1. Trump vs Kamala on how they see immigration. 2. Economically, why wouldn't America want immigration?

[eclipsenow]

On this page:

1. Trump vs Kamala on how they see immigration​

2. Economically, why wouldn't America want immigration?​

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1. Trump vs Kamala on how they see immigration​

This first image is Trump’s view of the world. It must be nice to have such a simple view of things. I mean – isn’t that why people vote for him?
Look at that! Just build a ‘great big beautiful wall’ and it’s fixed! Preferably dig a moat and ad crocodiles and snakes! (Yes – Trump wanted them to build that!)


Then there’s Kamala’s view of the world. Strike that – this is more like a log of her visits to the source of the problem to try and address it there. Sure – it’s a bigger, more complex view of the world – but nobody ever thought being President was easy. Oh wait….


Sure there was a post-election 'flip-flop' spike in immigration to the US. Word got out that a 'kinder' American President was in charge. This happened right when some Central American coffee plantations crashed due to bad weather and then hurricanes. Gangs did not get their 'coffee tax' protection-money payments (rackets) - and started kidnapping teenage girls as 'payment'. No wonder families fled!

But the word has got out. Biden and Kamala have a 3 pronged strategy for reducing illegal immigration. And it's starting to work!

New York Times – Nov 2024 – 16 minutes.

2. Economically, why wouldn't America want immigration?​

Imagine valuable lithium and rare earths were running down a river ‘illegally’ into the USA and companies were scooping it up and making money. Then Trump starts protesting about “illegal wealth” coming into the country. And - apparently - it’s Hannibal Lector eating the dogs!

As an Ordo-Liberal this does not just offend the lefty SJW side of me - it offends my other half - the market side of me. America has this wealth of cheap labour pouring into the country, willing to do all the jobs STEM educated Americans don’t want to do - and Conservatives COMPLAIN about it? I thought Conservatives of all people, with their nuanced understanding of human beings and their self-interest and economic motivators, would understand the market-incentives to BEHAVE WELL! Surveys show these people are generally MORE law-abiding than the average American born citizen. Why? They know they’re onto a good thing and don’t just take it for granted! They know they have to earn their right to US citizenship! Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia


Trump is no longer “dog-whistling” (see what I did there?) to the racists any more. He has so shifted the Overton window that we hear “Rapists, terrible people, threat to US, Hannibal Lector, eating the dogs” as NORMAL! Don’t be fooled. This is not an accurate account of immigrants. It is also NOT how world Statesmen speak and behave. It shows that Trump is socially and economically illiterate - and completely temperamentally unfit to hold the Office of President of the United States of America! The GOP should be ashamed that they let this man become their representative.

 

[Vambram]

Does America want the massive amounts of human trafficking that has been happening these last few years through our unsecured borders? Does America want to have over 300,000 child immigrants missing because of the failures of the Biden/Harris Department of Homeland Security?

 

[eclipsenow]

Does America want the massive amounts of human trafficking that has been happening these last few years through our unsecured borders?

Kamala's work in South America has helped reduce that business model. Check the stats! Watch the NYT video and see the 3 strategies.

Does America want to have over 300,000 child immigrants missing because of the failures of the Biden/Harris Department of Homeland Security?

What do you mean 'missing' - from government agencies or from their parents? Do you have any sources on this?

 

[Vambram]

The massive amounts of illegal immigration occurred during the Biden/Harris administration. That is a fact which cannot be denied. Also, here are some sources regarding ICE and the DHS being unable to account for the whereabouts of 300,000 immigrant children.

Michael Cloud demands answers from ICE over nearly 300,000 missing migrant children

“The Biden-Harris administration’s failure to track thousands of vulnerable migrant children is unacceptable,” he told the Washington Examiner. “Almost 300,000 children have essentially vanished under their watch, putting them at serious risk of trafficking and exploitation. This administration...

cloud.house.gov

HHS Stonewalls FOIA Request on ‘Lost’ Migrant Children

The Department of Health and Human Services has refused to provide the Center with the requested records, forcing the parties through a lengthy summary judgment process, conveniently delaying the inevitable release of this critical data until after the election.

cis.org

ICE unable to track nearly 300K immigrant children: DHS report

Nearly 300,000 children who came unaccompanied across the southern border alone never even got a court date whatsoever.

