1 Nephi 14 -- Any LDS Official Explanation?

[logichopper]

According to the BOM (1 Nephi 14, v 10 & 11):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And he [the angel of God] said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people."

If one is not a member of the LDS church, are they then a member of the great church of the harlot of all earth?

Conversely, can one be a member of a non LDS church and, according to LDS doctrine, still be a member of the church of the Lamb of God? If so, why is it necessary, as LDS would claim, be a member of the LDS church for the greatest level of salvation?

Are there any LDS members who participate on this board who will stand up and be accountable for this doctrine? If so, can you point to any, "Church official" explanation of the above questions other than merely personal opinion or conjecture?

Is it fair to assume that, if this issue is avoided by the LDS posters on this board, this question is one of those that is preferred to be avoided within LDS church circles?
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[A New Dawn]

According to the D&C the (first) new and everlasting covenant is baptism by one holding authority, and without which, one cannot enter into celestial glory, as per section 76.

SECTION 22
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Manchester, New York, April 1830. HC 1: 79—80. This revelation was given to the Church in consequence of some who had previously been baptized desiring to unite with the Church without rebaptism.

1, Baptism is a new and everlasting covenant; 2—4, Authoritative baptism is required.

1 BEHOLD, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning.

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old.

4 Wherefore, enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God. Amen.

 

[Ran77]

According to the BOM (1 Nephi 14, v 10 & 11):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And he [the angel of God] said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people."

If one is not a member of the LDS church, are they then a member of the great church of the harlot of all earth?

I am not convinced that this verse means: all those not baptized into Christ's Church are part of the great harlot of a church. I will be willing to do a little study on the matter, but at first response I think this has more to do with whether a person's heart is set on the things of God or of the devil.

Let me do some study on that and I will get back to you.

Conversely, can one be a member of a non LDS church and, according to LDS doctrine, still be a member of the church of the Lamb of God? If so, why is it necessary, as LDS would claim, be a member of the LDS church for the greatest level of salvation?

As above, I think that is possible. I feel there are true believers in all of the Christian churches who are following the light of Christ in their lives.

However, I also believe that it is required of all of us to accept the single path which represents God's will. And in our belief that requires the acceptance of the ordinances that God requires.

These ordinances and the covenants we make as a part of them, demonstrate our dedication to God and our willingness to follow His counsel.

Most Christians accept that baptism is a necessary step to show your status as a Christian - why then should further ordinances seem strange or out of place in the Lord's plan?


The progression of ordinances demonstrates ever increasing dedication to the Lord. Those who serve God with their entire heart will do all that is necessary and whatever is asked of him by God. So, in order to reach exhaltation a person must be willing to do all of it.

Why? Because I believe the closer to God you come, the more that will be expected of you and the more authority and power you will be given. Among other things, doing what it takes to recieve these ordinances demonstrates the level of self-control it will require to wisely use the power you are given to fufill the responsibilities that you will be entrusted.

Are there any LDS members who participate on this board who will stand up and be accountable for this doctrine? If so, can you point to any, "Church official" explanation of the above questions other than merely personal opinion or conjecture?

Which doctrine? That you must be baptized into Christ's Church in order to dwell in the Celestial kingdom? I'll tell you right now that is the case.

Is it fair to assume that, if this issue is avoided by the LDS posters on this board, this question is one of those that is preferred to be avoided within LDS church circles?

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I don't recall this being avoided. Don't confuse correcting a misrepresentation with avoidance. Just because answers do not fit what you want people to give doesn't mean they are avoiding it. (You being the figurative use for everyone - not you personally.)

 

[Swart]

According to the BOM (1 Nephi 14, v 10 & 11):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And he [the angel of God] said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people."

If one is not a member of the LDS church, are they then a member of the great church of the harlot of all earth?

Conversely, can one be a member of a non LDS church and, according to LDS doctrine, still be a member of the church of the Lamb of God? If so, why is it necessary, as LDS would claim, be a member of the LDS church for the greatest level of salvation?

Are there any LDS members who participate on this board who will stand up and be accountable for this doctrine? If so, can you point to any, "Church official" explanation of the above questions other than merely personal opinion or conjecture?

