1Peter 3:21 is baptism a symbol?

[notinvain]

What do you read in 1Peter 3:21? That Baptism is a symbol? This is a very vital verse I beleive in understanding baptism and is the verse that is often referenced when people say that Baptism is an outward sign or an inward faith (which is unbiblical). What does this scripture tell us?

 

[JohnJones]

Baptism is a symbol, but not merely a symbol. It is a symbol of what takes place inside itself. In baptism, the spritual resurrection takes place -- so Paul says in Colossians 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." So, it is not merely a symbol of the operation which the Holy Spirit performs inside the believer, but it is also when and where the Holy Ghost performs the said operation.

1st Peter 3:21 teaches plainly that baptism saves by it's connection to Christ's resurrection and the appeal made inside it, not by the mere application of water (although water is a necessary part of it). Paul says basically the same in Romans 6:4-5 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life, FOR [because] if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" -- Plainly, we must be baptized in order to have newness of life. Just as a seed does not become a plant if it is not planted, a believer cannot have newness of life unless he/she is baptized.

In baptism the believer is re-born of water and of the Spirit (John 3:5) and receives the washing of regeneration [rebirth] and the renewing by the Holy Ghost [Spirit]. (Titus 3:5)

 

[Nazarite]

Baptism is a symbol of our salvation in that we point to our immersion in water based upon our faith in what Jesus did for us at the cross. Just as Noah and his family were saved by water so are we. The water did not literally save Noah any more than it literally saves us. What the water did was serve as a way of dividing Noah from a wicked generation. The water seperated he and his family from the sinful men of earth. The Israelites were similarly baptized when water seperated them from the land of Egypt, Pharoh, and his army. So baptism is a symbol of seperation from sin.

 

[JohnJones]

We must be careful on this point, however, because a symbol is seen today as something not 100% necessary to the thing symbolized. Baptism is 100% necessary to what is symbolized by it, which is why I call it a symbol of what takes place inside itself - it is synchronous and synonymous to what it symbolizes - it confers what it symbolizes, and what it symbolizes cannot be obtained apart from it nor prior to it. Thus Paul is told "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16) Note that it is not said that his sins were already washed away and he should do something to symbolize that thing that had already happened. Rather he is told that baptism is where this thing WILL happen. His sins WILL be washed away IN baptism. Thus, baptism confers the thing first, then symbolizes it after it has conferred it. So then baptism is the means by which remission of sins is received before it is the symbol of the reception thereof.



confer: to grant as a possession; to bestow (Webster)

 

[filosofer]

Note that Baptism is not the symbol in 1 Peter 3:21. It is the ANTITYPOS ("antitype"), the type being Noah's ark, the greater type being baptism.

 

[jj_3737]

Rather than responding in an exhortative sense regarding this verse, I would like to merely pose a few thoughts. I testify to all who say that we are saved by baptism of water that you have fallen from grace, and Christ has profited you nothing. This baptism here spoken of, which is, “not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”, is not designed to wash the outward man and his flesh by water. For it is not water baptism that now saves us, but the blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore, if John truly baptized with water, and Jesus Christ baptizes with the Holy Ghost, and the Scriptures plainly testify that there is, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” – Eph 4:5. What baptism is here spoken us? There certainly are not two baptisms, for the Scriptures proclaim there only to be one. Which baptism is able to save you? Jesus Christ has said, “It is the spirit that quickeneth [makes alive]; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” – Jn 6:63. Blessed are the poor in spirit indeed.

-jj

 

[AnnieSue]

We seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but there cometh he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and [in] fire:

Ac 19:3 And he said, Into what then were ye baptized? And they said, Into John`s baptism.
Ac 19:4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on him that should come after him, that is, on Jesus.
Ac 19:5 And when they heard this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[JohnJones]

I testify to all who say that we are saved by baptism of water that you have fallen from grace, and Christ has profited you nothing.

Water baptism does not and cannot exist apart from Christ nor antithetical to him. It is directly connected to his resurrection. It is where a man is born again of water and of the Spirit. I testify to you that all who say baptism is not essential to salvation have never received grace nor been reborn, for baptism is the means of grace and the point of the rebirth. It is in the name of Jesus, into the likeness of Jesus' death, and it saves by the resurrection of Jesus. It's all about Jesus. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

“not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”,

Peter is pointing out that the reason for which it saves is not the physical washing, but the internal appeal, but he does not indicate that there is no phsical washing nor that the internal appeal could take place without said washing. Nay, he is merely saying "Water baptism saves, but just in case any of you want to think I'm talking about magic water, I'm not - baptism saves because of the appeal made to God and the connection to Christ's resurrection, not because the water is magic."

 

[AnnieSue]

Water baptism does not and cannot exist apart from Christ nor antithetical to him. It is directly connected to his resurrection. It is where a man is born again of water and of the Spirit. I testify to you that all who say baptism is not essential to salvation have never received grace nor been reborn, for baptism is the means of grace and the point of the rebirth. It is in the name of Jesus, into the likeness of Jesus' death, and it saves by the resurrection of Jesus. It's all about Jesus. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

Being born of water is being born of a woman. An unborn child is contained in a sack. When the sack is broken or the womans water breaks the child is born.

