1 Tim 4:10 and limited atonement

[jonas3]

This is still rather strange to me. My kids are 5 and 7.....they have no idea on regenerate, sovereingty as u said. Heck, Im still learning a good chunck of this myself. While we were at Billy Graham a few months ago, during the kids section, my kids wanted to go forward for the altar call so we took them. Are they in an unsaved state since the theology on those types of events is rather "soft", and they dont really understand TULIP and the 5 solas(as I havent taught them yet). I know its my responsability to make sure my family is on the right road in respect to God, but at what point do I start teaching them this, and where should I start?

Hello shadrach, for starters, let me state that Billy Graham is unregenerate, and a false professor of Christianity. Let me further state that Billy Graham is ignorant of the gospel of Jesus Christ and preaches a totally different gospel, which is accursed. I exhort you to never take your children to anything related to his antichrist ministry. He preaches the false gospel of conditional salvation and universal atonement, and should be separated from as an unbeliever (2Cor 6:14). Billy Graham’s theology is not just “soft”, but accursed. In the false gospel he preaches, the difference between salvation and damnation is not determined by what Christ has done, but what the sinner must do. I speak the truth in this matter, and I lie not. Furthermore,

Take the Passover for example (Exodus 12). It was the blood that made the difference. The blood was not on the houses of the Egyptians. Just think of a "passover" in which the blood was on everyone's house without exception (i.e. what Billy Graham preaches (i.e. universal atonement)), and a "god" who would kill the firstborn in some of the houses on which there was blood. In this "passover," the blood itself wouldn't make the difference between which houses were passed over and which houses were condemned. There would have to be one of two things going on: Either this “god” thinks the blood has no importance and just condemns at random, or this “god” finds something good in some of the houses with blood on them as compared to other houses with blood on them, thus not basing his passing over on the blood at all but on something in the households themselves. Then the question must be asked, "Well, why would the blood on the house be needed at all, since it doesn't make the difference between being passed over and being condemned?" The answer is, "The blood wouldn't be needed at all. The blood itself is without value."

Now, the blood of Jesus Christ is of infinite value! When God sees the blood applied to His people, THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION! Christ's obedience unto death, the blood of His cross, is the ONLY thing that makes the difference between heaven and hell! This is what you should teach your children (Ex 12:26-27), and you should teach them the gospel from birth.

Lastly, a person knows that they are regenerate, if they believe the gospel, which is God’s promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. Do you believe this? Do your children believe this? Now, if someone truly does believe the gospel, then they will automatically believe that any other gospel is false, and they will not tolerate it or those who profess it. Since a regenerate person believes that their salvation is not conditioned on themselves in anyway they will automatically believe in the doctrines of grace (i.e. TULIP), but they do not have to know that TULIP exists, or be able to write a discourse on TULIP. If you asked a newly regenerate person if they believed in TULIP and they answer, “I don’t know, what it that?” this does NOT necessarily mean they are unregenerate. You would discover this through further discourse with them. A regenerate person never conditions their salvation on themselves; therefore, they will never profess a belief contrary TULIP (i.e. such as: partial depravity, conditional election, universal atonement, resistible grace, conditional perseverance). They do not have to use all of the same words to state their belief, and the vocabulary that a person uses might be different, but if they are regenerate, then their language will be inline with the gospel. For example, if someone truly believes the gospel, then they would never say that their salvation is condition on their ability to persevere, or to keep themselves in the faith; therefore, they believe in the perseverance of the saints (i.e. that they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (1Pet 1:5)). You see how that works? Simply because they believe that their salvation is NOT conditioned on themselves in anyway, but on the finished work of Christ on the cross, they automatically believe in TULIP, although they might not have any idea what TULIP is, and they might express this belief differently, or in a less articulate manner (i.e. limited vocabulary). A newly regenerate Christian may be ignorant of things in Scripture, but they are NOT ignorant of the gospel. All regenerate people believe the gospel (2Cor 4:3). A regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) will never say that they, “accepted Christ as their savior”, or that they, “invited Christ into their heart”, or anything to that effect, because those statements (like others) condition salvation on the sinners efforts, which is something a regenerate person would never do.