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[eclipsenow]

The massive amounts of illegal immigration occurred during the Biden/Harris administration. That is a fact which cannot be denied. Also, here are some sources regarding ICE and the DHS being unable to account for the whereabouts of 300,000 immigrant children.

Michael Cloud demands answers from ICE over nearly 300,000 missing migrant children

“The Biden-Harris administration’s failure to track thousands of vulnerable migrant children is unacceptable,” he told the Washington Examiner. “Almost 300,000 children have essentially vanished under their watch, putting them at serious risk of trafficking and exploitation. This administration...

cloud.house.gov

HHS Stonewalls FOIA Request on ‘Lost’ Migrant Children

The Department of Health and Human Services has refused to provide the Center with the requested records, forcing the parties through a lengthy summary judgment process, conveniently delaying the inevitable release of this critical data until after the election.

cis.org

ICE unable to track nearly 300K immigrant children: DHS report

Nearly 300,000 children who came unaccompanied across the southern border alone never even got a court date whatsoever.

www.newsnationnow.com

No one is denying numbers spiked due to the "Kinder President" message. But do you see the world the way Trump does? Just build a big alligator infested moat this side of the wall and you're done? Trump isn't in a rush to tell you about the hurricanes and other crop disasters that also contributed to the spike. These people would have fled anyway - whatever the administration! Trump probably doesn't even know about such things. This is his whole world - remember?

See - what Kamala did was to go there. To figure things out. How to increase immigration between South American countries - so that Venezuelans fleeing that tyranny could settle in Columbia, etc. Oh and look! Trump's graph that he holds up so boldly at his rallies is a lie. It doesn't contain this year! Why? Check it out! That's without wasting $20 billion on a useless wall (that a ladder and rope can defeat) - let alone the crocodile infested moat Trump wanted! How much would THAT have cost?

Finally - Trump didn't allow Republicans to sign the recent immigration bill. Do you LIKE the fact that he didn't sign Biden's tougher measures? Isn't that just so patriotic of him? He KEPT it 'broken' so he could CAMPAIGN on it being 'broken'!

PS: I'll have to get back to you on the 300,000 kids - soz - got lots of Real Life stuff happening this week. But I'll get back to you - I've bookmarked it all.

 

[Merrill]

We want LEGAL immigration from all over the world

We do not want mass ILLEGAL immigration from 3rd world countries

the latter causes overwhelmed hospitals and schools, poverty, crime, etc.

But let's not pretend Democrats make any distinction here: they want as many illegals as possible in this country to become new citizens and voters. Kamala has never had any intention on stopping or limiting illegal border crossings

 

[Vambram]

No one is denying numbers spiked due to the "Kinder President" message. But do you see the world the way Trump does? Just build a big alligator infested moat this side of the wall and you're done? Trump isn't in a rush to tell you about the hurricanes and other crop disasters that also contributed to the spike. These people would have fled anyway - whatever the administration! Trump probably doesn't even know about such things. This is his whole world - remember?
View attachment 356703
See - what Kamala did was to go there. To figure things out. How to increase immigration between South American countries - so that Venezuelans fleeing that tyranny could settle in Columbia, etc. Oh and look! Trump's graph that he holds up so boldly at his rallies is a lie. It doesn't contain this year! Why? Check it out! That's without wasting $20 billion on a useless wall (that a ladder and rope can defeat) - let alone the crocodile infested moat Trump wanted! How much would THAT have cost?


View attachment 356702



Finally - Trump didn't allow Republicans to sign the recent immigration bill. Do you LIKE the fact that he didn't sign Biden's tougher measures? Isn't that just so patriotic of him? He KEPT it 'broken' so he could CAMPAIGN on it being 'broken'!

PS: I'll have to get back to you on the 300,000 kids - soz - got lots of Real Life stuff happening this week. But I'll get back to you - I've bookmarked it all.