Is it fair to assume that, if this issue is avoided by the LDS posters on this board, this question is one of those that is preferred to be avoided within LDS church circles?
[/FONT]

Since everyone else likes to quote BRM I suppose I may be permitted a little latitude in this area!

“The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature -- whether political, philosophical, educational, economic social, fraternal, civic, or religious -- which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God….”

“Hence we find our Lord saying, ‘He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.’ (Matt. 12:30.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p.138)

source

 

[kdlds]

According to the BOM (1 Nephi 14, v 10 & 11):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And he [the angel of God] said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people."

If one is not a member of the LDS church, are they then a member of the great church of the harlot of all earth?

Conversely, can one be a member of a non LDS church and, according to LDS doctrine, still be a member of the church of the Lamb of God? If so, why is it necessary, as LDS would claim, be a member of the LDS church for the greatest level of salvation?

Are there any LDS members who participate on this board who will stand up and be accountable for this doctrine? If so, can you point to any, "Church official" explanation of the above questions other than merely personal opinion or conjecture?

Is it fair to assume that, if this issue is avoided by the LDS posters on this board, this question is one of those that is preferred to be avoided within LDS church circles?
[/FONT]

Though there is but one Christ, there are hosts of faithful souls who with full authority can speak in the name of Christ. Similarly, there is but one Church of Jesus Christ, yet there are hosts of congregations within that Church.
In 1 Nephi 14:10-17: we read there are two churches one being founded by the the devil and one by the the Son of God. Those who are for our not for our Lord are against him.

Matt 12:30
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

And membership in this "church" of the devil is by no means limited to one organization, or one denomination.

To the LDS the "great and abominable church" is equivalent to the " great harlot that sitteth upon many waters" described in Revelations 17:1-5

The Book of Mormon is consistent with the Bible in instructing people to flee from the church of evil and find sanctuary in the church of God.

Jer 51:6
6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this [is] the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.

Rev 18:4
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

1 Ne 20:20
20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter to the end of the earth; say ye: The Lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

D&C 133:14
14 Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon.


Furthermore the the image of the great admominable church as the harlot compliment the bilbilcal image of Ezekiel view of Bablylon and the harlot.

Nephi explained further in 2 Ne 10:16
16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the harlot of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

To me this sounds like more a statement of general principle than a denunciation of a particular church or denomination.

 

[Blackmarch]

According to the BOM (1 Nephi 14, v 10 & 11):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And he [the angel of God] said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people."

If one is not a member of the LDS church, are they then a member of the great church of the harlot of all earth?

Conversely, can one be a member of a non LDS church and, according to LDS doctrine, still be a member of the church of the Lamb of God? If so, why is it necessary, as LDS would claim, be a member of the LDS church for the greatest level of salvation?

Are there any LDS members who participate on this board who will stand up and be accountable for this doctrine? If so, can you point to any, "Church official" explanation of the above questions other than merely personal opinion or conjecture?

Is it fair to assume that, if this issue is avoided by the LDS posters on this board, this question is one of those that is preferred to be avoided within LDS church circles?
[/FONT]

Supposing only one church was true, and Had christ's authority... what are the other churches?

 

[Sherman]

According to the BOM (1 Nephi 14, v 10 & 11):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And he [the angel of God] said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people."

If one is not a member of the LDS church, are they then a member of the great church of the harlot of all earth?

Conversely, can one be a member of a non LDS church and, according to LDS doctrine, still be a member of the church of the Lamb of God? If so, why is it necessary, as LDS would claim, be a member of the LDS church for the greatest level of salvation?

Are there any LDS members who participate on this board who will stand up and be accountable for this doctrine? If so, can you point to any, "Church official" explanation of the above questions other than merely personal opinion or conjecture?

Is it fair to assume that, if this issue is avoided by the LDS posters on this board, this question is one of those that is preferred to be avoided within LDS church circles?
[/FONT]

I am not aware of any "Official Explanation" other than LDS scripture as to who falls into which side, the church of the Lamb of God or the church of the devil. I am most comfortable using LDS scripture to define "the church of the Lamb of God" and "the church of the devil".

In verse 2 of the same chapter gives the key as to who is the church of the Lamb of God. It is those that "harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God"

So in my view anyone that hardens his/her heart against the Lamb of God is of the church of the devil, both LDS and Non-LDS.