-jonas

 

[jonas3]

I would like to ask a question here: Who saves you? Is it the Lord Jesus or is it your orthodoxy?

To answer your question Jesus Christ alone! Only an unregenerate person would confess that their orthodoxy saves them, or that their knowledge of the gospel saves them. True faith professes that there are no prerequisites for salvation since Jesus Christ has met all of the conditions for the salvation of His people through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. By regeneration of the Holy Spirit God’s people are saved. Their sins are forgiven them (i.e. washed away by His atoning blood) and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them (i.e. they are made perfectly holy in the eyes of God having a perfect righteousness that now equals His righteousness).

However, upon regeneration, God’s people are GIVEN KNOWLEDGE of the gospel. Once they were blind, and now they see. Once they were ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, and now they rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Once the things of the Spirit of God were foolishness onto them, but now it is the power of God. Once they were totally depraved, but now they believe upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Once the gospel was hidden unto them, and they were lost, but now the glorious gospel of Christ has shined unto them.

If a person does not believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, then that person is currently lost (i.e. unregenerate) (1Cor 4:3). There exist no Christian who is ignorant of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which conditions salvation alone on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ towards His people alone. In Romans 10:2 it is written,

“For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” – Ro 10:2.

There are many people who have, “a zeal of God”, but, “not according to knowledge”. What does this mean? It means that they APPEAR to have a form of godliness, but they lack true knowledge. They call themselves Christians, are very sincere in their beliefs, live moral lives, and strive to obey God’s commands; however, despite their “zeal”, they are ignorant of something. What are they ignorant of? What knowledge do they lack? We read in the next verse,

“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” – Ro 10:3.

These people are, “ignorant of God’s righteousness”, which shows that they are ignorant of the gospel, as it is written,

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." - Ro 1:16-17.

They lack the knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and are going about to establish their own righteousness, because they are ignorant of God’s righteousness. All those who do not believe that the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone demands the salvation of all whom He died are unregenerate. Furthermore, all those who profess that their salvation is somehow conditioned on themselves, or believe that others are saved who profess that their salvation is somehow conditioned on themselves are unregenerate. They do not believe (i.e. understand) the gospel. They do not believe that true faith professes that Jesus Christ met all of the conditions for salvation; therefore, when they say that others are saved who do not profess that Jesus Christ met all of the conditions for salvation, they show themselves to be unregenerate, because they are implying that they believed that they were saved when they conditioned salvation on themselves. Now if a person believes that someone is saved (i.e. regenerate) while conditioning salvation on themselves, then they must believe that to be the true gospel, or at least an acceptable gospel; therefore, Christians can rightly judge that person to be lost and ignorant of the gospel, because the true gospel only conditions salvation on the work of Christ, and a Christian would never profess that they were saved when they believed a false gospel of salvation conditioned on the sinner.

Furthermore, the atonement is the central message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, for the gospel is God’s promise to save solely His people from their sins (Mat 1:22) conditioned on the atoning blood (Heb 9:12-14) and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Ro 4:6-8). Nothing they did merited the grace of God to be bestowed upon them (Titus 3:5), for Christ's Church stands by God's election (Ro 11:5). If a person does not have a proper understanding of the atonement, then that person is unregenerate (i.e. not saved) since they do not believe the gospel. The gospel is hidden to them, and they are lost (2Cor 4:3). The truth of the atonement (or reconciliation) is this,

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." - Jn 10:11. (KJV)

"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." - Jn 10:15. (KJV)

"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." - Jn 10:27-28. (KJV)

"4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we [the elect] have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" - Eph 1:4-7. (KJV)

"25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." - Eph 5:25-27. (KJV)

It is evident from Scripture that God has a remnant according to the election of grace (Ro 11:5), and that Christ came and died to redeem this remnant (i.e. the elect) alone. This knowledge is most definitely apart of the gospel, and those who do not believe the truth about the atonement are lost according to 2Cor 4:3-4.