The Senate immigration bill, which was also voted down by 4 Democratic Party Senators, was a worthless piece of trash that would have done nothing to solve the problems of massive illegal immigration.

 

[eclipsenow]

But let's not pretend Democrats make any distinction here: they want as many illegals as possible in this country to become new citizens and voters. Kamala has never had any intention on stopping or limiting illegal border crossings

And... completely misses the 2 main points in the OP and denies reality.

Fact: There are OTHER COUNTRIES on earth than just the USA. Believe it or not - this means they have their OWN ISSUES! Like gangs that steal your teenage daughter when a hurricane wipes out your coffee crop! A myopic "It's all Kamala fault!" view is not informed - it's not even adult. I hope that's not what you were suggesting?

Fact: Kamala's immigration stats are now down at the Trump administration's average - and HALF what Trump's highest were!
What happened in May 2019? Did Kamala suddenly storm the White House and take over for a month and say "Welcome my voters! Welcome in!" Of course not! Guess what - even though I would love to blame it on Trump - we have to be honest adults here when considering whether or not to vote for someone with his condition. Just to maintain some credibility! There were external factors that drove that spike! I can't blame Trump for them any more than I can blame Kamala for some of the hurricanes that hurt Central America so bad. The bottom line? What excuses Trump's May 2019 numbers also reduces Biden and Kamala's record. Why? Covid was rough on many developing economies - and then climate change hit us with strong La Nina's and droughts that wiped out many crops on your side of the world - and caused flooding over here in Australia. As the Wilson Centre says:-

​

​

So where are irregular migrants coming from? The numbers vary by year and depend on external factors like conflict, natural disasters, economic downturns, crime, and political repression.​

Migration: This Time It’s Different

www.wilsoncenter.org

(Click on images for source articles)

 

[Zaha Torte]

And... completely misses the 2 main points in the OP and denies reality.

Fact: There are OTHER COUNTRIES on earth than just the USA. Believe it or not - this means they have their OWN ISSUES! Like gangs that steal your teenage daughter when a hurricane wipes out your coffee crop! A myopic "It's all Kamala fault!" view is not informed - it's not even adult. I hope that's not what you were suggesting?

Fact: Kamala's immigration stats are now down at the Trump administration's average - and HALF what Trump's highest were!
What happened in May 2019? Did Kamala suddenly storm the White House and take over for a month and say "Welcome my voters! Welcome in!" Of course not! Guess what - even though I would love to blame it on Trump - we have to be honest adults here when considering whether or not to vote for someone with his condition. Just to maintain some credibility! There were external factors that drove that spike! I can't blame Trump for them any more than I can blame Kamala for some of the hurricanes that hurt Central America so bad. The bottom line? What excuses Trump's May 2019 numbers also reduces Biden and Kamala's record. Why? Covid was rough on many developing economies - and then climate change hit us with strong La Nina's and droughts that wiped out many crops on your side of the world - and caused flooding over here in Australia. As the Wilson Centre says:-

​

​

So where are irregular migrants coming from? The numbers vary by year and depend on external factors like conflict, natural disasters, economic downturns, crime, and political repression.​

Migration: This Time It’s Different

www.wilsoncenter.org

(Click on images for source articles)

View attachment 356705


View attachment 356706

They started flying them in and funneling them through the ports. Kind of makes your graphs useless and the problem worse.

 

[Richard T]

I myself like NAFTA to become a common market. Politically it is not viable so we have broken legal system and that is what many in power want. The problem is that we could get far better legal immigrants than what we get now. It still takes two years or more for some family members to get a visa to the USA, and they pay, have a sponsor, have a health check up, etc.

 

[friend of]

Yeah why wouldn't we want to import a whole bunch of people who doesn't speak english and who eat up tax dollars like air.

 

[eclipsenow]

They started flying them in and funneling them through the ports. Kind of makes your graphs useless and the problem worse.

Ah, but this was also true when Trump started throwing fuel on the fire of all this racist nonsense back in 2015!
It didn't stop him droning on and on and on about building the wall, making Mexico pay, etc.


