17 Hell-Sending Activities In Just 3 Verses!

[heritage36]

Many very good points, I completely agree

 

[max1120]

So now demonstrating against social injustice like abortion or unfair employment practices sends you to hell. I think you're stretching the text a bit there.

Wait a minute now lets not be hasty hear, why not go to hell for those things?...lol After all a lot of people who believe the bible is word for word, infaliable and written word for word by god himself and thus without even the slightest error or mistake (even when science clearly illustrates otherwise) and who propose that god sends people to hell for simply not seeing enough evidence to suggest he exist during their time on earth (it is not like it is an obvious fact), surely you are not proposing that there are limits? Why not? You see the problem with the "literal" interpretation of things, it becomes insane and gets twisted does it not? I see no reason why his strict interpretation of that scripture is any less valid than the strict interpretation of others. Even though I do not believe his interpretation is accurate in the least, it does illustrate a point.

 

[davidsheart77]

Wait a minute now lets not be hasty hear, why not go to hell for those things?...lol After all a lot of people who believe the bible is word for word, infaliable and written word for word by god himself and thus without even the slightest error or mistake (even when science clearly illustrates otherwise) and who propose that god sends people to hell for simply not seeing enough evidence to suggest he exist during their time on earth (it is not like it is an obvious fact), surely you are not proposing that there are limits? Why not? You see the problem with the "literal" interpretation of things, it becomes insane and gets twisted does it not? I see no reason why his strict interpretation of that scripture is any less valid than the strict interpretation of others. Even though I do not believe his interpretation is accurate in the least, it does illustrate a point.

What are you talking about we are to walk by the spirit not the human intellect when it comes to the things of God?

 

[max1120]

What are you talking about we are to walk by the spirit not the human intellect when it comes to the things of God?

Yes but that does not mean we have to abandon all reason and common sense. God does not do send people to hell to suffer and burn in agony for all eternity. It is not true and teaching such things actually turns people away from god, not toward god. It paints god as narcissist and a despot. The god I worship is one of love and mercy, not someone who is going to send the vast majority of people who have ever lived on earth to burn and be tormented for all eternity. It would make no sense to do so and it would make god unworthy of worship to do so. No one would worship such a god out of love, only out fear and fear can never produce love. Love comes from understanding not from fear. God plainly states his desire that we are to be his children and that he wants us to love him. That is not compatible with the concept of a god who tosses people off in to ever lasting torment simply because the did not see enough reason to believe in existence during their lives. It is not as if they KNEW for a fact that god was really and that they had the proof and refused to follow him. That by the way would be the unpardonable sin. What most people who do not follow go do is, simply disbelieve in his existence, not because they "just want to disbelieve", but because they honestly do not see the evidence to support a belief in his existence. To be honest their really is not a lot of strong "proof" to show them. Thus an "all knowing" god would be well aware of this fact regarding the limits of human understanding and would not send people to be tormented for all eternity without end simply for not being able to do what he already knows is very difficult for them...if not impossible. What about people who never heard of the Christian god? What about the guy who died in China five days after Jesus did no the cross? There was no way for him to have heard of the Christian god and thus he would have died without being "saved" or accepting Christianity. So off he goes to the fire pits??? Why, because he died at a bad time before missionaries could get to him? If people who die such as this person do not go to hell but are some how allowed in to heaven, are we really doing them a favor or cursing them by preaching the gospel to them? Maybe they would be better off and have an easier time getting into heaven and avoiding hell if we just never told them about Jesus? If eternal torture is true, than maybe we should stop preaching to them in order to make it easier for them to avoid such a terrible fait? Or do you really believe god would send people to such a place of of torture simply for dying in a place and time when they could not have heard of him?? You see how silly the whole idea of eternal torture really is?

 

[davidsheart77]

Yes but that does not mean we have to abandon all reason and common sense. God does not do send people to hell to suffer and burn in agony for all eternity. It is not true and teaching such things actually turns people away from god, not toward god. It paints god as narcissist and a despot. The god I worship is one of love and mercy, not someone who is going to send the vast majority of people who have ever lived on earth to burn and be tormented for all eternity. It would make no sense to do so and it would make god unworthy of worship to do so. No one would worship such a god out of love, only out fear and fear can never produce love. Love comes from understanding not from fear. God plainly states his desire that we are to be his children and that he wants us to love him. That is not compatible with the concept of a god who tosses people off in to ever lasting torment simply because the did not see enough reason to believe in existence during their lives. It is not as if they KNEW for a fact that god was really and that they had the proof and refused to follow him. That by the way would be the unpardonable sin. What most people who do not follow go do is, simply disbelieve in his existence, not because they "just want to disbelieve", but because they honestly do not see the evidence to support a belief in his existence. To be honest their really is not a lot of strong "proof" to show them. Thus an "all knowing" god would be well aware of this fact regarding the limits of human understanding and would not send people to be tormented for all eternity without end simply for not being able to do what he already knows is very difficult for them...if not impossible. What about people who never heard of the Christian god? What about the guy who died in China five days after Jesus did no the cross? There was no way for him to have heard of the Christian god and thus he would have died without being "saved" or accepting Christianity. So off he goes to the fire pits??? Why, because he died at a bad time before missionaries could get to him? If people who die such as this person do not go to hell but are some how allowed in to heaven, are we really doing them a favor or cursing them by preaching the gospel to them? Maybe they would be better off and have an easier time getting into heaven and avoiding hell if we just never told them about Jesus? If eternal torture is true, than maybe we should stop preaching to them in order to make it easier for them to avoid such a terrible fait? Or do you really believe god would send people to such a place of of torture simply for dying in a place and time when they could not have heard of him?? You see how silly the whole idea of eternal torture really is?

