1 timothy 2:9-15 woMen

[SunnyLin]

in 1 timothy 2:9-15, paul writes a lot about the role of women and a bit how they are supposed to be submissive to men. he also mentions that eve commited THE original sin and therefor women are more succeptable to deception and should not be allowed to serve in the church.

i sure hope there is another interpertation of this xD. is there?


"1 Timothy 2:9-15:
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For adam was formed first, not eve. And adam was not deceived; it was the woman who deceived and became a sinner. But womn will be saved through childbearing- if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety"

 

i dont want to contradict what the apostle paul says, because he is respected and was a great folower of Christ... but i always assumed that since God punished adam as well as eve, Adam also sinned when he took the bite out of the forbidden fruit, by denying that he did it on his own accord (blaming it on teh wife *GOD gave him*) Adam furthered his sin.

the way Paul speaks makes it sound as if men are angelic and women are the root of all evil, with only a small chance of redeeming themselves

 

[D-Lyte]

I guess it depends on how you interpret it. I do not see men as more angelic than women. Afterall, "we all have sinned." And  there are no different standards for salvation for men and women.

 

[Susan]

I agree with the passage, although I personally don't see why God in His wisdom chose to keep punishing women for their ancestor's sins while men are no longer charged with Adam's sin.

Whatever. . .you just have to do what you're supposed to do and what you're told I guess.

 

[SunnyLin]

i dont quite undesrtand the severity of "women must be silent" but i think now God has helped me to understand why women must be subordinate and can not have supreme authority over men. trew, i still have questions unanswered. but i'm finally close to peace about the subject after a few months. thanks and glory be to GOd!

As for the comment about eve... i was always under the impression that Adam sinned just as much as eve... is this not paul's view?

 

[LouisBooth]

well depends on how you look at it. Paul might be saying, in the literalist sence, Adam was no decieved, but he commited a worse sin and went along with what he knew to be wrong. In Paul's mind that would be a "worse" sin then eve being decieved...a husband not being a husband.

 

[SunnyLin]

oh, i see your point! but is a husband's job is to do what the wife says even though he knows it is wrong?

 

[D-Lyte]

A husband or not, he (Adam) should do what God say to do...not what others say. He is the one we answer to.  We do the things we do (obeying the law, preach, etc) because of Him.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by SunnyLin
adam was not deceived; it was the woman who deceived and became a sinner.

Adam was not deceived. He knew what he was doing was wrong. Eve was deceived, she did not think what she was doing was wrong. For that reason a women is not to have authority over a man.

Ephes. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The apostles today are usually refered to as Bishops. They should have been pastors for at least 15 or 20 years and so they become a pastors pastor to help them out with whatever issues they maybe having in their churches.

 

[SunnyLin]

is it worse to be tricked into sin or to sin knowing full well that what you are doing is against God's will??

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by SunnyLin
is it worse to be tricked into sin or to sin knowing full well that what you are doing is against God's will??

It is worse to sin in full knowledge of the truth. Of course there is still a price to pay for those who sin in ignorance.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by SunnyLin
oh, i see your point! but is a husband's job is to do what the wife says even though he knows it is wrong?

Both the husband and the wife should do what God says, no matter what. It is just that God does not appoint the women, He appoints the man to be the head priest in the home.

Of course in the Kingdom of God, those who are appointed to be the leader are the ones who are to be the greatest servant. Jesus came to serve and to sacrifice Himself for many. The husband is to serve the family and sacrifice himself for their benifit.

We really need to allow God to purify our hearts.

 

[SunnyLin]

oh wow, i understand a lot more now. but then, if sinning knowing with knowledge is worse than sinning without, why does paul say taht women are to be subordinate because of eve's sin? adam's sin was worse. paul does not even mention adam's sin and the only tother hing he has to justify women subordination is that "adam was formed first"

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For adam was formed first, not eve. And adam was not deceived; it was the woman who deceived and became a sinner."

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by SunnyLin
why does paul say that women are to be subordinate because of eve's sin? adam's sin was worse.

This has to do with correct doctorine. How many great theology students do you know that are women. I do not know of one.

First you have apostles, which in todays church is the Bishop. Someone who was a pastor for many years and has proven his ability to get along with people and has shown that he can properly handle the word of truth.

Then you have prophets, evangelists and then pastors and teachers. The Evangelist comes before the pastor, because you have to get people saved, before you can pastor them.

In some cases, you have women who are serving as a associate pastor in a church. But they are mostly ministering to the needs of the people. It is up to the senior pastor to set forth the proper teaching and doctorine. 

Older women are to minister to the needs of the younger women, and to the children. They are to teach the younger women what is right and proper. You would not want the men to minister to the younger women trying to tell them how to love their husbands, that would be a disaster.

God has established a lot of order in his church.

 

[LouisBooth]

"husband's job is to do what the wife says even though he knows it is wrong?"

NO NO NO, it is the husband's job to protect his wife which adam did not do.

 

[LouisBooth]

"why does paul say that women are to be subordinate because of eve's sin? adam's sin was worse"

Ahh.. again a confusion. To God sin is sin, there are no degrees. To break any of the law is to break all of it. The consequences are different (physical ones) but the spiritual consequence is always the same, it seperates you from God. Women are subordinate to men because that was what God judged upon eve.

Gen 3:16 "...Your desire will be fore your husband, and he will rule over you."
The word used for "he will rule" is listed below

mashal {maw-shal'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1259; v

AV - rule 38, ruler 19, reign 8, dominion 7, governor 4, ruled over 2,
power 2, indeed 1; 81

1) to rule, have dominion, reign
1a) (Qal) to rule, have dominion
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to cause to rule

1b2) to exercise dominion

 

[scott]

Remember in Romans it says that sin came on us all through Adam.
Susan, men are still under the curse just as much as women.
Sunnylinn maybe it would help you to know that it's a matter of position not worth. Scripture says that man is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. There must be a leader and God made the man the leader. He formed man first then the woman. God doesn't love men more. The position of head carries alot of responsibility. As leader of my home I am responsible before God for my family. The woman is protected from that accounting by her husband. I've been a boss and I've been an employee. An employee has a much less stressful life. The role of headship isn't about power, it's about sacrifice, stewardship, serving, loving, protecting. We as men are to be Christ's example to our wives and children.And any good husband will tell you that his wife is a great helper (as God created women to be) to his task. The most important thing to remember is that God designed it this way for a reason. He is a little bit wiser than we are. Why ask why just trust.

 

[SunnyLin]

"Older women are to minister to the needs of the younger women, and to the children. They are to teach the younger women what is right and proper. You would not want the men to minister to the younger women trying to tell them how to love their husbands, that would be a disaster. "

"To God sin is sin, there are no degrees. To break any of the law is to break all of it. Women are subordinate to men because that was what God judged upon eve. "

"that it's a matter of position not worth. Scripture says that man is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. There must be a leader and God made the man the leader. "

powerful words, thank you all!

 

[Force]

Eve was not the only one punished...........Adam also was punished..."plow the fields or something" another words work the land forever.  And the serpent was also punished by having its legs taken away etc.

Also what Paul was talking about a lot of it was taken out of context.  The women in his church had begun to speak loudly against things and were causing dissent among the believers....That is why Paul told them to shut up.

 

[SunnyLin]

ooh! i knew there was some background information on that, i just didnt know how to get it. :o  i need to take some biblical classes :o

 

[Force]

What exactly do you want to do in the ministry sunnylin?