I believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient, however, I am curious as to how to reconcile Samuel's statement that God would have established Saul's kingdom forever in light of Jacob's (Israel) prophecy that the scepter would not leave Judah and Saul being of the tribe of Benjamin. Since Christ's rule as LORD and King from everlasting to everlasting will successfully fulfil the prophecy on the part of Judah, I have no doubt God had forseen Saul's fall. I still have problems with the statement that God would have established his kingdom, since this would obviously conflict with previous statements of God's will. Is this simply a translation problem from the Hebrew where we are not particularly sure of the meaning? or is it one of the statements from the samuel books that has tenuous grasp fromt he LXX, MSS, and Septaguint?
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1 Samuel 13:13
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You are correct that it is difficult to reconcile passages like I Sam.8 with Gen.49:10 and I Sam.13:13. Gen.49:10 alone is difficult to translate.
A couple of ideas to think about:
1) In I Sam.13:13-14, Samuel says that God would established Saul's kingdom forever, but this will no longer happen because of Saul's rebellious heart. The word "forever" there is the Hebrew word, olam.
The Hebrew concept of olam is not the same as the Greek concept of forever (aion). Only in reference to God does olam actually mean "forever." Otherwise it means "age-lasting" or "a long period of time." This period of time could be three days (Jonah 2:6 says that he was in the sea creature for olam, even though 1:17 says that it was three days). Or it could be for a limetime, as was the case with Samuel (I Sam.1:11 says that Samuel would serve God "forever." cf. 1:28). This second example is likely the way that olam is being used in I Sam.13:13.
2) Perhaps God was planning on establishing the Davidic Kingdom from the beginning, but Israel jumped the gun. They wanted a king before God's appointed time of establishing the kingdom of David. At the time of I Sam.8, David (the one whom God has chosen) was too young to be king, and so Saul was annointed and he was God's man. Saul's reign was cut short, however, and instead of his complete lifetime (olam) reign, he only reigned until he became unfaithful. This is when Saul lost his messiah-ship and David then became the annointed king.
A couple of ideas to think about:
1) In I Sam.13:13-14, Samuel says that God would established Saul's kingdom forever, but this will no longer happen because of Saul's rebellious heart. The word "forever" there is the Hebrew word, olam.
The Hebrew concept of olam is not the same as the Greek concept of forever (aion). Only in reference to God does olam actually mean "forever." Otherwise it means "age-lasting" or "a long period of time." This period of time could be three days (Jonah 2:6 says that he was in the sea creature for olam, even though 1:17 says that it was three days). Or it could be for a limetime, as was the case with Samuel (I Sam.1:11 says that Samuel would serve God "forever." cf. 1:28). This second example is likely the way that olam is being used in I Sam.13:13.
2) Perhaps God was planning on establishing the Davidic Kingdom from the beginning, but Israel jumped the gun. They wanted a king before God's appointed time of establishing the kingdom of David. At the time of I Sam.8, David (the one whom God has chosen) was too young to be king, and so Saul was annointed and he was God's man. Saul's reign was cut short, however, and instead of his complete lifetime (olam) reign, he only reigned until he became unfaithful. This is when Saul lost his messiah-ship and David then became the annointed king.
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chunkofcoal
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I think we have to keep in mind that God already knows what is going to happen - so He would've known what Saul would end up doing.
Like God said to Abram "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee." Or like God said of Abraham, "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."
Or as God said of David, "And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite; for I have provided me a king among his sons."
Or think about what is written about Jesus in Hebrews 5 " For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."
Think about Isaiah 46:8-13 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else: I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand , and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: I bring near my righteousness: it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory."
That just knocks your socks off to think about!
Like God said to Abram "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee." Or like God said of Abraham, "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."
Or as God said of David, "And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite; for I have provided me a king among his sons."
Or think about what is written about Jesus in Hebrews 5 " For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."
Think about Isaiah 46:8-13 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else: I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand , and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: I bring near my righteousness: it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory."
That just knocks your socks off to think about!
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Dad Ernie
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andyggtw said:
Greetings Andyggtw,
God also knew that Adam & Eve were going to "sin", yet He made provisions for this even before they were created. God generally does not interfere with men's decisions except to allow them the right to choose. As Adam chose to listen to the Serpent, so did Saul, and so did every character in the Bible. God has always laid before us two choices, the one for life and the one for death. Saul chose the way of death and thus the sceptor departed from him.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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