Well Buddy I understand where you are coming from, unfortunately I must abide by Our father's word. I know the idea of a God that will perform justice and cast us into hell.....is a very hard concept to grasp. I use the word grasp becuase it't not that difficult to understand, nor is it unjust. The thing of it is.... you are a christian and the bible in the written word belongs to your faith and if it doesn't, than what faith do you have ?where do you get your faith from? My friend, who I deeply understand where you are coming from because I was once there. I also wanted just a God who was loving and kind, seen no wrong or held no one accountable for their sins ha! What blasphemy!! Do you not understand my brother the nature of our being? do you not understand the severity of our issue with wrong-doing and chaos? Do you not understand the doubleminded existence that entraps our very inner core when it comes to doing the right thing? Have you forgotten that our heart is so decieving and corrupt that even, if that was a myth of A God, we would spit at his face for being weak and of no strength. We would burn his throne for not performing justice because he would be oh so loving with no punishment at hand according to the perverted definition of love from the world. Look carefully at a parent when he spoils a child, what happens if a father does not discipline his children, heaven forbid!! How much greater our King! Have you forgotten the definiton from Our King of what love is in 1 Corinthians it says, " Love delights in no evil, but rejoices in righteousness." Other translations, "Love delights in truth, not falsehood. So How can our King who is of Love and righteousness and Truth abide with darkness in the kingdom of Heaven. Heavens forbid! And who ever said Our Father throws us into hell, when we look at in a spirtual sense, we throw ourselves in Hell because of our own choices, our own unbelief, our own mockery of grace. Don't you see our nature is so selfish and corrupt ewithout Christ we are all worthy of Hell. " We have all fallen short of the Glory of God, For we have all sinned. So there is none that is righteous, none not one. We act as if God owes us a father. Thats the beauty of the Gospel, is salvation, repentance, grace, and power to be able and choose what is right so we may be presented spotless before our King. Christ said, " I have planted eternity in their hearts," so atheist choose not to belief according to the blindness and love for their sins on their own behalf. No proof, every breath they take, every creation they make, every little child is born into this earth bearing their image, every sunset and sunrise, and every word Jesus has spoken with the witness of the Holy Spirit against their wisdom and testimonies of men, is proof there ia a God. When I was an atheist...... its not proof we run away from....... but its judgement day we can't bear in mind and detest with every heart nerve and bone and its not because of hell we don't want to face judgement day.... Its because, as Christ said according to our human nature," they don't come to the light, because they love darkness and they don't come to the light lest their deeds be exposed. Our human nature is bondage to our sins one of the reasons for A SAVIOR, to set us free. "No man comes to me lest my father draws him to me." We don't come to God because we love our sins. Atheist don't need explanations for the gospel is foolisness unto them, they just need to hear it and prayed for. And if you believe this is not your God then you need to repent and come to the God of Our Lord Jesus Christ, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For our God is a precious loving God, but he is not mocked, he has also spoken in Hebrews." 30We know God who has said, `I am the one who will punish people. I will repay them.' Also, `The Lord will judge his people.'
31People should fear very much to be punished by the living God. So our King is a loving God and a consuming fire.

 

[heritage36]

God does punish people, and his punishments are just. Just know that the Bible does not teach that we are to go to hell for eternity as the last writer seems to believe, but that the Bible teaches destruction for those who aren't deemed worthy of eternal life in Christ's name. If you want to prove or disprove this, do a good study of the hebrew word naphesh in the OT and psuche in the Greek NT. It will make you plainly see that the soul is mortal, and therefore cannot be eternally tormented and the idea of hell seems foolish and not in accordance with Scripture as so many of us believe even before studying it out.

 

[max1120]

Well Buddy I understand where you are coming from, unfortunately I must abide by Our father's word. I know the idea of a God that will perform justice and cast us into hell.....is a very hard concept to grasp.

It is not that it is hard to grasp, it is simply untrue. The bible was not written in modern english and published in the form you read it today. The words written were much different and some things were added and taken away by various persons over the centuries. An excellent example is the last 12 verses of Mark's Gospel do not appear in any of the earliest copies (2nd & 3rd century) of that text. Suddenly in they appear the in late 4th early-late 5th century text. This means that those words did not appear until nearly 500 years after Christ crucifixion. Also there are many examples of text where there are many possible translations of the early Greek (Konie) or Hebrew words used in the text. Then there are contradictions in several places. There are also places where there are obvious misstatements of facts. Do you believe that the earth remains still and that the sun and stars revolve around Earth? Of course not..lol But in several places in the bible this is clearly stated. The bible is filled with such errors. This is why I doubt the teaching of a fire burning hell. Now there may be some form of permanent separation form god and those who did believe, but not being burned in fire forever.

I use the word grasp becuase it't not that difficult to understand, nor is it unjust.

IF it were true than yes god would be unjust in doing such things. Why would you (except out of fear) or anyone for that matter want to worship someone who would torture such innocent people who had done no real harm to him. If he is god, than he is beyond their ability to harm him in any way. He would be the quintessential bully. I would never worship such a bully as his arrogance would make him unworthy of any such nobility.


