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Sophia7

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There's abundant evidence in the Bible that says there is a judgement BEFORE Christ comes. See http://www.harvesthands.org/judgment1.htm & http://www.harvesthands.org/judgment2.htm.
No, there is abundant evidence in the Bible to show that there are executive judgments (such as on the little horn) before Jesus comes and then a final executive judgment at the end of time.

djconklin said:
As for 1844 it is highly unlikely that God would have given a prophecy pointing to 1844 (or any other point in time) just for the fun of it.
Well, I don't think He did. I don't believe that Daniel 8:14 points to 1844 at all.
 
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tall73

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There is NO verse in Hebrews that says such a thing. And please don't cite some flawed translation. Use the Greek.

Do you believe Jesus dedicated the temple as described in Hebrews?
 
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JonDavis

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Do you have a reference for this quote, and do you know which specific portions they were referring to? Also, the section that I quoted wasn't an historical reference; it was her interpretation of the OT sanctuary types in relation to Jesus' ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. Are you saying that someone else wrote this and that she wasn't shown it by God? In that case, how would anyone be able to tell which things she actually wrote and which things they should view as "authoritative"? I guess if people don't like something that she said, they could just claim that she didn't actually write it.
Here is the link again to where I found this quote at....
"My real difficulty is just here: Sister White did not write
either the old edition or the revised, as I understand it."
http://dlearn.wwc.edu/classes/relh457/articles/bc1919/part2.html


That may be true but they did support some of her other writings...

Has she ever changed any of the nine volumes of the Testimonies?
W. W. Prescott: "Great Controversy" is the only book I know of that has
been revised.
C. M. Sorenson: Hasn't "Early Writings" been revised? I understand some
omissions have been made in the later editions.
W. W. Prescott: Perhaps some things have been left out, but I do not think the writing itself has been revised.
Even with that I think the Bible clearly supports the investigative judgment.
In Daniel 7 would the most plain...


I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


So this happens sometime after the horn is speaking great things.

With that the whole scene of the investigative judgment is revealed in Revelations 4-5.

We know Revelation has much sanctuary language and that Ellen White in her vision saw an open door from the holy to the most holy, the same as Rev 4 that starts with the open door.
 
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Sophia7

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Here is the link again to where I found this quote at....
Thanks for the link.

JonDavis said:
Even with that I think the Bible clearly supports the investigative judgment.
In Daniel 7 would the most plain...

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

So this happens sometime after the horn is speaking great things.

With that the whole scene of the investigative judgment is revealed in Revelations 4-5.

We know Revelation has much sanctuary language and that Ellen White in her vision saw an open door from the holy to the most holy, the same as Rev 4 that starts with the open door.
The judgment in Daniel 7 is an executive judgment on the little horn. It says nothing about an investigative judgment of the sins of the saints, and neither does Revelation 4-5.
 
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JonDavis

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Dan 8:17
So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Wc can conclude that the 2300 days take sometime at the end as shown above.

Exodus 32:33
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

1 Pet 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Hebrews 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Acts 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


Rev 4 and 5 do not say anything about judgment but the scene was taken from Daniel 7:9-10

Daniel..
1. Thrones cast down
2. Ancient of days sits
3. Fiery stream comes before him
4. Thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him:
5. judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Revelation
1. throne was set in heaven
2. one sat on the throne
3. before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal
4. And the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
5. And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
6. Open Door

Ellen White - Early Writings...

Sabbath, March 24, 1849, we had a sweet and very interesting meeting with the brethren at Topsham, Maine. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us, and I was taken off in the Spirit to the city of the living God. Then I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out with all their importance, and for God's people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches. {EW 42.1} I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Rev. 3:7,8); [SEE PAGE 86. SEE ALSO APPENDIX.] and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God's people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question. {EW 42.2}

I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; for they had not the light and the test on the Sabbath which we now have since that door was opened. I saw that Satan was tempting some of God's people on this point. Because so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith and have not kept the true Sabbath, they were doubting about its being a test for us now. {EW 42.3}

The enemies of the present truth have been trying to open the door of the holy place, that Jesus has shut, and to close the door of the most holy place, which He opened in 1844, where the ark is, containing the two tables of stone on which are written the ten commandments by the finger of Jehovah. {EW 43.1}



Somehow I doubt the books were only opened for that little horn in Daniel 7.