I will post more later on the rest of your questions.

 

[Sherman]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If one is not a member of the LDS church, are they then a member of the great church of the harlot of all earth?
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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Only if they have hardened their heart against the Lamb of God.

Conversely, can one be a member of a non LDS church and, according to LDS doctrine, still be a member of the church of the Lamb of God? If so, why is it necessary, as LDS would claim, be a member of the LDS church for the greatest level of salvation?

Yes, in my opinion you can be, but at some point you will need to make a choice. To accept the restored gospel of Jesus Christ or to reject it. Which at that point, if rejected, you have hardened your heart and you will then have joined the church of the devil.

Are there any LDS members who participate on this board who will stand up and be accountable for this doctrine? If so, can you point to any, "Church official" explanation of the above questions other than merely personal opinion or conjecture?

Yes , me.

May I ask you to define "Church official explanation"? Are you asking for an explanation other than 1 Nephi 14? Because I think the angel explained it quite well to Nephi. I think LDS scripture is the best source for official explanation without personal opinion or conjecture.

Is it fair to assume that, if this issue is avoided by the LDS posters on this board, this question is one of those that is preferred to be avoided within LDS church circles?

[/FONT] No, I think it is quite straight forward... either you harden your heart against the Lamb of God or you do not.

 

[buddy mack]

According to the BOM (1 Nephi 14, v 10 & 11):

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And he [the angel of God] said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the harlot of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the harlot of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people."

If one is not a member of the LDS church, are they then a member of the great church of the harlot of all earth?

Conversely, can one be a member of a non LDS church and, according to LDS doctrine, still be a member of the church of the Lamb of God? If so, why is it necessary, as LDS would claim, be a member of the LDS church for the greatest level of salvation?

Are there any LDS members who participate on this board who will stand up and be accountable for this doctrine? If so, can you point to any, "Church official" explanation of the above questions other than merely personal opinion or conjecture?

Is it fair to assume that, if this issue is avoided by the LDS posters on this board, this question is one of those that is preferred to be avoided within LDS church circles?
[/FONT]

There is never a need for explanation, only blind faith and obedience. Now just do as i tell U and everything will be allright.

 

[logichopper]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]May I ask you to define "Church official explanation"?[/FONT]

Something that the "First Presidency" of the LDS church would stand behind IN A PUBLIC STATEMENT.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Yes, in my opinion you can be, but at some point you will need to make a choice. To accept the restored gospel of Jesus Christ or to reject it. Which at that point, if rejected, you have hardened your heart and you will then have joined the church of the devil.[/FONT]

First off, this type of thinking is a very real and scary component of mormonism. It is no wonder it is becoming more and more isolated from Christianity.

Second, I know the LDS church would never stand behind this statement in public. For that matter, I doubt few of your lds brothers or sisters on this board would even support you.

I could go on endlessly in naming the great christian leaders around the world who are well versed and knowledgable in the LDS claims, have continued in their missions for God, and rejected joining or subscribing to the claims of the LDS church. I would love to see a public statement from the LDS church that the likes of Billy Graham or Pope Benedict are members of or supporting the "Church of the Devil".

I would also welcome any members of the LDS Church to support Sherman in his opinion here.

How do people come to think like this??????????????

 

[Sherman]

Something that the "First Presidency" of the LDS church would stand behind IN A PUBLIC STATEMENT.



First off, this type of thinking is a very real and scary component of mormonism. It is no wonder it is becoming more and more isolated from Christianity.

Second, I know the LDS church would never stand behind this statement in public. For that matter, I doubt few of your lds brothers or sisters on this board would even support you.

I could go on endlessly in naming the great christian leaders around the world who are well versed and knowledgable in the LDS claims, have continued in their missions for God, and rejected joining or subscribing to the claims of the LDS church. I would love to see a public statement from the LDS church that the likes of Billy Graham or Pope Benedict are members of or supporting the "Church of the Devil".

I would also welcome any members of the LDS Church to support Sherman in his opinion here.

How do people come to think like this??????????????

Since when do you know the heart of Billy Graham or Pope Benedict?

How do you know if they have heardened their heart? I did not say their hearts were hardened against the Lamb of God.

I said the only way anyone would join the church of the devil is if they hardened their heart against the Lamb of God.