The thing of it is.... you are a christian and the bible in the written word belongs to your faith and if it doesn't, than what faith do you have?

My faith is in a god of infinite justice not a god of terror and manipulation. My faith is in a god of understanding not domination. My faith is in a god of truth not fear. My god reigns with true honor not forced submission. If that is all that ties a kingdom together, than their is no kingdom to hold together. Fear has its limits and is not infinite. It wears over time. Fear does not inspire love or passionate devotion, it simply elicits subversion. If a King only rules by fear, than he is a weak King.

A wise King rules by "the iron fist wrapped in a velvet glove". It means to rule with kindness and use force rarely only when most necessary and then only with extreme prejudice. The excessive use of force undoes all good that can be done by any King. No wise king rules by the sword alone.

Where do you get your faith from?

My dear friend it come from faith AND reason. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. If they were than only the insane could be considered Christians. To reason is to see the facts as they appear and from them deduce the probability of ones belief. Is it real to assume that every word of a book sentence by sentence word by word is without error, when we can clearly demonstrate that it is indeed filled with errors? If this be true, why not other errors also? If for example the bible states (as it does in several places New and Old Testament) that the earth does not move ("the earth is fixed in its place") and that the sun moves around it are we to ignore all scientific data that clearly shows otherwise? If so you would propose insanity. However if we were to deduce that it may have been written by men who had no knowledge of the scientific truths we now understand and thus they wrote how they "understood" it to be. The bible is not without error.


My friend, who I deeply understand where you are coming from because I was once there. I also wanted just a God who was loving and kind, seen no wrong or held no one accountable for their sins ha!

There is a huge difference between judging right from wrong and the unrestrained use of force to carry out that end. There is such a thing as proportional justice. This concept requires that the "punishment should fit the crime". We do not execute shoplifters or give life sentences to people for speeding. We do not hang people for expressing their views. You propose that god actually tortures people with burning fire in extreme agony for all eternity. We do not in a civilized society torture people for minor offenses. Where is the proportionality in such a situation? If I were to witness such a horrific act I would not see it as justice. I would view it as if I were watching a cruel dictator execute an entire village, men, women, and children, simply because they did not show him enough respect. It screams of an almost insane sort of belief that terror can somehow result in justice. It can not and will not, it simply is not possible to achieve justice or to hold honor by doing such things. If god were to do such a thing he would make himself worse than the worst murder or criminal who has ever lived on this planet.


What blasphemy!! Do you not understand my brother the nature of our being? do you not understand the severity of our issue with wrong-doing and chaos? Do you not understand the doubleminded existence that entraps our very inner core when it comes to doing the right thing? Have you forgotten that our heart is so decieving and corrupt that even, if that was a myth of A God, we would spit at his face for being weak and of no strength. We would burn his throne for not performing justice because he would be oh so loving with no punishment at hand according to the perverted definition of love from the world. Look carefully at a parent when he spoils a child, what happens if a father does not discipline his children, heaven forbid!!

Do you burn your children at night? Torture them night and day? Of course not. Why? because you know instinctively that it would be wrong and would have exactly the opposite of your desired result. It would push them away from you not draw them near you. You said with out such evil torture men would "burn his throne" "spit in his face", I doubt it.

Let us say I command a battalion (about 800 or so men) and lead them into a city of say 10,000. We are not exactly warmly welcomed by the town, people do not like being invaded. I deal first with any partisans. I give them a an opportunity to lay down their arms and I only move in to take them out with minimum force necessary to remove them and protect my people form harm. If a shop keeper shows one of my soldiers disrespect, I do not let him toss a grenade into the market or order the mans execution. I ignore it. Why? Because he is a minimum distraction and is incapable of causing me real harm. If he touches a weapon, I take him down. If he tries to organize a resistance to attack and kill my men, I take him down. But if he simply does not want to be a part of what we are doing, I leave him in peace and move on. That is justice, that is humanity, that is a leader.

The sort of god you propose simply tortures everyone who simply does not believe he exist without regard to why or any extenuating circumstances. That would not be seen as justice or leadership, that is simply cruel and nothing less than blind arrogance.

How much greater our King! Have you forgotten the definiton from Our King of what love is in 1 Corinthians it says, " Love delights in no evil, but rejoices in righteousness." Other translations, "Love delights in truth, not falsehood.

It helps if you use the whole verse and not just one or two sentences, without all of it you missed the true meaning of the passage. It defines perfect love and it is a great definition. NOTICE WHERE IT SAYS LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS!!!!

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 "love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it is not proud. It is not rude, it IS NOT SELF-SEEKING, IT IS NOT EASILY ANGERED, IT KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS. LOVE DOES NOT DELIGHT IN EVIL BUT REJOICES WITH TRUTH. IT ALWAYS PROTECTS, ALWAYS TRUST, ALWAYS HOPES, ALWAYS PRESERVES.


It is very interesting that you used this particular passage. Read it again "IT KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS". This illustrates my point. God can be a strong and powerful and not use his power to torture others who are weaker than he and who pose no threat to him.

So How can our King who is of Love and righteousness and Truth abide with darkness in the kingdom of Heaven. Heavens forbid!

