genuine desire to do it with all the anti-christian rhetoric and general negativity towards the church these days. Although if these ex-christians were brought up in very religious families they may have believed they had genuine faith when they had only absorbed the culture very well.

If theology is considered easy then there is something wrong with the theology education system. The more I learn about the Christian faith the deeper it all seems.

I am also curious what factors like denomination, pay, church size affected his decision on WHEN to leave. There are too many unanswered questions with that article.

Did you know some countries now tolerate atheist pastors? Dutch church decides not to discipline atheist pastor Incredible - that should be an oxymoron but it's true.

Who knows maybe here some liberal Australian churches like the Uniting Church will knowingly do the same, or even doing that right now but they're keeping it secret. It would explain some spiritually dead churches here if the pastors/ministers are actually atheists/agnostics like that pastor who "came out".

 

[joey_downunder]

The answer would be the same for: How does someone who has a strong opinion on something, change their opinion?

There's a big difference between faith and opinion - any born-again christian can testify to that

Knowing the theology doesn't make things concrete, and circular reasoning and begging the question doesn't either.

The bible agrees with you there -knowledge doesn't automatically produce saving faith.
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! (James 2:19)

That still doesn't make atheism a faith

A person whinging that Gillard is a poor evangelist for Atheism (note capital) is a sign that they have faith Atheism is the correct (non?) belief system and everyone else is wrong...

 

[HakeemSupreme]

A person whinging that Gillard is a poor evangelist for Atheism (note capital) is a sign that they have faith Atheism is the correct (non?) belief system and everyone else is wrong...

No.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

A person whinging that Gillard is a poor evangelist for Atheism (note capital) is a sign that they have faith Atheism is the correct (non?) belief system and everyone else is wrong...

Why did you capitalise atheism?

The actual paragraph reads:

Melbourne ethicist Leslie Cannold said Prime Minister Julia Gillard, an atheist, had done enormous damage to the atheist cause, failing to advance separation of church and state

Note the word cause, not faith or belief.

 

[Non sequitur]

There's a big difference between faith and opinion - any born-again christian can testify to that

The same reasons apply. You find compelling reasons to not have that faith in faith.

Otherwise, faith is insular. And it's illogical to say you can't ever accept it being faulty, because it's faultless.

Circular.

A person whinging that Gillard is a poor evangelist for Atheism (note capital) is a sign that they have faith Atheism is the correct (non?) belief system and everyone else is wrong...

If atheism lacks belief in gods and someone that chooses to "represent" atheism does something opposite of what one would expect someone who lacks beliefs does, you would naturally be opposed to what they are doing.

It could be said that they might be misrepresenting the (atheist) cause.

But it doesn't establish anything as a faith, in the traditional sense of the word, because it's not a faith.

 

[Born to Watch]

Atheism believes there is no God/s
Its a faith, its circular reasoning you have no evidence. Call yourself an agnostic then.
Sheesh

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Atheism believes there is no God/s
Its a faith, its circular reasoning you have no evidence. Call yourself an agnostic then.
Sheesh

Belief and faith are not the same. Belief is relative and can change, faith is absolute.

 

[Born to Watch]

Measure it for me BB
Quantify it, oh ye of little faith

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Measure it for me BB
Quantify it, oh ye of little faith

About 8.5km, door to door. Why do you want to know? And what relevance to this thread?

 

[joey_downunder]

Back to topic.....
Since atheists/agnostics are online now:
Have you or someone you have known once been a "genuine" christian (not just church attender) like that pastor but later became an atheist or a believer of another religion e.g. Muslim, Mormon, Hindu?
If yes, what made that happen?

 

[Born to Watch]

They are the same as I see it.
I dont see your point

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Back to topic.....
Since atheists/agnostics are online now:
Have you or someone you have known once been a "genuine" christian (not just church attender) like that pastor but later became an atheist or a believer?
If yes, what made that happen?

When I was younger I had a very strong faith. I explored the possibility of becoming missionary. What happened? I read the bible with my eyes and mind open. Really open in a questioning sort of way. I found too many contradictions, too many articles of faith that aren't (in my opinion) supportable, too many dodgy translations. Basically too much that points to the work of man and not any divine influence. I also asked the same questions of my religion that I asked of other religions - after all, my religion was right and all others wrong, wasn't it? That raised too many unanswerable questions which really point to the god of the bible being non-existent.

 

[joey_downunder]

Did you have anyone available to answer your questions properly? (I think I have heard of ex-believers saying that they were given pat answers that didn't help at all).

Now we all have the internet have you found any christian apologetics websites that have answered your questions?

 

[Humble Pie]

I don't know about this former preacher, he's probably a nice guy but a lot of people resign from their jobs when they're threatened with the sack. These humiliating situations are hard to talk about so it's easier to invent some excuse as to why you left a job.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Did you have anyone available to answer your questions properly? (I think I have heard of ex-believers saying that they were given pat answers that didn't help at all).

Now we all have the internet have you found any christian apologetics websites that have answered your questions?

I spent many hours talking with a lot of people who you'd expect to be able to help. For much of the time the answers really came down to "that's a matter of faith" because that's all there really is!

Not found an apologetics site that has any worthwhile answers - they all seem to come back to "if you believe then here's the answer, if you don;t believe then you're missing something" .

My parents are still upset and pray for me every day. While they were here recently my dad gave me Tim Keller's "Reason for God" which I duly read. He thinks it's a very compelling book. I thought it was dreadful and can pick a million holes in it. That really sums up the problem - believers can convince other believers they are right but they can't provide decent answers for non-believers.

 

[joey_downunder]

Humble Pie yes you have to take his word for it. It would be interesting to find out if he resigned out of the blue or if he was pushed to resign when he was found out.

 

[joey_downunder]

What type of apologetics sites have you visited? There some very ordinary ones out there I am afraid, obviously made for believers not seekers.