1844.....

[DrStupid_Ben]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place

From your study, what convinces you that 2300days is 1day=1year?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

From your study, what convinces you that 2300days is 1day=1year?

there are only a few options
option 1 date of book
a. 2nd century - if you take Daniel written in the 2nd century, bc. the you religate to a piece of propaganda literature or the Maccabean Wars.
b. 6th century - if you take Daniel written in the 6th century then you must take it as reads and there fore inspired because the visions are predicting the rise and fall of empires before they happen. how do you explain that except by divine revelation.

option 2.

a. 1 day = 1 day - if 1 day = 1 day then find the start of the 2300 day count off the 2300 day find corresponding event. you only have 3 options.

b. 1 day = 1 year if 1 day = 1year then find the start of the 2300 day count off the 2300 day find corresponding event. you only have 3 options

c. 1 day = 1000 years - 1 day = 1000 years then find the start of the 2300 years count off the 2300 years find corresponding event. you only have 3 options. by the way if this is the option then sit down we are going to be here a while.

option 3 start of prophecy

a. 535 b.c - exiles return to jerselaum. 70 year according jeremiah the release from captivity 605-535
b. 517/16 b.c - temple rebuilt 70 year prophecy applies here too 587/86-517/16
c. 457 b.c. - political power restored completely autonomous rule. a stand alone date with no corresponding 70 years date.


option 4
a. d=d
1. 535 + 6.5 yeas
2. 517/16 + 6.5 yeas
3. 457 + 6.5 years
b d=y
WHAT HAPPENED ON THESE DATES.

1. 535 + 2300 years = 1766
2. 517/516 + 2300 years =1784
3. 457 + 2300 years =1844

WHAT HAPPENED ON THESE DATES

C. D=1000 YEARS= YOU CAN FIGURE THIS ONE OUT YOUR SELF.

the only thing i can figure out is that somethng happened in 1844

 

[michaeneu]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place

I would like to have someone here tell me what they think happened in 1844 instead of the IJ. I don’t believe in the IG either but if one accepts the day for the year concerning the prophecy something commenced at that time. I’ve read the entire thread and my question is to those who don’t believe the doctrine of the IJ, but do believe the event culminated in 1844.
Michael

 

[StormyOne]

I would like to have someone here tell me what they think happened in 1844 instead of the IG. I don’t believe in the IG either but if one accepts the day for the year concerning the prophecy something commenced at that time. I’ve read the entire thread and my question is to those who don’t believe the doctrine of the IG, but do believe the event culminated in 1844.
Michael

something might have happened, or might not... how would we really know.... the day for a year concept is not consistently applied.... so the whole IJ belief is flawed in my opinion....

 

[michaeneu]

something might have happened, or might not... how would we really know.... the day for a year concept is not consistently applied.... so the whole IJ belief is flawed in my opinion....

There are several reasons that erev boker cannot be interpreted as a literal day. If taken literally then Antiochus Epiphanies becomes the little horn but he does not fulfill the prophecy. Let me explain.

The little horn is the source of transgressions against the sanctuary of Yahweh.

“And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation…” Daniel 8:12-13

As in the preceding chapters of Daniel the latter part of the chapter recapitulates and gives us greater revelation about the time of these transgressions by the little horn.

"Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people." Daniel 8:22-24

In speaking of the same transgression of verses 12 and 13 they are revealed in coming to their full at the latter time of the four kingdoms resulting in Alexander’s demise, which we’ve all heard before. Unequivocally these transgressors refer to Rome that came to its full as the Greek empires declined. Moreover, Rome and not Antiochus Epiphanies destroyed the mighty and holy people. To the contrary, the mighty and holy people defeated Antiochus Epiphanies. Further, the transgressors magnify and stand against the Prince of princes, which can only be Yahshua. Yahshua is the only Prince of princes (Revelation 1:5 and 19:16). Antiochus Epiphanies lived almost two centuries before Yahshua.