Again, separation of some sort, yes, infinite torture as punishment for finite transgressions, no. God may separate those who believed in him from those who did not, but he does not torture them infinitely with fire for all eternity as you suggest he does.

And who ever said Our Father throws us into hell, when we look at in a spirtual sense, we throw ourselves in Hell because of our own choices, our own unbelief, our own mockery of grace.

This is poor logic. It is like saying that a cruel dictator did not execute a man for steeling food to feed his family, rather the man executed himself when he stole the food rather than let his family starve. This is really poor logic and could be used to justify any crime or act by any dictator or murder you want to apply it too.

Don't you see our nature is so selfish and corrupt ewithout Christ we are all worthy of Hell. " We have all fallen short of the Glory of God, For we have all sinned. So there is none that is righteous, none not one. We act as if God owes us a father.

No sorry but none o this could possibly make anyone worthy of being burned in agony forever and ever. Again why would someone follow the teachings of the Christian god if she/he did not believe that god existed? Answer they would not follow them. So the only "sin" a person has committed in such a case is that he/she did not see enough evidence to convince them that he existed during their life. Again look at the facts, there really is not much factual evidence to support a belief in the Christian god. It is not as if god made his existence obvious to all. So your view of god is one who tortures people simply for not being convinced of evidence which he never provided to them.


Thats the beauty of the Gospel, is salvation, repentance, grace, and power to be able and choose what is right so we may be presented spotless before our King.

No the beauty of the Gospel is simply that god loves his creation and does not intend to torture anyone. That is fear used for the purposes of men not god.

Christ said, " I have planted eternity in their hearts," so atheist choose not to belief according to the blindness and love for their sins on their own behalf. No proof, every breath they take, every creation they make, every little child is born into this earth bearing their image, every sunset and sunrise, and every word Jesus has spoken with the witness of the Holy Spirit against their wisdom and testimonies of men, is proof there ia a God.

I am sorry but that falls really short of what the vast majority of people would call proof. There are multiple explanations for everything you just listed.


When I was an atheist...... its not proof we run away from....... but its judgement day we can't bear in mind and detest with every heart nerve and bone and its not because of hell we don't want to face judgement day....

No sorry again most Atheist/Agnostics I know are not "running away from judgment day", because they do not believe there is a "judgment day" to run away from..lol If they believed in a "judgment day" they would be Christians...lol Now they may fear death, but what they fear is physical death, not some spiritual afterlife or hell. Why? Because they do not believe in an "afterlife" and thus do not fear going to "hell", not going to "heaven", or having to face a "judgment day". They no more fear "judgment day" than I fear not getting a present at Christmas because I do not believe in Santa. So you make no sense with your false logic.


Its because, as Christ said according to our human nature," they don't come to the light, because they love darkness and they don't come to the light lest their deeds be exposed.

This has to do with people who disbelieved after having actually seen Jesus and seen proof of what he was, not people who have never seen proofs.

 

[davidsheart77]

but that the Bible teaches destruction for those who aren't deemed worthy of eternal life in Christ's name. It will make you plainly see that the soul is mortal, and therefore cannot be eternally tormented and the idea of hell seems foolish and not in accordance with Scripture as so many of us believe even before studying it out.[/quote]

Yeah, but there is several things to bring up in scripture alone. Pertaining to being in destruction forever and what not. Which at this point, I don't think it's neccessary because the whole message has become a people pleasing, not hurt your feelings, tip toeing around with definitions, apostle Paul word twisting,habitual sin approving for the believer, cloak of grace for itching ears, falsified personal Jesus. That I am just going to," let each man be fully convinced in his own mind," pertaining some things that are not essential for salvation or of keeping the faith. If you guys want to believe that, about hell and judgement, and the rights and explanations due to the atheist or an unbeliever in general, by all means go ahead. As long as we know Jesus Christ is Lord of our lives. And we obey him in all we say and do, so that in the end we hear well done thou faithful servant and not depart from me I never knew you. Which of course part of the ones who got sent to hell proclaimed they knew him. They call him Lord, Lord. I mean Our King does tell us," my people perish because of a lack of knowledge. See ya!

 

[davidsheart77]

No the beauty of the Gospel is simply that god loves his creation and does not intend to torture anyone. That is fear used for the purposes of men not god.