Those who believe that Jesus died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) do not believe the gospel, because they do not believe that it is the work of Christ alone that makes the difference between salvation and damnation, but that it is the conditional work of the sinner to have “faith” in order to make Christ’s sacrifice effective towards him. What damnable accursed blasphemy! All of God’s regenerated elect should hate this false gospel lie with a perfect hatred. All those who profess this anti-gospel of universal atonement are lost; including all those who say that those who believe this anti-gospel are not lost (i.e. they call them brothers in Christ).

Here are some additional Scripture references to review,

"16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mark 16:16

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Jn 3:18

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." - Ro 1:16-17

"3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2Cor 4:3-4

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" - 1Pet 4:17

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11

-jonas

 

[Jon_]

Jonas, would you be willing to engage me in an informal debate on your position? I would like to settle this issue for the forum conclusively.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Proeliator]

Ok, Jonas, you said a whole lot there, but I still didnt get an answer to my question as to when I should start teaching my children the actual theology of the Doctrines of Grace. Maybe someone else would be willing to answer, since Im rather shaken up by the fact of some of the things you had to say.

 

[Jon_]

Ok, Jonas, you said a whole lot there, but I still didnt get an answer to my question as to when I should start teaching my children the actual theology of the Doctrines of Grace. Maybe someone else would be willing to answer, since Im rather shaken up by the fact of some of the things you had to say.

Jonas is misrepresenting the facts, shadrach. Do not allow his distortions to affect you. Lord-willing, Jonas will agree to my challenge and we will have the opportunity to see his doctrines systematically disassembled.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[5solas]

To answer your question Jesus Christ alone! Only an unregenerate person would confess that their orthodoxy saves them, or that their knowledge of the gospel saves them. True faith professes that there are no prerequisites for salvation since Jesus Christ has met all of the conditions for the salvation of His people through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. By regeneration of the Holy Spirit God’s people are saved. Their sins are forgiven them (i.e. washed away by His atoning blood) and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them (i.e. they are made perfectly holy in the eyes of God having a perfect righteousness that now equals His righteousness).

However, upon regeneration, God’s people are GIVEN KNOWLEDGE of the gospel.

I fully agree with your statement in the first paragraph but then (and also reading your other statements you posted here) I get the impression that you represent some kind of "gnosis"; I get the impression that something more is necessary than the simple belief in the things you mentioned in the first paragraph. We all have to acknowledge that we have the whole truth in the Bible but that we as human beings are still not able to grasp and apply that biblical truth fully in a perfect way (as I mentioned before when I cited Gill) - we are still humans and only God/Jesus/The Holy Ghost has this full knowledge and ability/capability to apply it in a perfect way. I hope you do understand what I mean because English is not my mother tongue.

I am worried because it seems to me that you lay a burden on people (and yourself) that is not necessary.

 

[jonas3]

Jonas is misrepresenting the facts, shadrach. Do not allow his distortions to affect you.

That, of course, is a false accusation. I state the facts very clearly, and I stand behind every word I say.

Lord-willing, Jonas will agree to my challenge and we will have the opportunity to see his doctrines systematically disassembled.

I am happy to further discuss this topic with you Jon; however, I doubt we will "settle" the issue. If we could, I would like to keep it as semi-formal as possible. It would be nice to have an opening statement in which we stated our position, and it would be nice to limit the conversation to one question/post in order to keep the topic focused. Furthermore, it would be really nice, if it is possible, to have a private thread that no one else can respond to, but that is also publicly readable; however, I doubt that this is possible unless one of the moderators could arranged it for us? If you want to go ahead and, “set it up” by creating a new topic, introducing the purpose of the topic, and write your opening statement, then I will be happy to further discuss the matter. If you would, look into the possibility of a private thread that only we can respond to, because when many other people start responding the topic tends to lose its focus. Anyway, if you want, PM me when everything is ready to go.