Ellen White said this also..
Manuscript releases #9 – NO. 667
In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close. This roll was written within and without. John says:

Testimonies for the Church Volume Nine (1909)
What will such a one do in the day that the books are opened and every man is judged according to the things written in the books?
The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days.

The Great Controversy Ended 1990 – Facing Our Life Record p271
As the books of record are opened in the Judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance.

Christ's Object Lessons (1900) -Chap. 23 - The Lord's Vineyard
Thus the Jewish leaders made their choice. Their decision was registered in the book which John saw in the hand of Him that sat upon the throne, the book which no man could open. In all its vindictiveness this decision will appear before them in the day when this book is unsealed by the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Originally Posted by djconklin
EGW has been accussed of contradicting Scripture over 50 times. In each and every single case it has been shown that it was the critics who were wrong and not EGW; see http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/contradictions.html

Most of the alleged contradictions are the result of the critics simplistic, wooden and literalistic reading of both texts.


I just read that, it is amazing that they think they have answered the charges. You would have to have complete belief in EGW to see any of their answers as adequate at all. some of them like [FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]53. Did Enoch think to save Sodom? [/FONT][/FONT]are laugable, while some, like [FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]52. COULD JESUS SEE THROUGH THE PORTALS OF THE TOMB? [/FONT][/FONT]are simply based upon a completely non biblical conception.
[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Christ had to die the death that we should have died—the same death that the lost will die at the end of time. Do the lost at the end of time have a sense that their death will just be temporary and that they will soon be resurrected again? Or do they have a strange and horribly painful sense that they are being eternally separated from God, their Creator? If Jesus was truly to die our death — the death of the lost — then He had to experience exactly what they will and nothing less.[/FONT][/FONT]

It is true that some of the things in the list are not contradictions, but rather additional information that is totally foreign to the Bible stories and thus they seem to be contradictions in the regard that they speak of things which the Bible says nothing of. But still I am amazed the White Estate would put this on their website, if that is the best they can come up with it does not leave them in a good position.
 
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djconklin

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[quote]
Originally Posted by djconklin
There's abundant evidence in the Bible that says there is a judgement BEFORE Christ comes. See http://www.harvesthands.org/judgment1.htm & http://www.harvesthands.org/judgment2.htm.

No, there is abundant evidence in the Bible to show that there are executive judgments (such as on the little horn) before Jesus comes and then a final executive judgment at the end of time.

We basically agree.

Originally Posted by djconklin
As for 1844 it is highly unlikely that God would have given a prophecy pointing to 1844 (or any other point in time) just for the fun of it.

Well, I don't think He did. I don't believe that Daniel 8:14 points to 1844 at all.


In the final analysis it doesn't matter what anyone believes--it is what are the facts. The prophecies of Daniel unmistakeably point to 1844.
 
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djconklin

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The book of Hebrews shows that Jesus did enter the MHP
There is NO verse in Hebrews that says such a thing. And please don't cite some flawed translation. Use the Greek.

Do you believe Jesus dedicated the temple as described in Hebrews?

And where does it say that in order to dedicate the Temple (no verse has been offered to support that, either), one has to enter the MHP?

And then we can ask what does one do in a "dedication"? How does that differ from what we see happening in the Day of Atonement? If all He did was "dedicate" then that certainly does not perform the mission symbolized during the Day of Atonement, right?
 
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djconklin

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some {sic} of them like [FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]53. Did Enoch think to save Sodom? [/FONT][/FONT]are laugable

With no indication as to why.

