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1844.....

StormyOne

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“Our fondest hopes…were blasted, and such a spirit of weeping came over us as I never experienced before… We wept, and wept, till the day dawn.”

That was Hiram Edson’s commentary on the early hours of Oct. 23, 1844. He spoke those words 160 years ago. Do they ring any bells at all for Adventists in 2004?



If you’re new in these parts you need to know that the roots of Adventism go back to that Great Disappointment of 1844, when thousands of devout Christians believed that Jesus was going to return on Oct. 22. Daniel 8:14 was the key verse: “Unto two thousand three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” The “sanctuary” was the earth; the cleansing was Jesus’s second coming; and the 2,300 days were actually years, taking them to 1843-44. They set the date, waited until midnight, then wept until the sun rose again on the same old earth.



Let’s look at all that: the pain and embarrassment, picking up the pieces; and sharpening the focus.



Pain and Embarrassment



If the survivors of the Great Disappointment itself had to weather the mockery of unbelievers, those who have followed them in Adventism have faced quite a different kind of pain: fear and shuddering in the presence of a holy God. But that too is the experience of an older generation. It’s foreign territory to most of their children. Can I tell you what it’s like? Probably not. But at least I should try.



Realizing that the earth itself was not the sanctuary to be cleansed, our Adventist pioneers focused on the only sanctuary left, the one in heaven. And the angel Gabriel himself had told Daniel that the vision of the cleansed sanctuary was for the “time of the end” (Daniel 8:17). That would mean it’s for us. Now.

http://www.atoday.com/265.0.html
 

StormyOne

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It is significant that this attempt to defend the sanctuary doctrine and 1844 was not made by one of the scholars of the SDA denomination. Very few of this group could be persuaded to do what Goldstein has tried to do. They know too much and think too highly of their reputations. Adventist scholars never write on the sanctuary doctrine and 1844 for non-Adventist journals or readers.

Clifford is certainly correct when he tells us, ‘The mass of American Adventism couldn’t give an intelligent study on that doctrine (1844 and the Investigative Judgement) if their eternal destiny depended on it... You probably haven’t heard a sermon on it or read about it in years’ (p.11).

True, because many, many Adventist pastors have known for a long time that the traditional SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgement is not to be found in Scripture.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org.au/panic_th.htm
 
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StormyOne

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The issue of 1844 and the Investigative Judgment can be easily resolved. All you have to do is read Hebrews 9 in any accurate modern translation.

It is a well-established Christian principle that the Old Testament is to be understood in the light of the New Testament. (The doctrine of 1844 and the Investigative Judgment seeks to interpret the New in the light of the Old.)

Hebrews is the only book in the Bible that examines the meaning of the Day of Atonement ceremonies. The early verses of Hebrews 9 tell us that the two apartments of the earthly sanctuary represent the two covenants and the two eras of the Old Testament and the New. Verses 8, 12, and 25 say that Christ fulfilled the Day of Atonement-type by his death-and-resurrection atonement. Hebrews 9:23 (compare 1:3 where the Greek root for ‘cleanse’ is the same) tells us the heavenly sanctuary was cleansed by the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. The very heart of the ancient Day of Atonement was the sacrifice. There was no sacrifice in 1844.

Christ Is Sufficient

Let none think that when Jesus cried, ‘It is finished!’ on the cross he really meant, ‘It is begun.’ Neither should any miss the glorious truth that Hebrews clearly teaches: Christ entered the heavenly Most Holy Place by virtue of his death. (Scripture’s symbolism says he entered the Most Holy Place through the veil, or curtain, which is His body, 10:19.)

Ever since Christ made His grand entrance, the way into the presence of God has stood open for the guilty. Christ has dealt with sin, and reconciled the world. Salvation has been achieved for all. It is not our sins dragged up again in the Investigative Judgment that excludes us from salvation. Only unbelief in the sacrifice of Christ can exclude us from God’s loving gift of perfect righteousness and eternal glory......