"And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand." Daniel 8:25

This invariably refers to Daniel 2:34 and the stone "cut out without hands." These transgressors persist until the time of the end when Yahshua returns to destroy the Roman papal system—which is also the beast from the sea.


Consequently, the only power that can be properly interpreted as the little horn is Rome, but what also must be considered is that it is Rome as its pagan and papal forms because this power is broken without hand.

In this context erev boker has only significance as years. It is no coincidence that a great awakening occurred over the world concerning this prophecy leading up to 1844. The ministration of Yahshua in the heavenly temple became the life’s work of many during this time. The papacy had suffered the deadly wound and was not healed before the rise of Protestantism made strides in restoring the righteousness of the spiritual sacrifices for a time to bring in a great harvest. But the final harvest foreshadowed by the autumnal feasts is still pending; anti-types have not met all types.

But the question still persists, the IJ cannot be upheld by the scriptures and so the event of 1844 must represent something else that has been overlooked.

Michael

 

[mva1985]

How does the old testament completion address the day of atonement( the cleansing of the sanctuary). I can see the fulfillment of the sacraficial service since Christ became the Lamb slain, but what act of Christ fulfilles the cleansing and blotting out of recorded sin. and what or who was the scapegoat which all the sins are placed on and sent out of the camp.

Question: In the heavenly Sanctuary model at what point does the scapegoat have all the sins placed upon him and he is sent out of the camp?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place

Actually as many have pointed out our IJ view is a chain of events and a great many of them don't work, in other words the chain has multiple breaks and it can't have those breaks to end up with our 1844 concept.

I have posted the following several places, including this forum I think and yet have never gotten an answer. So here one more time:

Is the Seventy Sevens "cut off" from the 2300

One of the key points that will be brought out in most lesson studies this coming week is summed up in the following from Kenneth Hart’s notes:


9. Notice that the word used in Daniel 9:24 is translated “cut off”, “determined”, “decreed”, etc. The basic Hebrew word means “to cut off”. Cut off from what? The only plausible explanation is that this 490-year period is cut off from the 2300-year prophecy given in Daniel 8:14. If this is not the case then we have no identifiable points to which we can attach the 2300 day-year prophecy.
Dan 9:24
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. (NIV)


Strongs number and Definition 2852 chathak (khaw-thak'); a primitive root; properly, to cut off, i.e. (figuratively) to decree: KJV-- determine.


I don’t know of any translation that actually translates the word as “cut off”. The particular word 2852 chathak is only used here in Daniel 9:24. It appears only wishful thinking that leads to the idea of meaning cut off from the 2300 evening and morning prophecy. As that prophecy did not really have any need for a starting date since it was dated by the desecration of the temple. Only if you assume that you cannot see this temple, i.e. that it is in heaven would you need a starting date.


Dan 8:13-14
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled-- the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"
14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." (NIV)


Here is how C. Mervyn Maxwell in his book the Magnificent Disappointment explains why you should take the70 sevens from the 2,300 days:


This is the decree that was to start the seventy weeks. And inasmuch as Gabriel’s reference to the decree was intended to help Daniel and us understand the 2,300 days, we know that the 2,300 days also began in 457 B.C. (page 42)


Since in both Dan. 2, 7 and 8 Daniel gives wide ranging prophecies which apparently run from the time of Babylon to the time of the Advent of Christ or the second coming of Christ depending on your view. It is hard to say that Daniel 9 is restricted to the 2300 evenings and mornings, that is, that it is an elaboration on the 2300 days. Clearly that was not what Daniel was concerned with at the start of the chapter or with his prayer as he specifically refers to the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah. If this was written in around the 500's B.C. time period there was no temple. To assume that the decree to rebuild the temple marks the beginning of the time period where the Temple is desecrated makes no sense at all. Yet this is what our traditional understanding has said. -457 + 2300 = 1843 + the year zero = 1844


So for the 2300 days to stand for the time of the desecration of the temple, the temple has to be desecrated from before it’s construction. If the sanctuary is not the one which Daniel was expecting, i.e. the rebuilt sanctuary of the decree, then the Adventist view has to have the sanctuary in heaven be trampled and desecrated by the little horn from the time of the decree to rebuild the earthly temple. In which case even before Christ came the heavenly sanctuary would have been desecrated. So in Adventist terminology from 4 centuries before any knew of the Messiah's work of intercession His work of intercession was being desecrated.


