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1973 War

tranquil

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"Divine protection .... or happenstance ?"

Way to frame a debate with a loaded question.

Logical Fallacy: Loaded Question

A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is "loaded" with that presumption. The question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife. If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded.
Since this example is a yes/no question, there are only the following two direct answers:

  1. "Yes, I have stopped beating my wife", which entails "I was beating my wife."
  2. "No, I haven't stopped beating my wife", which entails "I am still beating my wife."
Thus, either direct answer entails that you have beaten your wife, which is, therefore, a presupposition of the question. So, a loaded question is one which you cannot answer directly without implying a falsehood or a statement that you deny. For this reason, the proper response to such a question is not to answer it directly, but to either refuse to answer or to reject the question.
Some systems of parliamentary debate provide for "dividing the question", that is, splitting a complex question up into two or more simple questions. Such a move can be used to split the example as follows:

  1. "Have you ever beaten your wife?"
  2. "If so, are you still doing so?"
In this way, 1 can be answered directly by "no", and then the conditional question 2 does not arise.
Exposure:

Since a question is not an argument, simply asking a loaded question is not a fallacious argument. Rather, loaded questions are typically used to trick someone into implying something they did not intend. For instance, salespeople learn to ask such loaded questions as: "Will that be cash or charge?" This question gives only two alternatives, thus presuming that the potential buyer has already decided to make a purchase, which is similar to the Black-or-White Fallacy. If the potential buyer answers the question directly, he may suddenly find himself an actual buyer.
The correct answer is "C" - They understand prophecy and deliberately make it happen. Satan is not stupid.
 
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Friar Tuck

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Divine protection but not in a mystical sense. In the past God had taught these people how to fight , how to choose the best of the best to get the job done , that's the kind of divine protection I see. These people know how to fight and they were trained by God .
 
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josephearl

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IMHO it would be hard to see anything but divine protection in all that has happened since 1948. Israel's time has come and nothing will change the destiny God has spoken for her in His word is my foundation for this comment.
Christians prayed for Israel both before and during this time and God answers the prayers of His saints, especially when they pray according to His will and by His Spirit.
 
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josephearl

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The thing one might ponder is what will be the outcome of an Israeli defense of their nation from Iraq via a pre-emptive strike on their nuclear facilities. It could very well be time for Israel to suffer a cataclysmic defeat if one thinks scriptures such as this are yet future:
“For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.” (Zechariah 14:2, NASB95)

and since I cannot recall a time when all the nations have been against Israel this very well could be yet future, a day of sorrow unlike any they have experienced before, and that IS saying something. Hope not but only God knows for sure.
 
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Interplanner

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Why would Christians who pray that the eyes of people would be opened to see the glory of God in the face of Christ ( Col 1, 2 Cor 4) pray anything other than that for Israel, or Gabon, or Chicago, etc?

I can think of many other countries that are seriously hurting as well.

Joseph, don't forget to absorb Acts 13's sermon in your formula for the destiny for Israel. Everything promised to David was fulfilled and served its purpose in that generation. But now in the resurrection, the promises to David were transfered to Christ, and that's a quote of Isaiah. Why? so that the nations could hear the message of justification from sins through that resurrection. Looks to me like the destiny of israel was (from Acts 2 forward) to be missionaries of that.

So when they start expounding that with whatever superior skills they may have, great. Meanwhile, they are just another country, and thankfully they have constitutional representation instead of a religious fanatical dictatorship.
 
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T

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"IMHO it would be hard to see anything but divine protection in all that has happened since 1948. Israel's time has come and nothing will change the destiny God has spoken for her in His word is my foundation for this comment.
Christians prayed for Israel both before and during this time and God answers the prayers of His saints, especially when they pray according to His will and by His Spirit."


The Lord's national people are back just as the prophets tell .... and they are for a reason .... for the Lord's purposes


Joel
3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim.

3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
 
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Interplanner

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and why is Joel necessarily about 1973? Was it the day of the Lord's judgement? The day of decision? The sun went dark? The moon to blood?

What does the NT say is the destiny, purpose, fulfillment of Israel in Acts 13, Eph 2-3, Col 1-2, Gal 3-4--where was it all going and why?
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi Time

It is not divine protection it is USA protection in the form of hundreds of billions of dollars in military aid.

Israel is the only country allowed to openly commit ethnic cleansing all under the protection of Dispentionalist Doctrine and the power of the military machine of the Industrial military complex that controls the US.

Eisenhower was right when he warned about the dangers of this machine.
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi


Well I trust Jesus and he tells me that Gog And Magog are after the 1,000 years.

Rv:20:8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I do not put my trust in the false interpretation of a single man from the early 1800's who took the words "from your graves" and said no no no God doesn't really mean actual graves he means spiritual graves thus spiritualised the verse away.

8: After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Modern Israel is not a land brought back from the destruction of war. Nor do they dwell safely.

11: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Israel the land of unwalled villages?????



israeliswall.jpg



israeliswall-2.jpg



israeliswall-3.jpg



israeliswall-map.jpg



Hummmmm not seeing modern Israel as Ezekiel 38:

Also could you please explain why the Israelis Supreme court building has an All seeing Eye Pyramid as a centre piece of its architecture.


supremecourt.jpg


Perhaps you are right!!!!!!! it is all God's work!!!!!!!!!
 
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Just The Facts

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Hi

No you do not think Jesus is correct.

Rv:20:7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I understand that you do not want to trust the Only One Found Worthy.

5: And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

That is your choice.
 
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ebedmelech

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How do you know that the USA is not the Lord's instrument in this process?

Considering a more reliable source, what do you think about this [Ezekiel 38; 39]?

Who is addressing "gog" and what is Israel's status just before the attack?

And what about the outcome?
ALL NATIONS ARE THE LORD'S INSTRUMENTS.

Jesus has been in the position as LORD OF ALL since His resurrection...which is what Paul said this in Ephesians 1:20, 21:
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.


Reading is truly fundamental!!! :thumbsup:
 
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ebedmelech

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Your answer is a sideliner .... you really did not answer

I can do the same and so can any one else
Only if you don't understand scripture which clearly says Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron today. This is very clear this happened upon his resurrection.

So the only thing is sidelines is dispensational eschatology...which basically fails because it does not and will not acknowledge the language of scripture.

Revelation 12:5:
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Psalm 2:7-8:
7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.

8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9 ‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”


Hebrews 1:1-4
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.


Crystal clear...JESUS REIGNS NOW...and the church with Him!
 
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dfw69

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Only if you don't understand scripture which clearly says Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron today. This is very clear this happened upon his resurrection.

So the only thing is sidelines is dispensational eschatology...which basically fails because it does not and will not acknowledge the language of scripture.

Revelation 12:5:
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

Psalm 2:7-8:
7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.

8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9 ‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”


Hebrews 1:1-4
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.


Crystal clear...JESUS REIGNS NOW...and the church with Him!

Ebad you should run for president.. All you need is your rod of iron to run off mr Obama ... Watch out for his secret service men though..:)
 
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