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org.au/panic_th.htm
 
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jabechler

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Sorry but I must be on the defense on this one. The investigative Judgement is a tenant of adventism and is most certainly from scripture. The new testament is only understood by undestanding the old. We must remember the 2 witness for the end time are the old and new testament. If we put away the old testamnet then we become confused as to the plan of salvation just as all other protestant churches. The investgative judgement has its basis in the sanctuary model in the old testament. Psalms 77:13 Thy way O God is in the sanctuary.... Every tenant of our faith can be found in the layout and process of the sanctuary service. And remember the temple was build per instruction of God based on the original in Heaven.
 
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StormyOne

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jabechler said:
Sorry but I must be on the defense on this one. The investigative Judgement is a tenant of adventism and is most certainly from scripture. The new testament is only understood by undestanding the old. We must remember the 2 witness for the end time are the old and new testament. If we put away the old testamnet then we become confused as to the plan of salvation just as all other protestant churches. The investgative judgement has its basis in the sanctuary model in the old testament. Psalms 77:13 Thy way O God is in the sanctuary.... Every tenant of our faith can be found in the layout and process of the sanctuary service. And remember the temple was build per instruction of God based on the original in Heaven.
thanks for sharing your views.... I don't share them... your premise assumes that if something is discarded it will negate our understanding... Jesus died for all humankind, His sacrifice was enough... the beliefs that we have formulated based on faulty interpretation will not negate that salvation comes through Christ... The IJ makes no sense from a practical standpoint...
 
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DrStupid_Ben

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jabechler said:
Sorry but I must be on the defense on this one. The investigative Judgement is a tenant of adventism and is most certainly from scripture. The new testament is only understood by undestanding the old. We must remember the 2 witness for the end time are the old and new testament. If we put away the old testamnet then we become confused as to the plan of salvation just as all other protestant churches. The investgative judgement has its basis in the sanctuary model in the old testament. Psalms 77:13 Thy way O God is in the sanctuary.... Every tenant of our faith can be found in the layout and process of the sanctuary service. And remember the temple was build per instruction of God based on the original in Heaven.


The problem is that the old testament doesn't support the ij. The new testament shows us the fulfillment of the old sanctuary by Christ's redeeming work. To say that that means you are negating the old testament just doesn't fit. The two testaments work in partnership. One pointing the way, the other showing the fullfilment.

How are other denominations confused about salvation? It seems to me that it is us Adventists who are the ones confused. Christ died for our sins (fullstop). After he rose from the dead, he ascended to his father's right hand. The gospel writers highlighted the tearing of the curtain in the temple for a good reason. It is showing the fullfilment of the sanctuary message in Christ dying on the cross for our sins.
 
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StormyOne

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DrStupid_Ben said:
The problem is that the old testament doesn't support the ij. The new testament shows us the fulfillment of the old sanctuary by Christ's redeeming work. To say that that means you are negating the old testament just doesn't fit. The two testaments work in partnership. One pointing the way, the other showing the fullfilment.

How are other denominations confused about salvation? It seems to me that it is us Adventists who are the ones confused. Christ died for our sins (fullstop). After he rose from the dead, he ascended to his father's right hand. The gospel writers highlighted the tearing of the curtain in the temple for a good reason. It is showing the fullfilment of the sanctuary message in Christ dying on the cross for our sins.
amen....
 
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jabechler

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DrStupid_Ben said:
The problem is that the old testament doesn't support the ij. The new testament shows us the fulfillment of the old sanctuary by Christ's redeeming work. To say that that means you are negating the old testament just doesn't fit. The two testaments work in partnership. One pointing the way, the other showing the fullfilment.

How are other denominations confused about salvation? It seems to me that it is us Adventists who are the ones confused. Christ died for our sins (fullstop). After he rose from the dead, he ascended to his father's right hand. The gospel writers highlighted the tearing of the curtain in the temple for a good reason. It is showing the fullfilment of the sanctuary message in Christ dying on the cross for our sins.
How does the old testament completion address the day of atonement( the cleansing of the sanctuary). I can see the fulfillment of the sacraficial service since Christ became the Lamb slain, but what act of Christ fulfilles the cleansing and blotting out of recorded sin. and what or who was the scapegoat which all the sins are placed on and sent out of the camp.
 