As Bill O’Reilly would say, “tell me where I am wrong?”

 

[Adventist Dissident]

there are only a few options
option 1 date of book
a. 2nd century - if you take Daniel written in the 2nd century, bc. the you religate to a piece of propaganda literature or the Maccabean Wars.
b. 6th century - if you take Daniel written in the 6th century then you must take it as reads and there fore inspired because the visions are predicting the rise and fall of empires before they happen. how do you explain that except by divine revelation.

option 2.

a. 1 day = 1 day - if 1 day = 1 day then find the start of the 2300 day count off the 2300 day find corresponding event. you only have 3 options.

b. 1 day = 1 year if 1 day = 1year then find the start of the 2300 day count off the 2300 day find corresponding event. you only have 3 options

c. 1 day = 1000 years - 1 day = 1000 years then find the start of the 2300 years count off the 2300 years find corresponding event. you only have 3 options. by the way if this is the option then sit down we are going to be here a while.

option 3 start of prophecy

a. 535 b.c - exiles return to jerselaum. 70 year according jeremiah the release from captivity 605-535
b. 517/16 b.c - temple rebuilt 70 year prophecy applies here too 587/86-517/16
c. 457 b.c. - political power restored completely autonomous rule. a stand alone date with no corresponding 70 years date.


option 4
a. d=d
1. 535 + 6.5 yeas
2. 517/16 + 6.5 yeas
3. 457 + 6.5 years
b d=y
WHAT HAPPENED ON THESE DATES.

1. 535 + 2300 years = 1766
2. 517/516 + 2300 years =1784
3. 457 + 2300 years =1844

WHAT HAPPENED ON THESE DATES

C. D=1000 YEARS= YOU CAN FIGURE THIS ONE OUT YOUR SELF.

the only thing i can figure out is that somethng happened in 1844

FYI i am no longer convinced of this. I am convinced nothing happened in 1844

 

[djconklin]

the day for a year concept is not consistently applied

Can you give us concrete examples?

Notice that the word used in Daniel 9:24 is translated “cut off”, “determined”, “decreed”, etc. The basic Hebrew word means “to cut off”. Cut off from what?

The Hebrew word "chathak" means "to divide, determine" not "cut off". In the LXX they used the word "krino" meaning "to judge, decide." In this case then, the best translation of the word is "determine."

And the author goes on to assume that it is "cut off" from the 2300 days. It is better to not make an assumption that is without proof.

a. 2nd century - if you take Daniel written in the 2nd century, bc. the you religate to a piece of propaganda literature or the Maccabean Wars.

Unfortunately, there is no concrete evidence for this option. It is far more likely (based on the evidence we do have; see http://www.666man.net/Dating_the_Book_of_Daniel_by_David_Conklin.html -- 84 different lines of evdience.) that the book was written during the time frame it portrays.

FYI i am no longer convinced of this. I am convinced nothing happened in 1844

If that was true then we'd have to ask why did God give a prophecy that points to that date if nothing happened? It isn't logical or reasonable.

 

[StormyOne]

Can you give us concrete examples?

sure I could, however given the fact that you believe as you do, and I am not here to dissuade you from that believe, the point would be what?