[/quote]
There is a gigantic misunderstanding somewhere pertaining the true believer I was not speaking the true believer, for those who truly believe and keep his commandments there is no condmenation, for they don't walk after flesh, which is the law of sin and death bbut after the Spirit which is righteousness and life. A gigantic misunderstanding pertaing the unbeliever and or atheists, the origin of our nature, the control of our nature, the bondage of our nature, the salvation of our nature, in our inner being. And I think you have a problem with our King of our Faith. The love presented was the forgiveness of sins which holds no wrongs and gives you the power to choose the right path with a cleansed heart: to whoever believes. What if they have not believed, then their is no forgiveness why? because the unbeliever denies, abhors and neglects the Love of the Father and His sacrifice. It has nothing to do with how loving our King is for he has shown that to the unbeliever in the Gospel and when he hears it. The problem is it calls for repentance of their evil ways. "
19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. That is the verdict of their judgement to all unbelievers. It does not matter origin, where you where in life or anything. Michael Jackson was worldwide known from his generation and on, how much more Jesus Christ. When I have spoken of the gracious love of the King and his forgivenss and power of the Gospel to unbelievers and athiest alike, they have not refuted because of hell or any judgement. They have created their way of thinking due to their pride of Life, desire of their eyes, and desire of their body. They refute at the idea of a call for repentance of their lifestyle that, they say their is no God in their heart according to King David. But not because of lack of evidence but because of accountability. I advise you pray about this and ask the Lord to help you understand not ateists or unbelievers but our human nature, and the salvation of it. And many are called but few are chosen. You think honestly God does not call every unbeliever home through the Gospel? wow!! what great faith in a God is that! He has said everyone will know the Lord,. They mock him day and night and use his name in vain every single day. Christ said, they hated me first,and they have no excuse for their sin. Do not let anyone fool you with their watered down nonsense, we must speak with love but the words we speak are not ours but Christ to the unbelievers. WE HAVE BELIEVED INH HIS LOVE AND WANTED FORGIVENESS MERCY AND SALVATION FROM OUR SINS: BECAUSE HE CALLED AND WE SEEN OUR TRESSPASSES AND HIS GRACE ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY AND GLORY. The world denies because they have a love for unrigteousness and encourage other to do it. THE KING SAYS THE GOSPEL AND WISDOM OF THE LORD IS FOOLISHENESS TO THE WORLD. May the King be with you. and let himhave mercy on the blind for we were once in that spot, for it is a gift of a Loving God so no man should boast but, if you deny it or throw the gift away. Well logic says where do you find yourself. And when I say father I mean for all believers and unbelievers becuse whether anyone wants to accept it he is the creator of all and has spoken but this time through his Son The WORD made flesh.

 

[max1120]

but that the Bible teaches destruction for those who aren't deemed worthy of eternal life in Christ's name.

While distruction of the soul (without torture) seems more compatable with the truth of what the origional text convey than some bizzare belief in eternal torture by fire as the other poster suggested, it still falls quite short of justice by any sane standard. The distruction discussed in the bible is figurative not literal, god does not permanently destroy thier souls in physical manner. They are cut off forever and in that way they are destroyed as in god's eyes they no longer exist. So it is not their physical destruction which occurrs but rather they are sort of cut out of the family forever, if that makes sense to you.

It will make you plainly see that the soul is mortal, and therefore cannot be eternally tormented and the idea of hell seems foolish and not in accordance with Scripture as so many of us believe even before studying it out.

From my perspective it is not a question of is the soul mortal, but rather is eternal torture with fire or annhilation or destruction of the soul a just act by a just King? The answer is of course no, eternal punishment for finite transgressioins can never be justified. Only a cure, narcissist would believe such a thing to be just. No sane person would participate or "worship" such a god nor follow any king who acted in such a way. It would be barbaric.

Yeah, but there is several things to bring up in scripture alone. Pertaining to being in destruction forever and what not. Which at this point, I don't think it's neccessary because the whole message has become a people pleasing, not hurt your feelings, tip toeing around with definitions, apostle Paul word twisting,habitual sin approving for the believer, cloak of grace for itching ears, falsified personal Jesus.

It is not a matter of "people pleasing", at least not for me, it simply is not true and to say otherwise is to call god a callous, cruel, dictator who cares very little for those he created and ignores the vast majority of what is found in the bible himself. I am not twisting Paul's words, simply pointing out the truth in plain English for anyone who cares to read it to see.

That I am just going to," let each man be fully convinced in his own mind," pertaining some things that are not essential for salvation or of keeping the faith.

This would mean that you do no believe in reason nor people having the right to know the facts in life before making decisions. It would mean that god wants us zombies rather intelligent and well reasoned belief. The god I worship does not want me to be his zombie or mindless moron, he wants me to follow him out of conviction not fear.

If you guys want to believe that, about hell and judgement, and the rights and explanations due to the atheist or an unbeliever in general, by all means go ahead.

Most of what you say sounds more akin to a ancient dictator who lived in middle east thousands of years ago. It was for example once the custom of Kings to put to the sword not only the army which opposed him on the field but every man woman and child in the city, even those who never lifted a blade to fight against him. The rational was that their support no matter how minor made them the other Kings enemy. We now see this as barbaric. The authors of the books of the bible were influenced by the world and politics or the time and place in which they lived. In the 1st centruy AD life was cruel and Kings were brutal and they were predisposed to kill as I pointed out every last man, woman, and child in a village or city that was defeated in battle. This can account in a large way for the way that the bible portrays god as a King who tortures. It was simply the way the authors knew to express themselves given their surroundings and the world they lived in 2000 years ago, not today.

As long as we know Jesus Christ is Lord of our lives. And we obey him in all we say and do, so that in the end we hear well done thou faithful servant and not depart from me I never knew you. Which of course part of the ones who got sent to hell proclaimed they knew him. They call him Lord, Lord. I mean Our King does tell us," my people perish because of a lack of knowledge. See ya!

It appears you take some satisfaction or sense of person vendication in your "see ya!" remark. This also accounts for why I suspect many who believe as you do cling to these obviously rediculous assertions that god actually burns people in hell for all eternity or offs them in some final mass execution. It appears to give you some sense of "superiority" over others who view this differently. There are cases of this in almost every religion including Islam. Look at how the radical Islamic groups such as those who follow Osama bin Laden seem to look down upon other Muslims who do not follow him and wage "jihad" or holy war on the "Infidels" (no believers). I see little difference between those who take such views and radical Muslims. They are both the extremes of their religions and are usually the ones who are most willing to twist the scriptures to fit their need to be "right".