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StormyOne

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jabechler said:
How does the old testament completion address the day of atonement( the cleansing of the sanctuary). I can see the fulfillment of the sacraficial service since Christ became the Lamb slain, but what act of Christ fulfilles the cleansing and blotting out of recorded sin. and what or who was the scapegoat which all the sins are placed on and sent out of the camp.
there is a danger in trying to make the symbol fit in every detail to the work Christ did for us... Remember in John 17 (before the crucifixion) Jesus prayed and in that prayer he said that he had completed his work..... think about that.... John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
 
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jabechler

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StormyOne said:
there is a danger in trying to make the symbol fit in every detail to the work Christ did for us... Remember in John 17 (before the crucifixion) Jesus prayed and in that prayer he said that he had completed his work..... think about that.... John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Then I pose this question. If all has been fulfilled and Christ has completed in his people all that scripture asks of us( justification and sanctification and Glorification then why has Christ not returned to take us home.
 
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StormyOne

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jabechler said:
Then I pose this question. If all has been fulfilled and Christ has completed in his people all that scripture asks of us( justification and sanctification and Glorification then why has Christ not returned to take us home.
its in the prayer and in the words of Jesus... in his prayer he prays that his followers be one so that the world might believe that he was sent. He also tells his disciples that the gospel will be preached as a "witness" then the end will come. Looking up the word witness in that context it means some type of evidence. Not teaching doctrine per se, but something that people can see, that will cause them to believe.... what is that something? That the followers of Jesus be one.

The early church had it briefly, then divisions crept in. Paul wrote repeatedly about it. Let no divisions be among you. I tried to talk to you as adults but because you have divisions, and arguing, and envy you are just babes....

What is the evidence that the followers of Christ are indeed followers of Christ? They are one.... they are unified.... what has not been completed is that we have not allowed the Holy Spirit to recreate the character of Christ in us, unifying us..... some times we appear to be going in the opposite direction....
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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StormyOne said:
its in the prayer and in the words of Jesus... in his prayer he prays that his followers be one so that the world might believe that he was sent. He also tells his disciples that the gospel will be preached as a "witness" then the end will come. Looking up the word witness in that context it means some type of evidence. Not teaching doctrine per se, but something that people can see, that will cause them to believe.... what is that something? That the followers of Jesus be one.

The early church had it briefly, then divisions crept in. Paul wrote repeatedly about it. Let no divisions be among you. I tried to talk to you as adults but because you have divisions, and arguing, and envy you are just babes....

What is the evidence that the followers of Christ are indeed followers of Christ? They are one.... they are unified.... what has not been completed is that we have not allowed the Holy Spirit to recreate the character of Christ in us, unifying us..... some times we appear to be going in the opposite direction....
The question is what do you mean by being unified. Unified in our allegence to God I would hope is your answer. Yet even in allegence to God there is room for disagreement. For instance I would acknowledge the importance of each believer having the mind of Christ. This is the same as saying that each believer listens to the prompting of God and follows after God. But I don't believe any man this side of heaven will attain the Character of Christ. Because that implies perfection, because Christ is sinless and we are not. So our unity is not found in being able to reproduce the character of Christ but found in our acceptance of the gift of life given by the character of God as revealed to us in Christ. To accept the gift requires that one acknowledge the giver and the giver is still in charge of when the gift fulfillment is made as frankly we don't have the ability to know when the second coming should be. If people want to speculate and have fun guessing at reasons that is fine as long as they realize they are only guessing. It may be quite a while and I think the gospel has not even been preached in the Christian world yet. But that is my speculation...but I think that I am pretty close to the mark but that is another subject.
 