Is it really all that hard to understand when a metaphor is being used?

while some, like [FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]52. COULD JESUS SEE THROUGH THE PORTALS OF THE TOMB? [/FONT][/FONT]are simply based upon a completely non biblical conception.

Again no proof is offered in support of this contention.

I like how they started out by putting the quote in context; something the critics rarely do.

But still I am amazed the White Estate would put this on their website, if that is the best they can come up with it does not leave them in a good position.

I believe that the web site says that the answers were worked up by volunteers, not the Estate. I'll reserve judgment till I see one from an unbiased source.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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With no indication as to why.

Is it really all that hard to understand when a metaphor is being used?

I know that is what is so funny about it. They try and make it into a metaphor but the entire context is about Enoch's daily life.


Again no proof is offered in support of this contention.

I like how they started out by putting the quote in context; something the critics rarely do.
Did you not read the quote I posted from them about Jesus having to die the death of the lost at the end of time? Now just try and find that anywhere in the Bible. It does however point out just how those answers work for those who already believe the way that the volunteers do. Like DJ they often don't know when something is from the Bible or EGW. But those are not really the kind of people who should be answering the challenges to EGW.

Many of the critics do give the context often the full paragraphs but then there are those who don't you have to choose your critics wisely just as you have to choose those with answers wisely.
 
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djconklin

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Originally Posted by djconklin
With no indication as to why.

Is it really all that hard to understand when a metaphor is being used?


I know that is what is so funny about it. They try and make it into a metaphor but the entire context is about Enoch's daily life.

Sodom was the metaphor not Enoch.

Originally Posted by djconklin

Again no proof is offered in support of this contention.

I like how they started out by putting the quote in context; something the critics rarely do.


Did you not read the quote I posted from them about Jesus having to die the death of the lost at the end of time? Now just try and find that anywhere in the Bible.

In your haste to judge you missed the first part of the sentence: "Christ had to die the death that we should have died." All you have to do is think about it and you'll see that the is true--the wages of sin is death (and it's not talking about what we call death).

Many of the critics do give the context often the full paragraphs but then there are those who don't you have to choose your critics wisely just as you have to choose those with answers wisely.

Actually, most critics don't give full paragraphs and some, as we have just seen, can't even give a full sentence. Most critics don't go by the evidence, but only by their presuppositions.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Yes the completly unbiblical idea that Christ died the second death, you forget DJ I know what these issues are. It is why I don't put too much stock in your research. Their criticism of EGW saying "that Enoch did not locate in Sodom" is false because there was no sodom at that time is just as acceptable as saying that she used it as a metaphor. They could have said there really was a sodom before the flood also, it would carry as much weight. The point will still remain that she has produced information that is not found in the Bible. They merely used this one instead of hundreds of other examples such as:

Giants Before the Flood.--At the first resurrection all come forth in immortal bloom, but at the second, the marks of the curse are visible upon all. All come up as they went down into their graves. Those who lived before the Flood, come forth with their giant-like stature, more than twice as tall as men now living upon the earth, and well proportioned. The generations after the Flood were less in stature (3SG 84). {1BC 1090.1}
or
12, 13. Noah Ridiculed.--Before the destruction of the old world by a flood, there were talented men, men who possessed skill and knowledge. But they became corrupt in their imagination, because they left God out of their plans and councils. They were wise to do what God had never told them to do, wise to do evil. The Lord saw that this example would be deleterious to those who should afterwards be born, and He took the matter in hand. For one hundred twenty years He sent them warnings through His servant Noah. But they used the probation so graciously granted them in ridiculing Noah. They caricatured him and criticized him. They laughed at him for his peculiar earnestness and intense feeling in regard to the judgments which he declared God would surely fulfill. They talked of science and of the laws controlling nature. Then they held a carnival over the words of Noah, calling him a crazy fanatic. God's patience was exhausted. He said to Noah, "The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them, and, behold, I will destroy them from the earth" (MS 29, 1890). {1BC 1090.7}

It does not matter how you spin things these are not ideas from the Bible, they are not found in the Bible stories. Ellen White did not originate most of these ideas but they did become part of the SDA doctrinal structure by her use of them.