And yet he STILL goes on about the border as if that's where the majority of this problem comes from!
And you seem well read - for a Republican - given you even know ports and planes are the MAIN way illegals arrive!
I wonder how many of your fellow activists even know ports and planes are a thing in this discussion?
Many appear to just watch Fox and believe every single lie Trump declares - whether big or small.

So - anyway - getting back to it now that we've acknowledged that TRUMP DEFINES immigration by what's happening at that pesky southern border - where he wants to build a wall with an alligator infested moat - how about those numbers above hey? Kamala's back on track right? Good job Kamala - and this DESPITE Trump not letting Republicans sign the even tougher immigration act floated this year!

Are you proud of Trump for that?
Where's his protection of his country - when a bill like that comes along you sign it if it's an issue you really care about.

But no. Just as he doesn't want to miss a photo-op - he doesn't want to miss a chance to delay solving a problem so he can campaign and whine about that problem!

 

[eclipsenow]

Yeah why wouldn't we want to import a whole bunch of people who doesn't speak english and who eat up tax dollars like air.

They can learn English.
Studies show despite whatever tax dollars they 'eat up' - they generate more wealth to the economy than they cost!

“Some research suggests that immigration is beneficial to the United States economy. With few exceptions, the evidence suggests that on average, immigration has positive economic effects on the native population, but it is mixed as to whether low-skilled immigration adversely affects low-skilled natives. Studies also show that immigrants have lower crime rates than natives in the United States.” Immigration to the United States - Wikipedia )

 

[KCfromNC]

a whole bunch of people who doesn't speak english

Uh...

 

[KCfromNC]

They can learn English.
Studies show despite whatever tax dollars they 'eat up' - they generate more wealth to the economy than they cost!

Unlike residents of red states, I might add, which on average eat up more tax dollars than they generate. If we're really concerned about subsidizing deadbeats, that seems like a better place to start.

But I imagine this, like many other right wing excuses, isn't really the reason for the opposition to immigration. It's just an excuse trotted out when the real reason can't be discussed openly.

 

[High Fidelity]

There’s a very big difference between controlled immigration and uncontrolled immigration.

The economy would benefit from allowing in professionals that have professional jobs lined up.

The economy would benefit far less (or suffer) by allowing in a lot of unskilled labour.

The best balance, in my opinion, is what Canada has whereby individual provinces survey labour demands within industry and allow and incentivise immigration wherever there are job shortages, including unskilled and semi-skilled labour.

 

[Merrill]

And... completely misses the 2 main points in the OP and denies reality.

Fact: There are OTHER COUNTRIES on earth than just the USA. Believe it or not - this means they have their OWN ISSUES! Like gangs that steal your teenage daughter when a hurricane wipes out your coffee crop! A myopic "It's all Kamala fault!" view is not informed - it's not even adult. I hope that's not what you were suggesting?

Fact: Kamala's immigration stats are now down at the Trump administration's average - and HALF what Trump's highest were!
What happened in May 2019? Did Kamala suddenly storm the White House and take over for a month and say "Welcome my voters! Welcome in!" Of course not! Guess what - even though I would love to blame it on Trump - we have to be honest adults here when considering whether or not to vote for someone with his condition. Just to maintain some credibility! There were external factors that drove that spike! I can't blame Trump for them any more than I can blame Kamala for some of the hurricanes that hurt Central America so bad. The bottom line? What excuses Trump's May 2019 numbers also reduces Biden and Kamala's record. Why? Covid was rough on many developing economies - and then climate change hit us with strong La Nina's and droughts that wiped out many crops on your side of the world - and caused flooding over here in Australia. As the Wilson Centre says:-

​

​

So where are irregular migrants coming from? The numbers vary by year and depend on external factors like conflict, natural disasters, economic downturns, crime, and political repression.​

Migration: This Time It’s Different

www.wilsoncenter.org

(Click on images for source articles)

View attachment 356705


View attachment 356706

I don't know who you are trying to gaslight with this nonsense

The Biden administration removed restrictions and lessened enforcement in 2021, leading to an explosion of illegal immigration

Key facts about U.S. immigration policies and Biden’s proposed changes

Since Joe Biden took office in 2021, his administration has acted on a number of fronts to reverse Trump-era restrictions on immigration.

www.pewresearch.org

some restrictions were put back into place this year. Why?