 

[daro2096]

I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place

Compare the visions of Daniel 2, 7, 8 and 9 and 10 to 12

In Daniel 2 we have:
Babylon - gold
Medo-Persia - silver
Greece - brass
Pagan Rome - iron
Divided Europe - iron and clay
Second Coming - stone

Daniel 7 we have:
Babylon - lion
Medo-Persia - bear
Greece - leopard
Pagan Rome - terrible beast
Divided Europe - ten horns
Little Horn
Judgment
Second Coming

Daniel 8(which continues in 9) we have:
Medo-Persia - ram
Greece - goat
Pagan Rome - little horn
Papal Rome(the Little Horn)
Sanctuary cleansed
Second Coming

Daniel 10 to 12 we have:
Medo-Persia(the four kings)
Greece(the first king and then it is divided to the four winds of heaven)
Pagan and Papal Rome(king of the north and the south)
Time of the End
Second Coming

The vision is repeated four times each time new information is added.

Using the visions we can come to the conclusion that judgment and the sanctuary being cleansed and the time of the end are all the same events.

 

[daro2096]

FYI i am no longer convinced of this. I am convinced nothing happened in 1844

Well since the event happened in heaven of course nothing happened on earth in 1844.

Jesus on October 22nd 1844 moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place and judgment began and is still going on today. Does this mean that Jesus' work in the Holy Place is finished? No, of course not. Even on Atonement Day in Israel the priests would still ministered in both compartments.

When Jesus said it was finished on the cross he was refering to the earthly mission. Even in the sanctuary when the lamb was killed that wasn't the end of the story. The sinner walked away free but the priest still had some work to. The sinner transferred his sins onto the head of the lamb and then the priest took the blood of the animal into the Holy Place where it would be sprinkled on the altar of incense(someone correct me if wrong). Then once a year on Atonement Day the High Priest would enter the Most Holy Place with the blood of the Lord's Goat and sprinkle the blood on the Mercy Seat. Then the High Priest would symbolically take onto himself the sins confessed in the sanctually for the last 12 months and confess them and place them on the head of the scapegoat which would be taken away into the wilderness far away from the camp(tradition says the scapegoat was killed once lead into the wilderness to make sure it didn't wonder back into the camp).

This is what Jesus is doing right now in the heavenly sanctuary but instead of goat's and lamb's blood he is using his own blood.

 

[daro2096]

When Jesus died on the cross that fulfilled Passover. When he was resurrrected that fulfilled Firstfruits.
When the Holy Spirit decended on the followers fifty days after resurrection that fulfilled the Feast of Weeks and Pentecost.

We currently live in the time of Atonement Day.

All the feasts have been fulfilled, there is only one left to be fulfilled and that is the feast of Tabernacles.

 

[StormyOne]

no one has any proof that anything happened in heaven in 1844.... that is the flaw... it cannot be proven one way or another....

 

[DIMPLESTEN]

good morning everyone! I am a newbie to this site and is just trying to find my way around. If i have entered the wrong thread let me know. I am have been a backslider for many, many years and is on my way back to the church and was just looking for fellowship amongst members of the sda church. I am still refreshing my teaching on the church and Ellen G White again, as it has been 20 yrs since i have been an active member.If this is not the thread, pls let me know and direct me to one that i may fellowship. thanks.

 

[StormyOne]

good morning everyone! I am a newbie to this site and is just trying to find my way around. If i have entered the wrong thread let me know. I am have been a backslider for many, many years and is on my way back to the church and was just looking for fellowship amongst members of the sda church. I am still refreshing my teaching on the church and Ellen G White again, as it has been 20 yrs since i have been an active member.If this is not the thread, pls let me know and direct me to one that i may fellowship. thanks.

welcome... you can fellowship anywhere on the forum you wish, I guess the question that needs to be answered is what kind of fellowship are you seeking? Here in this sub forum we kind of bounce around thoughts and ideas about any and everything, nothing is off limits, so that may or may not be something you want to do right now.... you are more than welcome to share and interact with us, I am just kinda letting you know what to expect....

 

[sentipente]

Dimple, you may want to stick to the main forum. If a post rubs you the wrong way just ignore it until you get your sea legs under you.

 

[sentipente]

David, have you thought these things through or are you merely restating what someone told you?