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1260 days, 42 months... etc...

JohnMarsten

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when you think about the time periods mentioned in Daniel and Revelation they mostly refer to a time of 1260 YEARS according to SDAs, I dont want to argue about the origin of the assumption that a day in the bible means a day in real life

but

what has always been a mystery is

the beast of revelation that wil have power from 538 to 1798

and the two witnesses

which according to SDA refer to the old and the new testament.

logically the time frame should be the same, right??

now how does the two witnesses especially its characteristics (doing wonders and signs) fit into that time frame, did everyone watch dem die in 1798 did they rise in 1801 1/2??
 

doc8645

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I can't help you with details, sorry, not a Bible scholar, but I can give you some tidbits to explore and investigate. The power from 538 to 1798 is referring to the Roman Catholic Organization given power to rule as a religous and political power by Constantine who became a Christian, and the think to change times and law is the big one where the Church first established worship on both Sat. and Sun. then just Sunday by their own "power". The part about stopping and starting is referring to the French Revolution where Napolean's General captured the Pope who later died in prison, and effectively the Catholic Church was not recognized as a power until 1929 or so. The two witnesses reference is also of the French Revolution where they burned the Bible, didn't want nothing to do with it, even went to a 10 day week instead of a 7 and chaos reigned until they came to their senses. Sorry, can't be more scholarly, thats just the jist of what I remember.

doc8645
 
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JohnMarsten

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The two witnesses prophesy was during the 3 1/2 years of the French revolution in which they declared God to be dead and Reason ruled... 1793-1797.


yep... thats the first thing that is not very clear...

first of, doesnt the bible say they will prophesy for 1260 days, wouldnt that mean they should be killed in 1798 and resurrected in 1801 1/2...

so thats the first thing that is not really compatible with reality...

another one that is obscure to me:

---
If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
---

and since this is a prophesy every word has a meaning, now when I think about the old and the new testamtent during that time, its hard for me to accept they were actually doing something during that time period, with that power, I mean has any one of you ever thought about one thing:


the pope was imprisoned (and died later on, whatever...) this is the supposed mortal wound of the beast... and then there are the two witnesses, now I guess one would suppose that the beast would kill the witnesses, since the beast is evil and the witnesses good, since they are the Lord's witnesses, yet both are killed by the same entity, which entity is that, is it mentioned in revelation...

you see once scrutinize the whole thing many gaps appear...
 
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JohnMarsten

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especially interesting to me is the following passage:

11 But after the three and a half days the breath[b] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

- we see that they have been taken to heaven, now explain that to me... does it make any sense to connect those two witnesses with the old and the new testament, what does it mean taken to heaven?? with their enemies looking on...

did that ever happen?

another passage

6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

this is reminiscent of Elijah and Moses, I have given it much thought wondering what the rain and the blood means and cant think of anything, maybe these are not literal wonders and signs but for example, well... I cant think of anything

but then another passage

10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

so the people send each other gifts, why?? because the two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth??

hmm

another passage

If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.

well, fire connected with the blood and the rain, results into death and suffering, torment.... that would explain why the people rejoiced at their death...

did that ever happen???

now what we can see here is that the bulk of the prophecy doesnt fit into anything, but still we have to believe its the old and the new testament... wow...
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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ECR, if things were so easy as described in that pamphlet, all men on earth would be adventists, and women probably, too... ;)

Some just have a gift for disseminating the truth in a way that is easy to understand.
 
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O

OntheDL

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when you think about the time periods mentioned in Daniel and Revelation they mostly refer to a time of 1260 YEARS according to SDAs, I dont want to argue about the origin of the assumption that a day in the bible means a day in real life

but

what has always been a mystery is

the beast of revelation that wil have power from 538 to 1798

and the two witnesses

which according to SDA refer to the old and the new testament.

logically the time frame should be the same, right??

now how does the two witnesses especially its characteristics (doing wonders and signs) fit into that time frame, did everyone watch dem die in 1798 did they rise in 1801 1/2??

