2 + 2 =....

[caitsey]

Hey, I'm in the midst of studying for my Philosophy exam tomorrow... and I came across a good question (that all you Phil buffs probably have questioned before, but bah, I haven't! lol)
Anyways...

Does God have the power to make 2 + 2 = 5?

Because of my beliefs I'm tempted to say 'yes' right away, but with further thought...I have trouble backing that answer up. Hmm....

 

[Tinker Grey]

Only if we change the definition of the terms "2" or "5" and any other terms necessary to make a consistent mathematical system.

 

[BrownCoat]

2+2=4 is itself an artificial construct used to designate that we have "2" of any object.

We could use 2D to refer to DD and 3D to refer to DDD. Or we could use 2D to refer to DDD and 3D to refer to DDD. It's all because mathematics is a social construct.

It's like D is used to represent a sound in the language. That character could just as well be G.

As long as the mathematics are conistent, it doesn't matter.

 

[FreezBee]

Does God have the power to make 2 + 2 = 5?

He has the power alright, but he also has the will to not use that power.


cheers

- FreezBee

 

[tel0004]

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/generic/60f5/

 

[leia]

He has the power alright, but he also has the will to not use that power.


cheers

- FreezBee

God is math. You are asking whether God can sin.

leia

 

[FreezBee]

God is math. You are asking whether God can sin.

I recall that somebody has stated that God created the whole numbers, but everything else is the works of humans. I don't recall who it was, but I suppose that is of less importance

If God is math, and math wills 2+2 to be 5, the it's a sin, even for God, to will 2+2 to be anything else. Is that, what you mean. leia?

Anyway, I happen to live in a country (Denmark), where the vat is 25%, so in a manner of speaking 2+2 is 5 here around.


cheers

- FreezBee

 

[Oidhche]

I recall that somebody has stated that God created the whole numbers, but everything else is the works of humans. I don't recall who it was, but I suppose that is of less importance

In that case he hasn't overworked himself, has he? We had to do all the difficult work and invent rational numbers, real numbers, complex numbers...

 

[The-Doctor]

according to logic and math 2 plus 2 equal 4 unless we intend to turn math on its head and redefine numbers.

 

[Casstranquility]

Hey, I'm in the midst of studying for my Philosophy exam tomorrow... and I came across a good question (that all you Phil buffs probably have questioned before, but bah, I haven't! lol)
Anyways...

Does God have the power to make 2 + 2 = 5?

Because of my beliefs I'm tempted to say 'yes' right away, but with further thought...I have trouble backing that answer up. Hmm....

Yes, yes, yes! If 1 + 1 can equal 3, why can't 2 + 2 = 5? And God is all powerful, so it couldn't be beyond Her power. The numbers could represent groups!

 

[psychedelicist]

In euclidean math, no thing or person could make 2+2=5, for the same reason one couldn't create a square circle.

However, euclidean math is not some kind of absolute math, it is more relatable to a language. Anyone can make up a language any time they want. The usefulness or coherence of this language might not be so great, but it would still be 'valid'. Like language, anyone can make up a system of math, and it will still be just as 'valid', if not much less useful, than euclid's version.

Once this system is created, however, one cannot do something outside the boundaries of that system. It would be like a computer acting in a way it was not programmed, it simply isn't possible. That's not to say that you or god could not come up with a different math system in which 2+2=5, but you would have to redefine the meanings of 2, 5, +, and = to do so.

But as to whether anyone, god or otherwise, could make 2+2=5 within the boundaries of euclidean math, no. Outside those boundaries, anyone could make anything equal whatever they wanted.

 

[caitsey]

haha, okay I knew the redefining numbers thing would come up. But that always brings me back to the number '0', is that humanly defined as well?

I don't know if it's possible to truly answer this question without saying "well the number two has human limitations as to how we can see it." But if one day G-d came down and said "well, ya know...from now on there is no two, your concept of two is actually three." Would that be possible? (just for sake of conversation, not that G-d would have any reason to go around confusing our numerical system!)

 

[FreezBee]

.... But if one day G-d came down and said "well, ya know...from now on there is no two, your concept of two is actually three." Would that be possible? (just for sake of conversation, not that G-d would have any reason to go around confusing our numerical system!)

How do you know what God has reason to do?


cheers

- FreezBee

 

[leia]

Yes, yes, yes! If 1 + 1 can equal 3, why can't 2 + 2 = 5? And God is all powerful, so it couldn't be beyond Her power. The numbers could represent groups!

I am gonna KEEP that answer! Reminds me of: what happens when an immovable object meets an irresistable force? Well, logically, the answer is that one negates the existence of the other in a closed environment. HOWEVER! I took a painting class in my Mennonite college days and asked that question to a real beatnick looking guy (great artist) and without missing a heartbeat he said, "They get married". Priceless. Absolutely priceless. And I have looked at that from all sides now and find....he is right.....

Whole numbers....you know of course, that you can not possible GET past zero even to 1 (tell THAT to your professor). Let's say you are standing on a number line on zero. One is....over there... but to get there you have to go through 1/2. But to get to 1/2 you have to go through 1/4.....ect. LOGICALLY, not practically (greek, just look in it's mouth and COUNT the horses teeth) you can't get there because you can never start!

leia

 

[FreezBee]

Whole numbers....you know of course, that you can not possible GET past zero even to 1 (tell THAT to your professor). Let's say you are standing on a number line on zero. One is....over there... but to get there you have to go through 1/2. But to get to 1/2 you have to go through 1/4.....ect. LOGICALLY, not practically (greek, just look in it's mouth and COUNT the horses teeth) you can't get there because you can never start!

Say, there are X (X being any whole number > 0) meters between 0 and 1. You walk with a speed of X/Y (Y being any whole number > 0) meters per Z (Z being any whole number > 0) time units. Then you will have gotten to or past 1 after Y*Z time units, in my reckoning at least. Please prove otherwise.

The fallacy in your argument is that you assume that you have to take infinitesimal smal steps - but you don't.

Talking about infinitesimals, bishop George Berkeley (in the 18th century) wondered why those that were to squeamish to accept a virgin-birth could still accept gathering together infinitesimal small amounts and end up with something with a positive size.


cheers

- FreezBee

 

[StrugglingSceptic]

I recall that somebody has stated that God created the whole numbers, but everything else is the works of humans. I don't recall who it was, but I suppose that is of less importance

It was a 19th century mathematician called Kronecker. He further commented that the work that had been done on transcendentals and algebraic numbers was irrelevant, since irrational numbers don't even exist.

 

[Tinker Grey]

PI doesn't exist?
e doesn't exist?
sqrt(2) doesn't exist?

 

[Moros]

Only if God chooses to be illogical.

 

[Abbadon]

How do we know God isn't constantly changing values such as "2", or "Pi", or "triangle" constantly, we just aren't capable of realizing it, or our memories of it change, or something?

 

[FreezBee]

It was a 19th century mathematician called Kronecker. He further commented that the work that had been done on transcendentals and algebraic numbers was irrelevant, since irrational numbers don't even exist.

Thank you


cheers

- FreezBee