Abode in Pure Atmosphere.--He [Enoch] did not make his abode with the wicked. He did not locate in Sodom, thinking to save Sodom. He placed himself and his family where the atmosphere would be as pure as possible. Then at times he went forth to the inhabitants of the world with
1088
his God-given message. Every visit he made to the world was painful to him. He saw and understood something of the leprosy of sin. After proclaiming his message, he always took back with him to his place of retirement some who had received the warning. Some of these became overcomers, and died before the Flood came. But some had lived so long in the corrupting influence of sin that they could not endure righteousness (MS 42, 1900). {1BC 1087.10}
 
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djconklin

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Yes the completly unbiblical idea that Christ died the second death, you forget DJ I know what these issues are.

Argh! The garmmar it hurst my eyes!

How can I "forget" what has never been proven or shown?

It is why I don't put too much stock in your research.

And yet outsiders with Ph.D. do--who am I to believe?

You recognized that just because there is literary similarity that didn't mean it was copied. But, when we turn to EGW its a whole new ball game. That just doesn't make sense.

Their criticism of EGW saying "that Enoch did not locate in Sodom" is false because there was no sodom {sic} at time is just as acceptable as saying that she used it as a metaphor.

No, just as there was no Babylon when John wrote and yet it was used as a metaphor in the book of Revelation. Ignoring the use of a metaphor is too simplistic a thinking style--the Bible is fiilled with metaphors, one cannot understand it without knowing that it uses metaphors.

They could have said there really was a sodom before the flood also, it would carry as much weight.

That would be irrational and illogical. Ignoring the use of a metaphor wipes out any weight to the argument they might have had.

The point will still remain that she has produced information that is not found in the Bible.

However, since the criticism wasn't valid the "point" is still unproven and has no validity until it is proven. A mere accusation is not proof, nor is it a point.

They merely used this one instead of hundreds of other examples such as:

"Hundreds"?!? Where'd that number come from? Ids that like EGW plagiarized 80-90% number? To find the real number of the amount of literary similarity one would have to divide that number by 40-50+ and then one would still have to prove that the similarities were copied.

Ellen White did not originate most of these ideas ...

Really?!? And how do you know that?
 
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tall73

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Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. 2 For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place,
4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant. 5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.


The author begins with a review of the sanctuary service noting that only once per year did the High Priest go into the most holy.

This sets the stage for the whole comparison in the following verses. The Day of Atonement was the highpoint of the Jewish typology. The author’s whole thrust throughout the book is that Jesus is superior to Moses, to angels, His covenant is superior, He is the superior High Priest (which he is enlarging on now), and He is the superior sacrifice. He is superior in every way, and those who are considering falling away from Him, perhaps back to Judaism, in the face of persecution, are in great danger.

It would be completely illogical for him to raise the high point of the typology and then go on to conclude that Jesus did not actually fulfill it. He does show that Jesus fulfilled not only the highpoint, but the whole thing.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

A. Christ entered ONCE for all into the holy places , SECURING ETERNAL REDEMPTION.

B. It mentions that Jesus is the High Priest, and entered in by means of His own blood, not that of goats and calves. The comparison is striking. The High Priest went in every year and offered things that could not really cleanse. Jesus entered in ONCE FOR ALL TIME with His own blood and bought eternal redemption.

C. The sprinkling of defiled persons, and ashes of a heifer is a reference to Numbers 19 and the procedure of cleansing after touching a dead body, etc. Jesus is seen as fulfilling this.

D. Exodus 24 relates the initial covenant agreement with the people which included the blood of bulls. It also blends this with the dedication of the sanctuary.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. 23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


The new covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ. Just as the first covenant involved blood so this one did too. Here everything is sprinkled. This is clearly a reference to the services of the inauguration of the covenant and the dedication of the temple.

Now if Christ fulfilled dedication that included entering the most holy place as Moses anointed all of the vessels.