Because Biden and Harris wanted to lessen the impact of this issue during the campaign season

If Harris wins the election, ALL restrictions will be removed, and illegal immigration will once again look like the graph aboce

In 2019, when asked during the Democratic debate whether or not border crossings should be decriminalized, Kamala Harris raised her hand. This was consistent with statements she had made in the past.

But you don't have to believe me on this: if she wins the election, watch what happens next year

 

[Zaha Torte]

Ah, but this was also true when Trump started throwing fuel on the fire of all this racist nonsense back in 2015!
It didn't stop him droning on and on and on about building the wall, making Mexico pay, etc.
View attachment 356711

And yet he STILL goes on about the border as if that's where the majority of this problem comes from!
And you seem well read - for a Republican - given you even know ports and planes are the MAIN way illegals arrive!
I wonder how many of your fellow activists even know ports and planes are a thing in this discussion?
Many appear to just watch Fox and believe every single lie Trump declares - whether big or small.

So - anyway - getting back to it now that we've acknowledged that TRUMP DEFINES immigration by what's happening at that pesky southern border - where he wants to build a wall with an alligator infested moat - how about those numbers above hey? Kamala's back on track right? Good job Kamala - and this DESPITE Trump not letting Republicans sign the even tougher immigration act floated this year!

Are you proud of Trump for that?
Where's his protection of his country - when a bill like that comes along you sign it if it's an issue you really care about.

But no. Just as he doesn't want to miss a photo-op - he doesn't want to miss a chance to delay solving a problem so he can campaign and whine about that problem!

I was not referring to Visa overstays - but all the unvetted "refugees".

There is nothing racist about walls. The wall would be effective at limiting illegal crossings and drugs as well.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Does America want the massive amounts of human trafficking that has been happening these last few years through our unsecured borders? Does America want to have over 300,000 child immigrants missing because of the failures of the Biden/Harris Department of Homeland Security?

Its not just that, we are a market economy.

The OP rightly noted that but failed to note that people who are in the STEM fields aren't the only people wanting jobs in America. We have citizens here who do and need to do manual labour also, and many of them are out of work and need decent paying jobs too.

They are flooding the market with illegals which depresses wages and makes it nearly impossible for Americans to compete in the job market because they don't live 25 to a house.

They are also depressing wages at a time America is losing our manufacturing base...

This is not a sustainable situation for anyone, as it's designed to make slaves of everyone. This is why all these big corporations and corporate interest politicians are behind, or at least 1 reason they are behind, open borders. It depresses wages.

 

[eclipsenow]

There’s a very big difference between controlled immigration and uncontrolled immigration.

I agree that a nation has a duty to protect their borders and control immigration. But the way Trump speaks about immigrants is incorrect and immoral. He is the crudest epitome of what Sociologists call "Othering" - and he does it in the foulest manner possible.
"They're eating the dogs" is a 1970's racist trope - and I nearly spat out my Milo when he said it!

The economy would benefit from allowing in professionals that have professional jobs lined up.

MAGA's would just complain they're taking the best jobs - why aren't there any STEM jobs for true-blooded Americans? Why are we letting "them" taint our blood?

The economy would benefit far less (or suffer) by allowing in a lot of unskilled labour.

Again - surveys show this is incorrect.

“Some research suggests that immigration is beneficial to the United States economy. With few exceptions, the evidence suggests that on average, immigration has positive economic effects on the native population, but it is mixed as to whether low-skilled immigration adversely affects low-skilled natives. Studies also show that immigrants have lower crime rates than natives in the United States.” Immigration to the United States - Wikipedia )

The best approach allows desired skilled and unskilled labour in - and meets a certain fair refugee intake as well. There are ways to calculate what that is. I think it's covered in this episode of Undeceptions. The Refugee