-jonas

 

[Jon_]

I am happy to further discuss this topic with you Jon; however, I doubt we will "settle" the issue. If we could, I would like to keep it as semi-formal as possible. It would be nice to have an opening statement in which we stated our position, and it would be nice to limit the conversation to one question/post in order to keep the topic focused. Furthermore, it would be really nice, if it is possible, to have a private thread that no one else can respond to, but that is also publicly readable; however, I doubt that this is possible unless one of the moderators could arranged it for us? If you want to go ahead and, “set it up” by creating a new topic, introducing the purpose of the topic, and write your opening statement, then I will be happy to further discuss the matter. If you would, look into the possibility of a private thread that only we can respond to, because when many other people start responding the topic tends to lose its focus. Anyway, if you want, PM me when everything is ready to go.

I will research the possibility of a private thread where only you and I can post. It might be possible to complete the thread and then just have it locked, so that no one can post in it. I think we could also count on the honor of our fellow posters to not post in the thread. I will ask that they would not in the opening of the thread.

I will see about a private thread and then hopefully post it this evening.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

Jonas, the thread has been posted in the Congregation-specific Ethics subforum of the Christian Philosophy & Ethics forum. The title of the thread is, "Closed Debate: Who then can be saved?" You can get to it from this link:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2158377-closed-debate-who-then-can-be-saved.html#post18885852

Please look over the initial post I made and verify that I have correctly represented your position. I believe that I have bene faithful to your argument, but feel free to correct or revise what I have said. As soon as you sign off on that, I will open the debate. My opening is intended to get directly to the heart of the matter. I hadn't even considered an opening statement because I believe this issue to be so fundamental that it doesn't require redress.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Proeliator]

Jon_ How would I go about to subscribing to that thread when Im not posting on it, as I would much like to see this...

 

[reformedfan]

post something there, then edit it so only as character or two remains, mebbe.

 

[Jon_]

Jon_ How would I go about to subscribing to that thread when Im not posting on it, as I would much like to see this...

Just make a post and in the body of the post say, "subscribe," or something like that.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[5solas]

Just make a post and in the body of the post say, "subscribe," or something like that.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I found out (too late though ) that one could press "thread tools" and then just press "subscribe to this thread"; so one does not even have to write something into that thread....

 

[cygnusx1]

thanks guys ......... I just went here


http://www.christianforums.com/t2158377-closed-debate-who-then-can-be-saved.html#post18885852

and it opened straight up , no secret code needed......and no special button to press.....

 

[Jon_]

Feel free to use this thread or to start a new one for comments regarding the debate, too.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Getting back to the OP, IF salvation is limited to only the elect why verses such as -

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Salvation can't be offered to anyone for who Christ did not die, yet it is to be proclaimed to all -

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Could a Calvinist look an unsaved person in the eye and say with confidence, "Christ died for you !" That person may not be one of the elect and such a statement could therefore be untrue. A Calvinist, therefore, cannot, and dare not assure a dying person that Christ died for him. Thus, Calvinism denies the gospel of God's grace !

How, if salvation is limited only to the elect, could Paul tell the Philippian jailer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" if Christ had not died for him and his family ?? Did Paul have a special revelation that this entire family was among the elect - or is the gospel for all ?? How could Peter say to thousands of Jews gathered on Pentecost, "Repent and be baptised every one of you" if Christ had not died for each and every one of them ??

Just as Calvinists often condradict Calvin and one another, Calvin contradicted himself at times. He made statements both supporting unlimited atonement and at other times in favour of limited atonement. Referring to Isaiah 53:12 he said, "on Him was laid the guilt of the whole world" (1) Concerning Mark 14:24, "This is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many," Calvin said, "The word many does not mean a part of the world, but the whole human race."(2) Where is "limited atonement" ??