 

[heritage36]

I like your thoughts on a lot of these things, Max1120! Very good thoughts on how barbaric it would be if people believed that God would eternally torture like that. I think the main punishment is not being a part of Gods future Kingdom when you are cut off.

 

[davidsheart77]

It appears you take some satisfaction or sense of person vendication in your "see ya!" remark. This also accounts for why I suspect many who believe as you do cling to these obviously rediculous assertions that god actually burns people in hell for all eternity or offs them in some final mass execution. It appears to give you some sense of "superiority" over others who view this differently. There are cases of this in almost every religion including Islam. Look at how the radical Islamic groups such as those who follow Osama bin Laden seem to look down upon other Muslims who do not follow him and wage "jihad" or holy war on the "Infidels" (no believers). I see little difference between those who take such views and radical Muslims. They are both the extremes of their religions and are usually the ones who are most willing to twist the scriptures to fit their need to be "right". [/quote]


By no means do I believe I know it all or that I am flawless and a holy saint of righteouseness. But Can you believe what you have been saying, that the scriptures are erroneous? something I once held thanks to that book called, Jesus interrupted by bart ehrman. That book and other material helped me to disbelieve in the bible. But I think our issue is not with hell or atleast not for me, because in pasalms it does state the wicked will be cut off for good and such and such, which I have thought what is the point of eternal life : but for the continuance of living on. So I have re considered alot of the traditions of what man has been taught by carefully reading the scriptures for a better understanding. But then problem I thought or sensed was that you believed God would not discipline or reward us according to our works. Him rewarding us is being just. But as far as hell being literal that is something that I still am a little uncertain because there is proofs for both yet. So but what I originally believed from reading was that hell was in a sense just a permanent separation From God in the sense of them having no more existence, and it would be everlasting because they would not be brought to life again Hence: the purpose of us wanting eternal Life: to continue living after death. So I had this view becuase its what I got from the scriptures but I was opposed for it severly, so I put it behind me. So It actually is quite good to hear that from someone else. Because that is what i got from reading. But my arguement was not for that point but for destruction.

 

[max1120]

No the beauty of the Gospel is simply that god loves his creation and does not intend to torture anyone. That is fear used for the purposes of men not god.

There is a gigantic misunderstanding somewhere pertaining the true believer I was not speaking the true believer, for those who truly believe and keep his commandments there is no condmenation, for they don't walk after flesh, which is the law of sin and death bbut after the Spirit which is righteousness and life.

Again though you still are making god simply a dictator intent on forcing with fear people to do something. You still have your belief that god uses threat of torture to compell them to do something against their will. That is not "righteousness" it is insanity. Again what sort of sane person would follow (except out of fear) a god that would toss people off into hell to burn for all eternity in utter agony simply because they saw insufficent proof of his existence during their life on earth?? This would be the act of a monster not a loving god.

A gigantic misunderstanding pertaing the unbeliever and or atheists, the origin of our nature, the control of our nature, the bondage of our nature, the salvation of our nature, in our inner being. And I think you have a problem with our King of our Faith.


No my friend it is you who misunderstand and those who believe the same as you on this subject. I have no problem with god, it is not god but those who twisted his message of LOVE in order to convey their own message of FEAR.

The love presented was the forgiveness of sins which holds no wrongs and gives you the power to choose the right path with a cleansed heart: to whoever believes.

Nothing in that scripture ( 1 Chorinthians 1-13) says that it pertains only to the forgivensess of sins or only to Christians. You are reading that into it perhaps but it is not their at all. He is not saying here is how I or you should love "christians" but it is saying how god loves us all and how we are to love everyone also. Look agian carefully at the last verse; 1 Chorinthians 13, "And now these three remain, faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is LOVE". Note that god he is saying LOVE is even greater than FAITH! God puts LOVE higher than FAITH. LOVE is more important to god than our FAITH. That is the love of a father, not the vendictive nature of a dictator as you discribe him.

What if they have not believed, then their is no forgiveness why? because the unbeliever denies, abhors and neglects the Love of the Father and His sacrifice.

That passage says nothing about this stuff you are again reading into it.

It has nothing to do with how loving our King is for he has shown that to the unbeliever in the Gospel and when he hears it. The problem is it calls for repentance of their evil ways. "

But that is not why they are non-believers, they are non-believers because they do not see suffienet proofs to justify a belief in what you are telling them. Again in the same way I see no proof to justify a belief in Santa Clause, they see insuffient proof to justify a belief in the christian god. You make it seem like they have been shown some form of absolute irrefutable proof and rejected it. This is simply not the case at all.


19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. That is the verdict of their judgement to all unbelievers. It does not matter origin, where you where in life or anything. Michael Jackson was worldwide known from his generation and on, how much more Jesus Christ. When I have spoken of the gracious love of the King and his forgivenss and power of the Gospel to unbelievers and athiest alike, they have not refuted because of hell or any judgement. They have created their way of thinking due to their pride of Life, desire of their eyes, and desire of their body.

Untrue, they simply do not believe you based upon the lacking of evidence presented to them by you. The truth is that their really is very little evidence to support our belief. This is another reason I do not believe god tortures people in hell for all eternity or has some end of time mass execution of atheist/agnostics. He realizes the difficulty in believing, he rewards those who do, but does not go so far as you suggest to punish those who do not, he simply seperates himself and his followers from them forever. No torture, no final destruction.

