10 commandments done away

[Father Rick]

I typed out a long post but lost it here is a summary of my points:

Colossians 2
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Romans 10
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The Mosaic code has been done away with and we now live under the law of Christ however some elements of this new code will encorporate elements of the old however the old code as a code has been done away with.

This is actually exactly opposite of what Jesus taught. He said, "I came not to do away with the Law (Torah/Mosaic Code) but to fulfill it."

 

[Iosias]

This is actually exactly opposite of what Jesus taught. He said, "I came not to do away with the Law (Torah/Mosaic Code) but to fulfill it."

Which is why you need to rightly divide the word of truth

 

[BronxBriar]

This is actually exactly opposite of what Jesus taught. He said, "I came not to do away with the Law (Torah/Mosaic Code) but to fulfill it."

And he did indeed fulfill it! (He was the only one who could). That is why God revealed what he did to Paul. The mystery revealed, the new dispensation, AMAZING GRACE INDEED!

 

[DanielRB]

This is actually exactly opposite of what Jesus taught. He said, "I came not to do away with the Law (Torah/Mosaic Code) but to fulfill it."

Hi Father Rick, thanks for your post.

It's important to remember the rest of what He said: "...until all is accomplished." When Christ died on the cross and said "it is finished", He accomplished all...the temple veil was torn in two, signalling the end of an old era and the beginning of a new.

BTW, I am not a dispensationalist.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[Crispie]

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."[ 10:16 Jer. 31:33]
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 10 In context: Hebrews 10:15-17)

 

[Crispie]

Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 8 In context: Hebrews 8:6-8)

I guess the old covenant wasnt perfect.

 

[muffler dragon]

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."[ 10:16 Jer. 31:33]
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 10 In context: Hebrews 10:15-17)

You really need to stop this, Crispie. As I just addressed in another one of your posts: you need to get context. Your eisegesis is gregious.

Furthermore, what the author of Hebrews of addressing has not been fulfilled yet. Do you have the laws of G-d written on your heart? I doubt it. Why is that? Because no one does yet. Everyone is still studying and learning. When it is written on the heart, there will be no more learning, just understanding and doing.

m.d.

 

[DanielRB]

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."[ 10:16 Jer. 31:33]
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 10 In context: Hebrews 10:15-17)

The word translated "law" in Jeremiah 31:33 is torah--instruction. Many might automatically assume by "torah" Jeremiah (and the writer of Hebrews) meant the torah of Moses. But this is not explicitly stated in the text, and there are other torahs in the Bible.

If Jeremiah meant to say that the torah of Moses was to written on the hearts of those in the new covenant, does that imply a part of Moses' torah, or all of it? If all of it, then what about kosher food laws, wearing clothes of mixed fabric, etc? If only part of it, how do we distinguish between the part that is still active and the part that is no longer applicable?

I think most Christians would agree that at least some of the Mosaic code is no longer in effect, neither required for salvation nor necessary to lead a holy life. But how can you tell what is still applicable, if the torah in Jer 31 is the Mosaic torah? Abraham was faithful to God's torah (Gen 26:5), but it was obvious that Abraham was not faithful to torah as given to Moses (indeed, he was guilty of capital crimes in marrying his half-sister.)

I believe that torah in Jer 31 is refering to God's instruction, written on our hearts. It isn't found written on tablets of stone (as even Paul wrote--2 Cor 3:3, 7), which Paul called "the ministry of death." Yes, the new instruction has many parallels with the Old--because God's character never changes. But His instructions (the literal translation of "torah") for us can change.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[muffler dragon]

Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(Whole Chapter: Hebrews 8 In context: Hebrews 8:6-8)

I guess the old covenant wasnt perfect.

This is on the border of blaphemous:

How does G-d view the Covenant He made with Israel?:

Exodus 31
16 'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

Leviticus 24
8 "(1) Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD (2) continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel.