Also, a major problem for Calvinists is how to be certain that one is among the elect, for whom alone, alledgedly, Christ died. Calvin himself had an uncertainty - in his will, drawn up shortly before his death, Calvin wrote, "I humbly seek from God...to be washed and purified by the great Redeemer's blood, shed for the sins of the human race." (3) How could this be, the supposedly greatest of exegetes seem unsure of his salvation, in spite of Scriptures absolute assurance -

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Such assurance comes not by a special revelation that one is among the elect but by simple faith in Christ, "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

1) George Zeller, cited in "For Whom did Christ die ?", pp. 23-24
2) John Calvin, "Calvin's New Testament Commentaries", III:139
3) same as # 1

(The above taken from Dave Hunt's book, "What Love Is This ? - Calvin's Misrepresentation of God" http://www.thebereancall.org/default.aspx)


Ray

 

[cygnusx1]

Getting back to the OP, IF salvation is limited to only the elect why verses such as -

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Salvation can't be offered to anyone for who Christ did not die, yet it is to be proclaimed to all -

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Could a Calvinist look an unsaved person in the eye and say with confidence, "Christ died for you !" That person may not be one of the elect and such a statement could therefore be untrue. A Calvinist, therefore, cannot, and dare not assure a dying person that Christ died for him. Thus, Calvinism denies the gospel of God's grace !

How, if salvation is limited only to the elect, could Paul tell the Philippian jailer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" if Christ had not died for him and his family ?? Did Paul have a special revelation that this entire family was among the elect - or is the gospel for all ?? How could Peter say to thousands of Jews gathered on Pentecost, "Repent and be baptised every one of you" if Christ had not died for each and every one of them ??

Just as Calvinists often condradict Calvin and one another, Calvin contradicted himself at times. He made statements both supporting unlimited atonement and at other times in favour of limited atonement. Referring to Isaiah 53:12 he said, "on Him was laid the guilt of the whole world" (1) Concerning Mark 14:24, "This is My blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many," Calvin said, "The word many does not mean a part of the world, but the whole human race."(2) Where is "limited atonement" ??

Also, a major problem for Calvinists is how to be certain that one is among the elect, for whom alone, alledgedly, Christ died. Calvin himself had an uncertainty - in his will, drawn up shortly before his death, Calvin wrote, "I humbly seek from God...to be washed and purified by the great Redeemer's blood, shed for the sins of the human race." (3) How could this be, the supposedly greatest of exegetes seem unsure of his salvation, in spite of Scriptures absolute assurance -

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Such assurance comes not by a special revelation that one is among the elect but by simple faith in Christ, "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

1) George Zeller, cited in "For Whom did Christ die ?", pp. 23-24
2) John Calvin, "Calvin's New Testament Commentaries", III:139
3) same as # 1

(The above taken from Dave Hunt's book, "What Love Is This ? - Calvin's Misrepresentation of God" http://www.thebereancall.org/default.aspx)


Ray

Let us be quite clear about this , the Gospel Offer is NOT based upon a notion that Christ died for every sinner ......... what would be the point of dying for millions already in hell ?
What would be the point in dying for Millions who never hear the Gospel ?

It is an open invitation to trust in Christ Jesus as a full and sufficient sacrifice has been made for sin .

I f Jesus had soley died for one person , it would be sufficient to offer that same sacrifice to all men ......... for it is a sacrifice for sin....... and it is suitable to the needs of all men.

Notice that in the preaching of the Gospel the Apostles NEVER say "Christ died for YOU ... therefore believe"
They say ''Christ died for sinners'' , they say ''Repent'' , they say if you believe on Christ and turn from sin you will be saved.

in summary :

There is all sufficiency in The Death of Christ and His atoning Blood to cover all who will come to Him for life .
''Whosoever will'' is about as wide an invitation as language is capable of.
There is ample medicine for every man's ailment' , but the medicine is only for them that come..... there is no cure for those who refuse God's healing.

 

[mannysee]

Concerning Limited Atonement.

We have the forerunner in Israel.

On the Day of Atonement(Yom Kippur), when the high priest was required to sacrifice and sprinkle blood on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies, was that Atonement for everyone, including the pagans who surrounded Israel, or was it exclusively for Israel only?

thanks for that thought. I usually come across elect atonement arguments for/against using NT references on the forums. Thinking in terms of the OT shadow as well seems a good way to reinforce arguments for.