Lev 8:10 Then Moses took the anointing oil and anointed the tabernacle and all that was in it, and consecrated them.


Therefore Davidson, Hasel, etc. take the view of the inauguration, admitting that Christ went into the Most Holy Place. There is no way to inaugurate it all and fulfill the type if not.

This of course goes against the traditional view, represented by the following quotes:


Sabbath, March 24th, 1849, we had a sweet, and very interesting meeting with the Brethren at Topsham, Me. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us, and I was taken off in the Spirit to the City of the living God. There I was shown that the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, relating to the shut door, could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out, with all their importance, and for God's people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary, where the Ark is, containing the ten commandments. This door was not opened, until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary in 1844. Then, Jesus rose up, and shut the door in the Holy Place, and opened the door in the Most Holy, and passed within the second vail, where he now stands by the Ark; and where the faith of Israel now reaches. {RH, August 1, 1849 par. 2}

The door was not opened until 1844, which is incompatible with an inauguration. which includes the most holy, as described in the type.


The enemies of the present truth have been trying to open the door of the holy place, that Jesus has shut, and to close the door of the most holy place, which He opened in 1844, where the ark is, containing the two tables of stone on which are written the ten commandments by the finger of Jehovah. {EW 43.1}


Here she describes it in terms of the open and shut doors. It was again not until 1844 that He entered, again, incompatible with the dedication pictured in Hebrews.

Ellen White is also in perfect accord with the statement of Hiram Edson in his account of the cornfield vision where the idea was first raised:

“Heaven seemed open to my view, and I saw distinctly and clearly, that instead of our High Priest coming out of the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary to come to this earth on the tenth day of the seventh month, at the end of the 2300 days, that he for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of that sanctuary; and that he had a work to perform in the Most Holy before coming to this earth.

Uriah Smith
http://www.adventistarchives.org/doc...-07/index.djvu
We are now prepared for the inquiry, Has the
cleansing of the Sanctuary commenced'?. It was told
Daniel,, "Unto two" thousand and three hundred days
then shall ,the Sanctuary be cleansed." Clearly
enough those days are in the past. Unless: there-
fore the words of the angel have failed, a work has
commenced called the cleansing of the Sanctuary
but there is no work either in the type or out of the
type, to which this expression ever has been, or ever
can be, applied, except to the entrance of the high
priest into the Most Holy place, and his ministration
while there. …
God's people are permitted to look
by an eye of faith, into the inner apartment of the
true Tabernacle : they there behold the ark of God,
and their attention is called at once to the law con-
tained within it ; and the fact that there is now a spe-
cial movement taking place in regard to that violated
law, is proof that the second apartment of the Sanc-
tuary has been opened, and the ark of the testament
is seen.

Just as EGW does Smith relates the moving of Jesus into the Most Holy place to the opening of a door which had previously been closed. Andross in replying to Ballenger seems to be the first one who used an inauguration theory.

So if the pioneers were so clear, why have many of our scholars, writing the official apologetics in the Daniel and Revelation series, admitted to Jesus entering into the MHP for a dedication? Because Hebrews is clear that all of the vessels were cleansed. They just hope to avoid the implication that there was also day of atonement imagery.


24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now we begin to see clear day of atonement references:

A. Verse 25 makes it plain that Jesus paralleled and exceeded the day of atonement ritual. Once a year the High Priest would go into the holy places with blood not his own. But Christ did it once, going into God’s presence. This reference to the every year ministry is an allusion back to the first verses, outlining that this happenened on the day of atonement. The dedication is not in view here because it was carried out not by the high priest but by Moses, (the leader of the people, Jesus is both Priest and King), and it was not done every year.

It is the High Priest who Jesus is contrasted with, who had one distinct role, emphasized at the beginning of the chapter in the description of the earthly service.

He is contrasted with the YEARLY work, year after year, of the High priest. These are day of atonement references.