Numbers 18
19 "(1) All the offerings of the holy gifts, which the sons of Israel offer to the LORD, I have given to you and your sons and your daughters with you, as a perpetual allotment. It is (2) an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD to you and your descendants with you."

Deuteronomy 4
31 "For the LORD your God is a (1) compassionate God; (2) He will not fail you nor (3) destroy you nor (4) forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

Deuteronomy 7
9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, (1) He is God, (2) the faithful God, (3) who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who (4) love Him and keep His commandments;

Judges 2
1 Now (1) the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to (2) Bochim. And he said, "(3) I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, '(4) I will never break My covenant with you,

Psalm 25
14
The (1) secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him,
And He will (2) make them know His covenant.

Psalm 89
34
"My (1) covenant I will not violate,
Nor will I (2) alter the utterance of My lips.

Psalm 111
9
He has sent (1) redemption to His people;
He has ordained His covenant forever;
(2) Holy and awesome is His name.

Isaiah 56
1
Thus says the LORD,
"(1) Preserve justice and do righteousness,
For My (2) salvation is about to come
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2
"How (3) blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who (4) takes hold of it;
Who (5) keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
3
Let not the (6) foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely separate me from His people."
Nor let the (7) eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."
4 For thus says the LORD,
"To the eunuchs who (8) keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And (9) hold fast My covenant,
5
To them I will give in My (10) house and within My (11) walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting (12) name which (13) will not be cut off.
6
"Also the (14) foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be His servants, every one who (15) keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7
Even (16) those I will bring to My (17) holy mountain
And (18) make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on (19) My altar;
For (20) My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples."

Luke 1
67 And his father Zacharias (73) was filled with the Holy Spirit, and (74) prophesied, saying:
68
"(75) Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited us and accomplished (76) redemption for His people,
69
And has raised up a (77) horn of salvation for us
In the house of David (78) His servant--
70
(79) As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets (80) from of old--
71
(81) Salvation (82) FROM OUR ENEMIES,
And FROM THE HAND OF ALL WHO HATE US;
72
(83) To show mercy toward our fathers,
(84) And to remember His holy covenant,
73
(85) The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,
74
To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75
(86) In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.
76
"And you, child, will be called the (87) prophet of (88) the Most High;
For you will go on (89) BEFORE THE LORD TO (90) PREPARE HIS WAYS;
77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation
By (91) the forgiveness of their sins,
78
Because of the tender mercy of our God,
With which (92) the Sunrise from on high will visit us,
79
(93) TO SHINE UPON THOSE WHO SIT IN DARKNESS AND THE SHADOW OF DEATH,
To guide our feet into the (94) way of peace."
80 (95) And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts until the day of his public appearance to Israel.

So, Crispie, what other derogatory comments might you like to add that denigrate the Holy Word of G-d?

I've got a suggestion for you. Instead of 'slamming' the Tanakh, why don't you try reading it? It will give you a world of wisdom.

m.d.

 

[DanielRB]

This is on the border of blaphemous:

How does G-d view the Covenant He made with Israel?:

Exodus 31
16 'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

Leviticus 24
8 "(1) Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD (2) continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel.

Numbers 18
19 "(1) All the offerings of the holy gifts, which the sons of Israel offer to the LORD, I have given to you and your sons and your daughters with you, as a perpetual allotment. It is (2) an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD to you and your descendants with you."

Deuteronomy 4
31 "For the LORD your God is a (1) compassionate God; (2) He will not fail you nor (3) destroy you nor (4) forget the covenant with your fathers which He swore to them.

Deuteronomy 7
9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, (1) He is God, (2) the faithful God, (3) who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who (4) love Him and keep His commandments;

Judges 2
1 Now (1) the angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to (2) Bochim. And he said, "(3) I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, '(4) I will never break My covenant with you,

Psalm 25
14
The (1) secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him,
And He will (2) make them know His covenant.

Psalm 89
34
"My (1) covenant I will not violate,
Nor will I (2) alter the utterance of My lips.