When we are born again we recieve the Spirit of God. This is our second birth. We are born again.

John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[JohnJones]

Grammatically when Jesus says "must be born of water and of the Spirit," he speaks of ONE BIRTH consisting of two elements, not of two different births. In Greek this is even more obvious than in English, but it is obvious in English too. The rebirth consists of two simultaneous parts. He speaks of ONE BIRTH consisting of two elements, water and Spirit. Where do we see water and Spirit together in ONE BIRTH other than in baptism? Nowhere!

 

[AnnieSue]

Grammatically when Jesus says "must be born of water and of the Spirit," he speaks of ONE BIRTH consisting of two elements, not of two different births. In Greek this is even more obvious than in English, but it is obvious in English too. The rebirth consists of two simultaneous parts. He speaks of ONE BIRTH consisting of two elements, water and Spirit. Where do we see water and Spirit together in ONE BIRTH other than in baptism? Nowhere!

If he is speaking of one birth...why does he use the term "born agin" implying 2 births.

1st birth = born of woman, water breaking, the birth of the flesh.

When we are born again we recieve the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It there is anything that we HAVE to Do to be saved, then we are saved by works and not by grace.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 Corinthians 1
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.


Words of John the Baptist
Matthew 3
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John Also says"


John 3
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The requirement for salvation is given in verse 36 above.

 

[jj_3737]

AnnieSue, you are correct in your belief regarding water baptism, and I agree that if water baptism is required for salvation then your salvation is based upon works, and no longer upon the grace of God. For the Scriptures repeatedly testify that our salvation is,

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" - Titus 3:5.

However, concerning “born of water” in John 3:5 both JohnJones view that this water is water baptism and your view AnnieSue that this is your physical birth I would disagree with.

I suggest that this water and Spirit are one in the same thing, as water is often times referred to as the Spirit, and the Scriptures always point to Christ. If this rebirth comes from above from Jesus Christ our Lord, then this water does so likewise. Jesus shortly thereafter proclaimed, “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him SHALL BE IN HIM a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” – Jn 4:14. The water that Christ has given us, that living water, the water that is IN US, that cleanses us from within, this washing of regeneration, is the Holy Spirit.

If then you ask, why does it not just say the Spirit, and leave water out if they are the same? I then ask you this, and I ask that you sincerely think about the question. Why did Jesus tell His disciples that He spoke in parables?

Therefore, I testify again, that all who say we are saved by baptism of water have fallen from grace, and Christ has profited you nothing. By works shall none be justified.


-jj

 

[AnnieSue]

I should have included the beginning of the chapter to give better context.
Nicodemus is specifically asking if one can re-enter the mother's womb (the first birth or the birth of the flesh).

Jesus answers flesh is flesh, but one must be born again of the spirit. This is 2 births.



John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[jj_3737]

AnnieSue, being born again does not mean you have to first be born physically, and then reborn spiritually. It only means that you must be reborn spiritually. As King David proclaimed, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." - Ps 51:5. Therefore, I am suspect of the phrase, "born of water" in John 3:5, referring to your physical birth. Here is where your view tends to fall apart. It implies that to enter into the kingdom of God, you MUST be physically born. Your view implies that all babies who are not born naturally go to hell. Would you still agree? Seeing that man can be born again of the Spirit, called of God, sanctified, and heaven bound from within womb, it would nullify your point.

"The LORD hath called me [Isaiah] from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." - Isa 49:1

"Before I [God] formed thee in the belly I knew thee [Jeremiah]; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." - Jer 1:5

"For he [John the Baptist] shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." - Lk 1:15.

When Jesus speaks about that which is born of flesh is flesh, he is not necessarily referring to physical flesh (i.e. being physically born), but the nature of man, being carnally mind and in iniquity from birth. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit period. If you are born of the Spirit, regardless if you have been physically born, you are still born again, seeing that your sinful nature was in the flesh to begin with.

Take care,
-jj

 

[AnnieSue]

Your view implies that all babies who are not born naturally go to hell. Would you still agree? Seeing that man can be born again of the Spirit, called of God, sanctified, and heaven bound from within womb, it would nullify your point.

-jj

Any baby that has ever existed in the womb..no matter what the length, has been surrounded by the amniotic fluid. Even if a child is lost prematurely or God Forbid aborted, it was once surrounded by this fluid. When a baby makes it to the birth process..be it natural or C-section, the water sack is broken, thus the term...my water broke.

God Bless

 

[jj_3737]

Hmm, I'm curious to why being born of literal water is so important to your view? Also, I'm not sure if it's fair to change your definition of being born in the middle of our discussion,

1st birth = born of woman, water breaking, the birth of the flesh.