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Zechariah 4
3And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

The witnesses of God have always been the law and the prophet: the Word of God.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem, Israel, not Sodom and Egypt. Spiritually Sodom is sexual immortality and Egypt is atheism and defiance to God. Which power would rise at the end of the 1260 year reign of papal supremacy with the two fore-mentioned traits?

Atheism:
"France is the only nation in the world concerning which the authentic record survives, that as a nation she lifted her hand in open rebellion against the Author of the universe. Plenty of blasphemers, plenty of infidels, there have been, and still continue to be, in England, Germany, Spain, and elsewhere; but France stands apart in the world's history as the single state which, by the decree of her Legislative Assembly, pronounced that there was no God, and of which the entire population of the capital, and a vast majority elsewhere, women as well as men, danced and sang with joy in accepting the announcement."-- Blackwood's Magazine, November, 1870.

"A dechristianization of France started in 1793 . . . first with the Cult of Reason, then with that of the Supreme Being. [The foremost aim was] To defend the country and the Revolution . . . against the priests, who showed themselves hostile. It seemed as if the priesthood was indestructible except by the overthrow of its altars. That work was carried out by revolutionary patriotism, and supported by a movement of free-thought, which had long been bred through the intolerance of the State religion, while philosophers like Voltaire stimulated and disseminated it. . . . Supposing the success of the National Defense had been delayed, and a liberating victory . . . [had been delayed, too, allowing time for the masses to become more agitated] it is a question whether the protracted Terror, considered as a dechristianizing factor, would not have dealt the death-blow to the Catholic religion in particular, nay, to Christianity in general. . . .
"When I speak of Christianity, I refer chiefly to catholicism, but the two French Protestant Churches, the Lutheran and the Calvinistic, were also affected by the anti-religious movement of 1793. . . ." Preface (p. 13) of Christianity and the French Revolution. A. A. Aulard, translated by Lady Frazer, 1927. Ernest Benn Limited, London.

Sexual immortality:
Intimately connected with these laws affecting religion, was that which reduced the union of marriage--the most sacred engagement which human beings can form, and the permanence of which leads most strongly to the consolidation of society--to the state of a mere civil contract of a transitory character, which any two persons might engage in and cast loose at pleasure. . . . If fiends had set themselves to work to discover a mode of most effectually destroying whatever is venerable, graceful, or permanent in domestic life, and of obtaining at the same time an assurance that the mischief which it was their object to create should be perpetuated from one generation to another, they could not have invented a more effectual plan that the degradation of marriage. . . . Sophie Arnoult, an actress famous for the witty things she said, described the republican marriage as 'the sacrament of adultery. --Sir Walter Scott, Life of Napoleon, vol. 1, ch. 17

The timeline of 3.5 years falls within the 1260 years of Papal supremacy.

We saw in 1793
Jan: Louis 16th was beheaded.

Oct: the introduction of a new calendar of 10 day weeks aim at at eliminating the day of worship.
Nov: Goddess of Reason replaced the God of the universe.
Nov: The burning of the bibles.

1797
Churches reopened.
worship service resumed.

After the French Revolution in the late 1700's and early 1800's, bible societies (British and Foreign Bible Society, American Bible Society, American Board of Foreign Missions...) were formed and widely circulated the bibles.
 
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JohnMarsten

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basically I could agree with the old and the new testament as those witnesses, I could even overlook the time iregularity, I mean it states that they will be dead after that time period and not before its actually finished, so I think this is a rather twisted and turned interpretation, but OK, could be...

The points that are bothering me:

And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

- that means to me that these witnesses will prophesy as long as the beast will make war against the saints... the saints could be the witnesses by the way, just as a possibility... but Ok as said, thats not my major objection... the sackloth would in a way fit the situation of the old and the new testament, in a way, cause once you check the history you will find that it doesnt really matter... but lets leave that point...