They refute at the idea of a call for repentance of their lifestyle that, they say their is no God in their heart according to King David. But not because of lack of evidence but because of accountability.


Again you just don't get it..lol Why would they fear "accountablity" for something from someone they do not even believe exist. They don't beleive their is anything to "account" for or anyone to account to after death. Otherwise they would be believers not UNBELIVERS..lol


I advise you pray about this and ask the Lord to help you understand not ateists or unbelievers but our human nature, and the salvation of it. And many are called but few are chosen. You think honestly God does not call every unbeliever home through the Gospel? wow!!

No not in the way you do. To me this appears to be a good excuse to say "everyone had a chance" by those who want to believe in a vendictive evil god who tortures people forever and ever. The truth is there is no substancial proof that god acutally communicates to everyone as you say. If so there would be no need for a bible or a church, or preachers, god would just announce himself to each person and offer him the option to follow him, it does not work that way obviously does it?...lol I believe he offers them the oppertunity, but recognizes the limitations of human nature. You propose a god that puts very little value on us as beings.

what great faith in a God is that! He has said everyone will know the Lord,. They mock him day and night and use his name in vain every single day. Christ said, they hated me first,and they have no excuse for their sin.

Here again he is discussing people who actually witnessed his ministry not everyone, they were without excuse becasue they had phyical proof of his existence.

 

[max1120]

I like your thoughts on a lot of these things, Max1120! Very good thoughts on how barbaric it would be if people believed that God would eternally torture like that. I think the main punishment is not being a part of Gods future Kingdom when you are cut off.

Thank you for your kind words. Yes it would be barbaric if what they are suggesting were true, which of course it is not. You are correct that is the punishment, being cut off from god's kingdom.
There is no eternal punishment of being burned with fire and god does not have some end of time execution waiting on all those who simply did not believe there was enough evidence to support believing in the Christian god. Amazing this sort of thinking even still exist today.

Thanks again!

 

[davidsheart77]

Thank you for your kind words. Yes it would be barbaric if what they are suggesting were true, which of course it is not. You are correct that is the punishment, being cut off from god's kingdom.
There is no eternal punishment of being burned with fire and god does not have some end of time execution waiting on all those who simply did not believe there was enough evidence to support believing in the Christian god. Amazing this sort of thinking even still exist today.

Thanks again!

On second note, ill just continue following Christ and you can believe anything you want and other people can believe you. I just know what the scripture points and that, is if you don't repent of your evil doings and believe in the Gospel and follow after love with a born again spirit, you will be destroyed, cut off from the earth, in everlasting punishment, like the cities of sodom and gomorrah. My God is a Loving God and King, he has shown me grace and told me to abide in his love, has delivered me from my sins, and given me power to resist the enmy. Why do I follow such God because he first loved me and showed me his love and saved me, preordaining us from the beginning of the world. He has told me he that does not keep his commandments does not love God. I know my King is not barbaric for he rewards according to every mans doing. How can he be barbaric. And what do you mean how can he punish anybody who has not done anything to him? I can quote you scripture after scripture, we are not oursleves, everything wrong doing we have done is against the Lord, his image and our brothers and sisters. That is the power of the Gospel. And yes he will be cut off the kingdom every living breath that has not believed the Gospel and did not have the oil residing in his heart. Whether it is eternal in the says of past teachin, no but will it be coming yes and there will be a second death and they will be turned into ashes and not remembered anymore.

 

[max1120]

On second note, ill just continue following Christ and you can believe anything you want and other people can believe you. I just know what the scripture points and that, is if you don't repent of your evil doings and believe in the Gospel and follow after love with a born again spirit, you will be destroyed, cut off from the earth, in everlasting punishment, like the cities of sodom and gomorrah.


It is interesting to note here that the sin of Soddom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality, it was forced sex (rape), being unkind to strangers, mistreatment of strangers, and lacking compassion for others. The story is often told with a slant toward homosexuality, but it was rape not homosexuality. Also their appears to be no proof that the cities of Soddom and Gomorrah actually existed (although they could have and we simply do not yet have evidence of this) so the story may be used in scripture to illustrate a point rather than a historical account of something that accutually occurred.

My God is a Loving God and King, he has shown me grace and told me to abide in his love, has delivered me from my sins, and given me power to resist the enmy. Why do I follow such God because he first loved me and showed me his love and saved me, preordaining us from the beginning of the world.

All very well and good, but I still do not believe that god chooses some people to burn or be destroyed, you say he is loving, there is nothing loving about burning people in hell forever or having some end of time execution where they are destroyed forever all simply because they did not see enough evidence in their lifetime to believe in him. There is no justice in such an act.


He has told me he that does not keep his commandments does not love God. I know my King is not barbaric for he rewards according to every mans doing. How can he be barbaric.

IF as you suggested he burned people for all eternity in hell or destroyed them simply because they did not see enough evidence for believing in him durning their lifetime, when it is obvious that there is not that much evidence for them to go on, that would be beyond barbaric it would be insane.



And what do you mean how can he punish anybody who has not done anything to him? I can quote you scripture after scripture, we are not oursleves, everything wrong doing we have done is against the Lord, his image and our brothers and sisters.