B. He appeared ONCE at the end of the ages to put away sin. There is no more applying of blood for atonement later.

C. He appeared in God’s presence. In the earthly type God made it clear where His presence was:
Exo 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you. 22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

Lev 16:2 and the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.

Num 7:89 And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him.


These texts make it clear that God met with them above the mercy seat. Note also this text from Hebrews expressing a similar note:

Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Here we see reference again to the High Priest and we may approach him at the throne of grace which certainly seems a parallel idea to the mercy seat, where God said He would meet with them.

Moreover we have another text in Hebrews that relates to Christ’s Priestly ministry that also references cleansing:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification ([FONT=&quot]καθαρισμὸν[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ποιησάμενος[/FONT]) for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Here we see the cleansing for sins offered in the past tense. There is no delayed second offering in 1844 to complete the atonement. This is the fulfillment of the ministration of blood in the day of atonement.

Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins

Here again we have reference to the yearly sacrifices of blood and goats, another reference to the day of atonement. The old service was an annual reminder of sin, but Christ’s actually took away sin.

I am not the only one who sees these as day of atonement allusions either. Here is a quote from William Johnsson in the Daniel and Revelation committee work in his article "Day of Atonement Allusions". He lists 9:24, etc. as a passage among those that clearly allude to the day of atonement.

The context clearly points to a Day of Atonement allusion (high priest...yearly...blood [cf. 9:7]

Here he is again on 10:1-4

The specifications of "year after year" and "blood of bulls and goats" again indicate a Day of Atonement setting.

He then lists 8 other possible allusions which might point to the Day of Atonement.

Here is Alwyn Salom in his appendix article in the Daniel and Revelation committee series verse 12:

The characteristic service of the Day of Atonement here referred to (cf. vs 7), was located in the inner compartment of the earthly sanctuary.

And on 24:

The reference in the context of the Day of Atonement service of the earthly high priest is not to the outer compartment of the sanctuary.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice and then SAT DOWN at the right hand of God. His work of applying the blood was done. He now intercedes from God's right hand in our behalf. It is contrasted with the earthly priests who can never take away sins. The earthly priest never sat down because his work never was finished. But Christ’s work is finished.

Jesus by ONE sacrifice perfected those who are being sanctified.

It should be noted that we now have a reference to the daily, with every priest, not just the High Priest. So now we have had reference to the red heifer, the inauguration of covenant, the dedication of the temple, the yearly apex of the day of atonement with the high priest, yearly, blood of bulls and goats entering with blood not his own. All of the sacrifices are summed up here. Jesus OFFERED for all time one sacrifice. He ministered it once, then sat down.


While we emphasize the type and its fulfillment the whole text, like the rest of Hebrews, is actually a contrast. Just as Jesus was better than Moses and better than angels His ministration is better.

The old High Priest would die and needed to be replaced as we learned in an earlier chapter. But Jesus had an indestructible life. The old High Priest had to be from the tribe of Levi. But Jesus was from Judah, after the order of Melchizedek. He was Priest and King. In the old service the High Priest went through the same cycle every year entering only once per year (limited access), only with blood not his own, only with incense to shield him, and with everything perfect or he would be destroyed. But this High Priest entered not with blood of bulls and goats, and not over and over, but once, for all with his own blood. He did not enter only once and then withdraw quickly to repeat it the next year but SAT DOWN in God’s presence and has made a new way for us to have direct access to God . That was the very thing they did not have in the old system. Only the High Priest had access. But now we can come boldly before the throne of grace through the new and living way opened for us.

The very issue over τα αγια (ta hagia) also misses the contrast. The earthly is spelled out in terms of a two apartment sanctuary. But the limited access of the old sanctuary is not what is pictured in the heavently sanctuary. Instead we see that it is heaven itself:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Here it emphasizes that Christ entered heaven itself to appear in the presence of God. For those who say that ta hagia ALWAYS means the holy place compartment, if the holy place is heaven itself....what is the most holy in your scheme? There is nothing else to be! Heaven is heaven and it is not divided into two compartments. That was an illustration. But the heavenly reality is not a two apartment building but heaven itself in God's presence. Christ entered there for us to present His sacrifice before the Holy God. We make a mistake when we interpret the fulfillment in light of the type. The book of Hebrews shows over and over again how the type was not the reality. The reality far transcends the type.