Psalm 111
9
He has sent (1) redemption to His people;
He has ordained His covenant forever;
(2) Holy and awesome is His name.

Isaiah 56
1
Thus says the LORD,
"(1) Preserve justice and do righteousness,
For My (2) salvation is about to come
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2
"How (3) blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who (4) takes hold of it;
Who (5) keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
3
Let not the (6) foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely separate me from His people."
Nor let the (7) eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."
4 For thus says the LORD,
"To the eunuchs who (8) keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And (9) hold fast My covenant,
5
To them I will give in My (10) house and within My (11) walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting (12) name which (13) will not be cut off.
6
"Also the (14) foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be His servants, every one who (15) keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7
Even (16) those I will bring to My (17) holy mountain
And (18) make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on (19) My altar;
For (20) My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples."

Luke 1
67 And his father Zacharias (73) was filled with the Holy Spirit, and (74) prophesied, saying:
68
"(75) Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited us and accomplished (76) redemption for His people,
69
And has raised up a (77) horn of salvation for us
In the house of David (78) His servant--
70
(79) As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets (80) from of old--
71
(81) Salvation (82) FROM OUR ENEMIES,
And FROM THE HAND OF ALL WHO HATE US;
72
(83) To show mercy toward our fathers,
(84) And to remember His holy covenant,
73
(85) The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,
74
To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75
(86) In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.
76
"And you, child, will be called the (87) prophet of (88) the Most High;
For you will go on (89) BEFORE THE LORD TO (90) PREPARE HIS WAYS;
77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation
By (91) the forgiveness of their sins,
78
Because of the tender mercy of our God,
With which (92) the Sunrise from on high will visit us,
79
(93) TO SHINE UPON THOSE WHO SIT IN DARKNESS AND THE SHADOW OF DEATH,
To guide our feet into the (94) way of peace."
80 (95) And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit, and he lived in the deserts until the day of his public appearance to Israel.

So, Crispie, what other derogatory comments might you like to add that denigrate the Holy Word of G-d?

I've got a suggestion for you. Instead of 'slamming' the Tanakh, why don't you try reading it? It will give you a world of wisdom.

m.d.

Hello again, Muffler.

Ok, first--please let's not let this dialogue become too heated, ok? Thanks!

Next--Muffler, what is your understanding of what is meant by "faultless" in Hebrews 8:7, and what does the writer of Hebrews mean?:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, no one would have looked for a second one." (Hebrews 8:7, The NET Bible)
[1]
[1] Biblical Studies Press. (2001; 2002). The NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press.

I look forward to your response.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[muffler dragon]

The word translated "law" in Jeremiah 31:33 is torah--instruction. Many might automatically assume by "torah" Jeremiah (and the writer of Hebrews) meant the torah of Moses. But this is not explicitly stated in the text, and there are other torahs in the Bible.

Understanding that a Jew considers the first five books of the Bible as the Torah, what else would you like to present as 'other torahs'

If Jeremiah meant to say that the torah of Moses was to written on the hearts of those in the new covenant, does that imply a part of Moses' torah, or all of it? If all of it, then what about kosher food laws, wearing clothes of mixed fabric, etc? If only part of it, how do we distinguish between the part that is still active and the part that is no longer applicable?

If it is written on your heart by the hand of G-d, you will automatically understand. Obviously, this has not been fulfilled yet.

Ithink most Christians would agree that at least some of the Mosaic code is no longer in effect, neither required for salvation nor necessary to lead a holy life. But how can you tell what is still applicable, if the torah in Jer 31 is the Mosaic torah? Abraham was faithful to God's torah (Gen 26:5), but it was obvious that Abraham was not faithful to torah as given to Moses (indeed, he was guilty of capital crimes in marrying his half-sister.)

The Torah was never required for salvation. It, in and of itself, did not salvation. It is the obedience and the heart motivation that G-d wants.