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StormyOne

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RC_NewProtestants said:
The question is what do you mean by being unified. Unified in our allegence to God I would hope is your answer. Yet even in allegence to God there is room for disagreement. For instance I would acknowledge the importance of each believer having the mind of Christ. This is the same as saying that each believer listens to the prompting of God and follows after God. But I don't believe any man this side of heaven will attain the Character of Christ. Because that implies perfection, because Christ is sinless and we are not. So our unity is not found in being able to reproduce the character of Christ but found in our acceptance of the gift of life given by the character of God as revealed to us in Christ. To accept the gift requires that one acknowledge the giver and the giver is still in charge of when the gift fulfillment is made as frankly we don't have the ability to know when the second coming should be. If people want to speculate and have fun guessing at reasons that is fine as long as they realize they are only guessing. It may be quite a while and I think the gospel has not even been preached in the Christian world yet. But that is my speculation...but I think that I am pretty close to the mark but that is another subject.
It is not up to the believer to attain the character of Christ, that work belongs to the Holy Spirit... the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit as he transforms the life.....
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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It is not up to the believer to attain the character of Christ, that work belongs to the Holy Spirit... the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit as he transforms the life.....

I agree with the first phrase that it is not up to the believer to attain the character of Christ. I agree with the second phrase also that the Holy Spirit Transforms the life. So I guess we are in agreement that the issue is not attaining the character of Christ.

So the only thing I left out of your quote is this phrase:
"that work belongs to the Holy Spirit", if that work is really left up to the Holy Spirit, that work being to bring the believer to character perfection i.e the character of Christ, then the Holy Spirit has fallen down on the job pretty badly for nearly 2000 years. Now since I believe that the Holy Spirit is God and just as perfect as Christ I don't accept the idea that the Holy Spirit has neglected His job. So it would seem that God has not designed for humans to attain the character of Christ this side of heaven. After the second coming when the corruptible is changed to incorruptible in the twinkling of the eye. Then it would be conceivable that the change in charcter is made. For now we see darkly but then we will see face to face. Which again leaves us with unity being something other then having attained the character of Christ unless by that phrase you mean to love one another which is certainly the character of God and certainly our goal though again we often fail.
 
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StormyOne

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RC_NewProtestants said:
So the only thing I left out of your quote is this phrase:
"that work belongs to the Holy Spirit", if that work is really left up to the Holy Spirit, that work being to bring the believer to character perfection i.e the character of Christ, then the Holy Spirit has fallen down on the job pretty badly for nearly 2000 years. Now since I believe that the Holy Spirit is God and just as perfect as Christ I don't accept the idea that the Holy Spirit has neglected His job. So it would seem that God has not designed for humans to attain the character of Christ this side of heaven. After the second coming when the corruptible is changed to incorruptible in the twinkling of the eye. Then it would be conceivable that the change in charcter is made. For now we see darkly but then we will see face to face. Which again leaves us with unity being something other then having attained the character of Christ unless by that phrase you mean to love one another which is certainly the character of God and certainly our goal though again we often fail.
just because humans have not cooperated with the Holy Spirit does not mean He has failed.... we have a choice, cooperate with the transformation or attempt to do it on our own... most have attempted to do it on their own....
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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But that is not what you said:

It is not up to the believer to attain the character of Christ, that work belongs to the Holy Spirit... the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit as he transforms the life.....

If it is not up to the believer then how can it be up to the believer to cooperate. I agree the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit to transform their life. That is what repentance and faith are all about.
 
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StormyOne

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RC_NewProtestants said:
But that is not what you said:



If it is not up to the believer then how can it be up to the believer to cooperate. I agree the believer can cooperate with the Holy Spirit to transform their life. That is what repentance and faith are all about.
it is up to the believer to cooperate... it is not up to the believer to attempt to reproduce the character of Christ in their lives... they can't do it... so its cooperate and be transformed, or attempt in vain to perfect yourself....
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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so its cooperate and be transformed, or attempt in vain to perfect yourself....

So your position is that no one has cooperated with the Holy Spirit yet' otherwise they would have attained to the character of Christ?

as you earlier said:
what has not been completed is that we have not allowed the Holy Spirit to recreate the character of Christ in us, unifying us
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I have been studying this issue. I have the daniel Revelation Study committee book. Man they are a tough read, long, boring and confusing. What I am convinced of so far is that the 2300 days is to be interpreted and 1 day = 1 year. What I am not convinced of is that the event that ended the 2300 day was Christ entering the most holy place and commencing the Investigative judgement. The passage in Daniel seems to favor the ideas of restoration not sanitizing the most holy place
 
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