Note this reference from the Daniel and Revelation committee in regards to the translation of ta hagia. These are our own denominational scholars who are tasked with defending the Adventist view:

The committee believes that ta hagia should be regarded as a general term that should be translated in most instances as “sanctuary” unless the context clearly indicates otherwise (such as in chapter 9:2, 3).

Jesus entered once for all into God's presence, and reigns with the Father on the throne. He intercedes for us from that throne.

Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

1Pe 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

It does show him standing up for Stephen, but still at God's right hand.

Act 7:55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Act 7:56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

The sitting down, completing the atoning application of blood, llustrates His finished work. He now is waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool, He is reigning with God.



Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"
Heb 10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


If the covenant was sealed by the death of Christ, and the covenant was that God would remember their sins no more, what more is to be done? where is there further "offereing for sin?"


Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

There is a new and living way to enter the holy places by the blood of Christ and we have access to the great Priest.


This idea of a completed offering of the sacrifice is not in accord with Adventist teaching that an additional ministration started in 1844.

Now the day of atonement in totality is not complete yet. Jesus has yet to exit the temple and greet the people. That happens at His coming. Nor has the final putting away of sinners happened yet. That happens at the great white throne judgment. But the offering of the blood of the sacrifice and the atonement made is done. Now the worshipers either accept it or not, just as in the type where they either availed themselves of the sacrifice or were “cut off.”
 
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tall73

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Apart from whether EGW contradicted the Bible there is the question of whether she contradicted herself:

EGW on John the Baptist


John's life was without pleasure. It was sorrowful and self-denying. He heralded the first advent of Christ, and then was not permitted to witness the miracles, and enjoy the power manifested by him. He knew that when Jesus should establish himself as a teacher, he must die. His voice was seldom heard, except in the wilderness. His life was lonely. He did not cling to his father's family, to enjoy their society, but left them in order to fulfill his mission. Multitudes left the busy cities and villages, and flocked to the wilderness to hear the words of the wonderful,
30
singular Prophet. John laid the axe at the root of the tree. He reproved sin fearless of consequences, and prepared the way for the Lamb of God. {1SG 29.2} (1858)
___________________________________________

John assured his disciples that Jesus was the promised Messiah, the Saviour of the world. As his work was closing, he taught his disciples to look to Jesus, and follow him as the great teacher. John's life, with the exception of the joy he experienced in witnessing the success of his mission, was without pleasure. It was one of sorrow and self-denial. He who heralded the first advent of Christ, was not permitted to personally hear, nor to witness the power manifested by him. John's voice was seldom heard, except in the wilderness. His life was lonely. Multitudes had flocked to the wilderness to hear the words of the wonderful prophet. He had laid the ax at the root of the tree. He had reproved sin, fearless of the consequences, and prepared the way for the ministry of Christ. {2SP 69.1} (1877)
___________________________________________

John did not feel strong enough to stand the great pressure of temptation he would meet in mingling with society. He feared his character would be molded according to the prevailing customs of the Jews; and he chose to separate himself from the world, and make the wilderness his home. He denied himself the ordinary comforts of life; his food was simple; his clothing, a garment made of camel's hair, and confined about the waist by a leathern girdle. But although John passed his childhood and youth in the desert, he was not unreconciled to his life of hardship and seclusion. So far from being lonely, gloomy, or morose, he enjoyed his life of simplicity and retirement, and his temperate habits kept all his senses unperverted. {YI, January 7, 1897 par. 2}
___________________________________________

Aside from the joy that John found in his mission, his life had been one of sorrow. His voice had been seldom heard except in the wilderness. His was a lonely lot. And he was not permitted to see the result of his own labors. It was not his privilege to be with Christ and witness the manifestation of divine power attending the greater light. It was not for him to see the blind restored to sight, the sick healed, and the dead raised to life. He did not behold the light that shone through every word of Christ, shedding glory upon the promises of prophecy. The least disciple who saw Christ's mighty works and heard His words was in this sense more highly privileged than John the Baptist, and therefore is said to have been greater than he. {DA 220.3} (1898)
 
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djconklin

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Therefore Davidson, Hasel, etc. take the view of the inauguration, admitting that Christ went into the Most Holy Place. There is no way to inaugurate it all and fulfill the type if not.