You do not know whether Abraham was given the Torah, orally, from G-d or not. Many Jewish people believe he, indeed, was.

I believe that torah in Jer 31 is refering to God's instruction, written on our hearts. It isn't found written on tablets of stone (as even Paul wrote--2 Cor 3:3, 7), which Paul called "the ministry of death." Yes, the new instruction has many parallels with the Old--because God's character never changes. But His instructions (the literal translation of "torah") for us can change.

In Christ,

Daniel

So, you too, are also calling the Torah evil (ministry of death). At least you're stating it as your opinion. I would love to see where you can validate this in the Tanakh. Sha'ul (Paul) was a torah-observant Jew who knew the Torah was good, holy, and worth living by. Do you really think he would equate it to a ministry of death?

Furthermore, what instructions would you consider worth changing if an unchanging G-d gave you something that He considered everlasting? The Torah is intact in the way it has been since day one. To insinuate otherwise, is not a good place to be.

m.d.

 

[muffler dragon]

Dear Daniel:

My apologies for heat. I've been dealing with Crispie elsewhere, and he never substantiates his opinion. Is that a valid excuse for my behavior? No. But I won't hide my emotions for the sake of it either.

Hebrews 8
A New Covenant

7 For (16) if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says,
"(17) BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT (18) A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9
(19) NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10
"(20) FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM (21) ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11
"(22) AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR (23) ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12
"(24) FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
(25) AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13 When He said, "(26) A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. (27) But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

As I have said elsewhere, and will place in this thread: the entire context of this passage is talking about the renewing of the marriage covenant between God and Israel as seen in Jeremiah 31. This has nothing to do with the gentile.

Therefore, the word faultless is something I will have to look up in the aramaic and greek to see what exactly the author is driving at. I think it is unfair to address one particular verse and say the things that Crispie purports.

m.d.

 

[muffler dragon]

I openly apologize for the heat of my arguments. I am sorry, and I will try to keep it more cordial from now on.

m.d.

 

[BInC]

*Jumping in the middle*

In response to the original question, I think what you have to keep in mind is this: Jesus commanded you to love the Lord your God. Now just think about what that means. If you truly love somone, you will desire to make them happy, right? Well, God made it pretty clear on how to make him happy. The Old Testament, especially the commandments, tell you what God wants you to do. If you do those things, it will please him. Therefore, if you truly love God you will strive to follow the Ten Commandments. In the end, it's all about love.

*ok, 2 cents deposited. resume.*

 

[New_Wineskin]

I, too, understand everything that you are saying.

m.d.

That's great , md !!

In another forum , a certain messianic just wouldn't allow anyone to be free from the Torah . In fact , she continually claimed that the Scriptures *were* god .

 

[DanielRB]

'Lo again, Muffler!

Understanding that a Jew considers the first five books of the Bible as the Torah, what else would you like to present as 'other torahs'

There are many different meanings of the word "Torah", even to the Jew. It can mean the first five books of the Bible. It can mean the actual laws contained in those first five books of the Bible. It sometimes is applied to the whole of the Tanakh. It often includes (for Rabbinic/Talmudic Jews) the oral Torah. The basic meaning of the word is "instruction." I would concede, though, that in Scripture it generally refers to the Torah of Moses.

If it is written on your heart by the hand of G-d, you will automatically understand. Obviously, this has not been fulfilled yet.

I think you have a good point here. However, if this is the case, why does the writer of Hebrews refer to Jeremiah 31 in Hebrews 8 & 10? And if we are not under the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31, then where is the New Covenant of Matt 26:28 & Mark 14:24 described? Do you believe it was prophesied in the Tanakh or not?

The Torah was never required for salvation. It, in and of itself, did not salvation. It is the obedience and the heart motivation that G-d wants.

I agree; obedience to Torah never saved. A living faith was the only thing that ever saved, then and now. (Rom 4:1ff).

You do not know whether Abraham was given the Torah, orally, from G-d or not. Many Jewish people believe he, indeed, was.