They usually simply do not see enough evidence to believe he exist, and thus why would they follow the teachings of something they believed was made up? This is the truth of what most atheist/agnostics feel and believe about christianity. They don't reject god or christianity, they simply don't think they are real. I don't reject Santa Clause, I simply do not believe he exist. How can I reject something which I do not believe exist to begin with ? The same is true for them with regard to christianity. They do not believe that there is a god because they see little evidence to convince them otherwise. God knows this and because of it would never torture or murder them because of it. Seperate them yes, the other no.


That is the power of the Gospel.

THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL IS LOVE NOT HATE AND NOT FEAR!

And yes he will be cut off the kingdom every living breath that has not believed the Gospel and did not have the oil residing in his heart. Whether it is eternal in the says of past teachin, no but will it be coming yes and there will be a second death and they will be turned into ashes and not remembered anymore.

The second death is not an actual "physical death" or "destruction" it is simply a cutting off. They will be left to life apart from god and his kingdom. God considers those he has cut of "dead", but this is not a literal death but a figurative one. There is not going to be an end of time execution by carried out by god.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The second death is not an actual "physical death" or "destruction" it is simply a cutting off. They will be left to life apart from god and his kingdom. God considers those he has cut of "dead", but this is not a literal death but a figurative one. There is not going to be an end of time execution by carried out by god.

The second death is a physical death. If it is not then it means you will still be alive. And then what? Roam the earth forever or something?

 

[davidsheart77]

The second death is not an actual "physical death" or "destruction" it is simply a cutting off. They will be left to life apart from god and his kingdom. God considers those he has cut of "dead", but this is not a literal death but a figurative one. There is not going to be an end of time execution by carried out by god.

I don't think your listening to me honestly, you would be very surprised that we don't differ very much in all those areas. They are not going to be left apart from God because they are going to be destroyed for Good their will be no more existence nothing. And I also find it very interesting you have not used any scripture for anything. Or that you have not spoken in the light of the spirit of anything. So you are saying the atheist seek evidence proof or a sign? Well what did Christ say about an adulterous and evil generation? they seek a sign. we are told the heavens declare the glory of God. It is not a trifle nor light matter with God that people live in sin. Sin is not a light matter to be laughed at... “Who KNOWING THE JUDGMENT OF GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them” (Romans 1:32). Anyone and I will say this loud and with a trumpet, thinks that our God will not destroy, erradicate those who continue to live in a lifestyle of sin and continue to spit on the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ he will not escape the Judgement to come. Including myself. For as it is written, without holiness no man shall see the Lord. And I declare in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ if any man does not believe the simplicity of the Word of the Lord. He is an unbeliever. And if any man, apostle, pastor does not preach the gospel according to account of the Holy Spirit let him be accursed. For the Lord has came, and has“commandeth all men every where to repent." And those who don't accept the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and savior from their sins will rest in eternity in the lake of fire after they are rewarded according to their deeds on the Great White Throne Judgement a.ka. as the second death. May God have mercy on your hearts and those who twist his words.

 

[davidsheart77]

The second death is a physical death. If it is not then it means you will still be alive. And then what? Roam the earth forever or something?

Revelation 20:10, John describes those in the “lake of fire” being "tormented day and night forever and ever."

 

[davidsheart77]

If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and consign him to Hell: an evil refuge." (An-Nisa, 115)

Avoid those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim to them this truth: that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except God: it may offer every ransom, (or reparation), but none will be accepted: such is the end of those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they shall have only boiling water to drink and shall be sternly punished: for they persisted in rejecting God." (Al-Anaam, 70)

"And there are those who bury gold and silver and do not spend it in the way of God: announce to them a most grievous penalty. The Day will come when heat will be produced out of that wealth in the fire of Hell, and their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, will be branded with it. They will be told: This is the treasure which you buried for yourselves: taste you then, the treasures you buried'" (Al-Tawba, 34-35)

"When it is said to them, 'Fear God', they are led by arrogance to more crime. Hell shall be enough for them, an evil bed indeed to lie on!" (Al-Baqara, 206)


This is the human nature of mankind, we must not look with such kind eyes at sin, for our King paid a heavy price for it. . “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding” (Prov. 9:10; cf. 1:7). “The fear of the Lord is to hate evil” (Prov. 8:13).
A Christian’s spiritual life is not a static and unchangeable condition. You either make progress or you stagnate and start declining. The biblical injunction is that you must grow up spiritually to the mature man or woman in Christ (Eph. 4:13-14; Heb. 5:12 to 6:1). Peter says: “You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away by the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 3:17-18). “Pursue… holiness… looking diligently lest anyone should fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up should cause trouble, and by this many people become defiled” (Heb. 12:14-15). “Do not be deceived: evil company corrupts good habits” (1 Cor. 15:33). Jesus said, “Sin will be rampant everywhere and will cool the love of many” (Matt. 24:12 Living Bible).Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin” (Heb. 3:12-13). So remember Christian brethren do not be decieved, let us hold fast to the Word Of the Lord. To think we won't be judged according to our deeds believers and unbelievers, the difference between them and us, is grace love and truth. But if we earnestly "work our salvation in fear and trembling before the Lord." Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of
entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but
the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in
them that heard [it]. (He 4:1-2)

Be not fooled brothers and sisters Our King is not mocked, we will reap what we sow. If we sow to righteousness, peace and everlasting life. Stay Strong brothers that we may be counted worthy to enter.