If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die

- now here I am getting problems of fully understanding sackcloth... sackloth would suggest a certain humbleness... who has died during the 1260 days because of the old and the new testament?? I wouldnt know a single soul... and it does not mean any martyrdom because of ones testimony, because the verse speaks about their enemies. In other words, despite the sackcloth the witnesses stand above their enemies because they have the power to kill them... The Lord has commanded that every will have to die who stands in their way...

They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

- here we go again with the sackcloth issue, the two witnesses seem to be very powerful, causing some serious harm...

BUT NOW

For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

- I dont know if that fits into any scenario

The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

- suddenly the bible speaks about the two being prophets and it further underlines their tremendous power, people were sending gifts, who was tormented by the old and the new testament??

11 But after the three and a half days the breath[b] of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

- the went to heaven which means their gone and that they were given their "life" back in order to testify have more bibles sold

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

- that didnt happen either

----------------
in order to come up with the sda interpretation one must overlook some serious verses... and strip them off their meaning (whatever their meaning is)
 
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stinsonmarri

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when you think about the time periods mentioned in Daniel and Revelation they mostly refer to a time of 1260 YEARS according to SDAs, I dont want to argue about the origin of the assumption that a day in the bible means a day in real life

but

what has always been a mystery is

the beast of revelation that wil have power from 538 to 1798

and the two witnesses

which according to SDA refer to the old and the new testament.

logically the time frame should be the same, right??

now how does the two witnesses especially its characteristics (doing wonders and signs) fit into that time frame, did everyone watch dem die in 1798 did they rise in 1801 1/2??

[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']JohnMarsten:

The SDA has these Scriptures wrong because this is during the time of trouble. Michael will stand to finish sealing His people in the Book of Life. There shall be a Time of Trouble and Yashua is the One who gave the time of 1,260 actual days and not years. Dan 12:7

Returning to Revelation John is told to measure the Heavenly Temple where the saints are but not the courtyard which is the earth. It will be control by a Gentile who is the stout fellow that has always been a European. Canaan came under Ham and Israel under Shem and both were chosen and fail. Japheth descendant will do the same and the stout horn through time will rule again. This time in Jerusalem and like Moses the 144,000 will preach the Old and New Testament the two witnesses for 42 months or 3 1/2 years. During this time the great multitude will be seal and miracles will be done, dead will arise to show that Elohim still rules in the affairs of men. During this awful time the first three trumpet is Yahweh's wrath with a comet hitting the earth, asteroid hitting the sea, meteorites hitting the drinking water, and the sun and stars. Causing the sun to move out of its place coming closer to the earth with heat to punish man for their sins and how they did not care for His earth and animals!

After the multitude is seal during the last few months of the Time of Trouble three final trumpets with woes are given with strict warning!. The beast will return with Satan's full arsenal of angels who have been release by the will of Elohim. The Holy Spirit will have finishes His work and the wicked will be tortured by the beast and these evil angels like locust. This is the wrath of both the Lamb and His Father on the wicked. The beast will attempt to destroy the Old and New Testament but for only three literal days. A great earthquake will shake the city of Jerusalem because of her sins will come up before Elohim because she had already become confusion or Babylon! The Gentile along with her crew will rebuild the Temple and sit as both the Father and Son but Yahweh will used the beast to destroy her once and for all. This will be the battle of the Father Almighty between two evil foes and the beast for a short time will win. He will on rule for two month after the end of the 3 1/2 years which be the end of probation and Yashua will not be a Mediator! During this time He is returning to earth. It is when the earthquake and the seventh trumpet sound including the seven last plagues that the Ark of the Covenant here on earth will represent His two witnesses that Elohim has reserved and hidden for centuries to be taken into His Temple in Heaven. Rev 11-19 All will see that His laws cannot be destroyed and they do testify of The Father's justice, the Son's loyalty, and the Holy Spirit that leads all to the truth who would accept it.
[/FONT] Amen:clap:

Happy Sabbath and may the Yashua be lifted up through prayer,:amen:
stinsonmarri
 
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