Maybe Abraham was given the law, maybe not. But he did works that were considered capital offenses under the Mosaic code (marrying his sister, for example). How could God say that Abraham obeyed His torah (Gen 26:5), if that torah was identical with the Mosaic code, when he broke it in such a serious way?

So, you too, are also calling the Torah evil (ministry of death). At least you're stating it as your opinion. I would love to see where you can validate this in the Tanakh. Sha'ul (Paul) was a torah-observant Jew who knew the Torah was good, holy, and worth living by. Do you really think he would equate it to a ministry of death?

Ok, then what do you think Paul was calling a "ministry of death" that was "engraved on stones?:

"Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you? You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. " (2 Corinthians 3:1-11, NASB95)
[1]
[1] New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995. LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Furthermore, what instructions would you consider worth changing if an unchanging G-d gave you something that He considered everlasting? The Torah is intact in the way it has been since day one. To insinuate otherwise, is not a good place to be.

zm.d.

I would not presume to say what God should or shouldn't change about His instructions to us. However, "everlasting" in Hebrew does not mean exactly what it means in English. I would highly recommend reading the article at the following link. It is quite lengthy, but I believe the author makes some excellent points on this very subject: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/finaltorah.html

And thank you for your gracious apology; I, too often get quite heated in these discussions. Forgiven and forgotten.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[DanielRB]

As I have said elsewhere, and will place in this thread: the entire context of this passage is talking about the renewing of the marriage covenant between God and Israel as seen in Jeremiah 31. This has nothing to do with the gentile.

Therefore, the word faultless is something I will have to look up in the aramaic and greek to see what exactly the author is driving at. I think it is unfair to address one particular verse and say the things that Crispie purports.

m.d.

Hi again, Muffler!

I agree that Jeremiah 31 is a New Covenant between Israel and God, and gentiles are not mentioned. I also believe that the people of God is one. The Church is Israel under a New Covenant, in which gentiles may join. Sadly, most Jews are broken off from this one people of God, but they will be re-grafted in one day. (See Rom 11 for more details.) Thus, I disagree with dispensationalists who believe that there are two people of God--Israel and the Church--and I disagree with 'replacement theology', which teaches that Israel is utterly rejected in favor of a gentile Church.

In Christ,

Daniel

 

[Bon]

what the author of Hebrews of addressing has not been fulfilled yet. Do you have the laws of G-d written on your heart? I doubt it. Why is that? Because no one does yet. Everyone is still studying and learning. When it is written on the heart, there will be no more learning, just understanding and doing.

m.d.

Wow! m.d.
I've never heard that before! Can you explain this further with some scriptures please. I have always had a different view....(but am open to figure the real and only truth)

I have always believed that the Laws are now written on the hearts of believers (of truth).

Here I go, with 'another' indepth study of 'another' subject....

with thanks from Bon

 

[Bon]

There is an interesting study on the net called THE RESTORATION OF TORAH if anyone is bothered to check it out.
It is from a Messianic point of view (of course ) and discusses the Law including the New Covenants view of the Law (Torah) etc.

It's quite lengthy but well worth a read and VERY relevant to this thread.

http://home.att.net/~tnt_robinson/wsb/TheRestorationofTorahII.htm

with thanks from Bon

 

[muffler dragon]

That's great , md !!

In another forum , a certain messianic just wouldn't allow anyone to be free from the Torah . In fact , she continually claimed that the Scriptures *were* god .

Dear NW:

Just to let you know: I wasn't giving a complete blessing to your statements. I just understand what you are saying. There are still some things I disagree with, but that's one of the things I enjoy about discoursing with you. There is no judgment coming from you within your opinions, and I try to give the same back. The only time when I get heated or nasty is when I am attacked. Granted, I need to get that under check. But it's a work in progress.

You might want to check out my "Messianic Understanding of Grace" thread in Spirit-filled forum for some ideas as to the natural progression of things in my thinking.

Shalom,

m.d.