This of course goes against the traditional view,

Didn't Ellen White say that in the last days we could expect to learn new things that we had never seen before?

As an example of something I just recently learned see the foreverness of God's Law and listen to the sermon by Dwight Nelson on the subject.
 
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djconklin

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Apart from whether EGW contradicted the Bible there is the question of whether she contradicted herself:

EGW on John the Baptist

John's life was without pleasure. It was sorrowful and self-denying. He heralded the first advent of Christ, and then was not permitted to witness the miracles, and enjoy the power manifested by him. He knew that when Jesus should establish himself as a teacher, he must die. His voice was seldom heard, except in the wilderness. His life was lonely. He did not cling to his father's family, to enjoy their society, but left them in order to fulfill his mission. Multitudes left the busy cities and villages, and flocked to the wilderness to hear the words of the wonderful,
30
singular Prophet. John laid the axe at the root of the tree. He reproved sin fearless of consequences, and prepared the way for the Lamb of God. {1SG 29.2} (1858)

Somewhat, like John I have a simple lifestyle. It's somewhat after Thoreau's "Simplify, simplify." But, that doesn't mean that my days are all bright sunshone. On the contrary, like John it can be very lonely, gloomy and I can get quite morose. Those are two very different things. One is outside, the other inside.

Therefore, EGW did not contradict herself.

To say that she did speaks volumes about our reading and thinking ability. it is a reflection of our nation's lousy educational system.

To give two personal examples:

I was at a lecture where we were told to read a one page opinion article from a major news magazine to prepare us for the lecture. I did that. Then as the speaker was going along he mentioned a specific denomination and I stopped and said to myself that there was nothing in the article that mentioned them. So, I scanned the article twice (while trying to listen to the lecture at the same time!) and I couldn't find a thing. So, after the lecture I went up and asked the speaker about it. He scanned the article himself and pointed to a one sentence paragraph that had a single word that was rather unique to the denomination in it. I had never seen it.

Or, just recently (see the foreverness of God's Law thread) I found out that the material for first copy of God's Law came from His throne. I never knew that and yet I've been studying the Bible for 40+years!

So, I can say: been there, done that, flat out wrong. ;)
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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DJ wrote:
Ellen White did not originate most of these ideas ... Really?!? And how do you know that?
I know church history. Aside from the IJ most everything that EGW wrote about was written about at some time in Christian history. But if you believe I am wrong please point us to something orgininal that came from Ellen White. Even the IJ stuff came from those around her. I mean something of some value not something like she saw Enoch on a saturn like planet. Although even with that one there are similaritites to Joseph Smiths idea of people living on the sun.

Now this is not a criticism of EGW because like her I don't really incorporate anything new into my Christian theology either. Maybe rearrange things but I can't think of anything new that I have discovered. I just post this because DJ asked: " Ellen White did not originate most of these ideas ... Really?!? And how do you know that?"
 
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djconklin

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But if you believe I am wrong please point us to something orgininal that came from Ellen White.

I didn't make the claim; so I don't have to provide the evidence to support it. If I make a claim it is because I already have the facts at hand to back it up.

I mean something of some value not something like she saw Enoch on a saturn like planet.

Thank you for being smarter than some critics who claim that she saw Enoch on Saturn.

I just post this because DJ can't seem to grasp the concept that EGW did not originate most of her ideas.

And I don't have the facts to back up my claim.
 
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