Now, you've change your 1st birth to mean simply being surrounded by water in the womb? Well, I still would say that being born again means being taken from the kingdom of Satan over into the kingdom of Christ. It has nothing to do with your natural birth or your condition in the womb (i.e. being surrounded by water). Also, it's not much of a BIRTH if you died in the womb. You are conceived into the kingdom of Satan, and you are reborn, made alive, by the Spirit of Christ. This can take place from the womb and does not require a physical birth. The mother could die in an accident wholly destine for hell, while yet the unborn baby could be destine for heaven. Why is this? Because,

“12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." - Jn 1:12-13.

Here we see that God views your physical birth as being born of blood, and not of water. And to be reborn, is of no ones will but that of God, and they (i.e. the sons of God) don't even have to be physically born of blood to be called this.


Take care,
-jj

 

[JohnJones]

AnnieSue, you are correct in your belief regarding water baptism, and I agree that if water baptism is required for salvation then your salvation is based upon works, and no longer upon the grace of God. For the Scriptures repeatedly testify that our salvation is,

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" - Titus 3:5.

JJ, I find your quoting of Titus 3:5 interesting, especially since you don't believe that "born of water" refers to literal water at all. Note the parallelism between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5. "washing of regeneration [rebirth NIV]" and "born of water" - "AND renewing of the Holy Ghost" and "AND of the Spirit." They are perfectly parallel. Now, in Titus 3:5 we see two things, one of the Holy Ghost, the other not. The renewing is of the Holy Ghost, but we find no mention that the washing is of the Holy Ghost. What is the washing of? No doubt, the answer is in Heb 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." Note that the phrase "our BODIES washed with pure water" indicates literal water - Paul says that having our BODIES washed with pure water gives us boldness to enter the holy of holies! What else can he mean other than water baptism, and what else can Titus 3:5 be talking about? Nothing else.

 

[AnnieSue]

Hmm, I'm curious to why being born of literal water is so important to your view? Also, I'm not sure if it's fair to change your definition of being born in the middle of our discussion,




Now, you've change your 1st birth to mean simply being surrounded by water in the womb? -jj[/QUOTE

It was you who changed the question.

Your view implies that all babies who are not born naturally go to hell. Would you still agree? Seeing that man can be born again of the Spirit, called of God, sanctified, and heaven bound from within womb, it would nullify your point.

-jj

Nicodemus is clearly asking how can one be born again. Nicodemus knows that he can not reenter his mothers womb. Jesus is simply telling him that in order to be born again he must be born again ie born of the spirit. He is showing he difference between being born of woman-flesh-water and being born again-spirit.

I have never said that being born again was anything that disagreed with your view that being born again is being taken from the Kingdom of Satan. I agree.

The following verse that you posted does not contradict anything I have said.
Those that have recieved him were born of God. This is what being born again is. Nor does it say that anthing about being born of blood, it says NOT of blood. It is speaking of how we recieve Salvation.

“12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." - Jn 1:12-13.

 

[notinvain]

One of you is closer to the truth than the other, but because of false teachings and evil men, many are decieved. Knowing that you are decieved is nearly impossible unless someone points it out to you. Even then our Pride kicks in and we automatically defend our hope of salvation (whatever that might be).

So, Regarless of whether "baptism that saves" is by the "Spirit" or by "baptism in water"- without baptism- there is no forgiveness of sin (although there is a distinct difference between the two) and without forgiveness there is no heaven. So one of you is right and one of you is wrong, but only one veiw is truth, the other is a lie of Satan. So I say to all of us, we can't agree to disagree- because one view will lead you to hell and which ever one is true -will set you free!

 

[jj_3737]

JohnJones, yes, there are obvious parallels between Titus 3:5 and John 3:5 and that is indeed why I quoted the verse. You stated,

Note that the phrase "our BODIES washed with pure water" indicates literal water - Paul says that having our BODIES washed with pure water gives us boldness to enter the holy of holies! What else can he mean other than water baptism, and what else can Titus 3:5 be talking about? Nothing else.

This is nothing less than blasphemy. To suggest that to wash our bodies with “pure water” is to wash with the water down at the local river is to literally deny the living water given to us by Christ. “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I [Jesus] shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him SHALL BE IN HIM a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” – Jn 4:14. The water that Christ has given us, that living water, the water that is IN US, that cleanses us from within, the washing of regeneration, is the Holy Spirit. Jesus said to the Pharisees, “…Now do ye Pharisees make clean [wash] the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.” – Lk 11:39. Your goal was never to wash the outside of your body, but the inward man. This is basic and foundational Christian doctrine.

AnnieSue, the interaction between Jesus and Nicodemus is exactly to teach the reader that this is not speaking of a physical birth in any way. To clarify, our views of being born again are QUITE different. Your idea of being “born of water” representing being physically born sounds better than water baptism, but is in fact no different than JohnJones view. You both agree that you must be born of the spirit, and you both agree that you must be born of literal water. JohnJones just believes that this water is found at the local river, where you believe that this water is found in the womb. I hold to the position that this water is in fact the Holy Spirit, and entirely the work of Christ. JohnJones says that the "pure water" is the water in some river. You would have to say that the "pure water" is the water in the womb, lest you be double-minded. I hold to the position that this “pure water” is that living water given to us by Christ: the Holy Spirit! We have DRASTICALLY different views, with drastically different implications.

-jj