Did you even read what I wrote?

 

[logichopper]

Since when do you know the heart of Billy Graham or Pope Benedict?

How do you know if they have heardened their heart? I did not say their hearts were hardened against the Lamb of God.

I said the only way anyone would join the church of the devil is if they hardened their heart against the Lamb of God.

Did you even read what I wrote?

Sherman,

I am beginning to think either: you did not read (or understand) what YOU wrote or, you are now trying to implement the famous “mormon backpeddlin”!

You specifically said if one rejects the “restored gospel” you have… joined the church of the devil”! (let me quote you again so even your lds brothers and sisters will see the facts)

Sherman:

“Yes, in my opinion you can be, but at some point you will need to make a choice. To accept the restored gospel of Jesus Christ or to reject it. Which at that point, if rejected, you have hardened your heart and you will then have joined the church of the devil.”


I have met Rev. Graham and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he does not accept the claims of the LDS Church’s “restored gospel” via the BOM.

Now, I have never met any of the Popes, but I do know that the Catholic Church will not accept a previous mormon baptism as acceptance of the word of God and require all previously baptized mormon converts to be re-baptized prior to converting and acceptance into their Church. They do, however, accept just about any other Christian Church baptism for converts into their Church. My point is that it is very safe to say that the Pope also does not accept the “restored gospel” of the mormon church as well.

Accordingly, by your definition, they both have “hardened their hearts and joined the church of the devil” according to 1 Nephi 14; 10-11.

In other words, if one rejects the “restored gospel claim” of the mormon church (ie: the BOM), one is now of “hardened heart” and a member of the “Church of the Devil”!

That is indeed “scary”!

I look forward to your response. Perhaps this time with reason and logic, and without the testimonial emotions!!!

 

[urbanlemur2005]

In Galatians 1:8, Paul says: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed". Paul was obviously referring to the still fresh in their mind message that the REAL Jesus Christ had been preaching not long before. How much clearer does it have to be?

I was a mormon for 11 years and by God's grace, finally left and came to know the true Jesus. Let me tell you that the God, Jesus and Holy Spirit that the mormon church speaks of are not the same that the Bible speaks of. There are many parallels between mormonism and Christianity but main differences are striking. There was and is no need for a "restored gospel" so that is a moot point.

The true church is the body of followers/believers in Jesus Christ, not a corporate entity consisting of people who claim to be the same. "Church of the devil"? People will apply that to whomever does not follow their particular belife system. As for me, I will continue to pray for the mormons for their hearts/minds to be openend regarding the true God, Savior and Holy Spirit. But then, that's only my opinion.

 

[buddy mack]

In Galatians 1:8, Paul says: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed". Paul was obviously referring to the still fresh in their mind message that the REAL Jesus Christ had been preaching not long before. How much clearer does it have to be?

I was a mormon for 11 years and by God's grace, finally left and came to know the true Jesus. Let me tell you that the God, Jesus and Holy Spirit that the mormon church speaks of are not the same that the Bible speaks of. There are many parallels between mormonism and Christianity but main differences are striking. There was and is no need for a "restored gospel" so that is a moot point.

The true church is the body of followers/believers in Jesus Christ, not a corporate entity consisting of people who claim to be the same. "Church of the devil"? People will apply that to whomever does not follow their particular belife system. As for me, I will continue to pray for the mormons for their hearts/minds to be openend regarding the true God, Savior and Holy Spirit. But then, that's only my opinion.

Remember the old TV game show where three people would be asked questions but only one of the persons whould be the real contestance. Well will the real Jesus please stand up.

 

[Sherman]

I have met Rev. Graham and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he does not accept the claims of the LDS Church’s “restored gospel” via the BOM.

I am glad that you are such a close personal friend to Rev. Graham and you have single handedly determined that he has hardened his heart against the Lamb of God. I say that no man can determine ones heart but God. But if you want to assume that roll, that's up to you.

Accordingly, by your definition, they both have “hardened their hearts and joined the church of the devil” according to 1 Nephi 14; 10-11.

You would first need to demonstrate that they (Rev. Graham and the Pope) have had the oppertunity to hear the restored gospel, and then reject it.

 

[skylark1]

I have met Rev. Graham and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he does not accept the claims of the LDS Church’s “restored gospel” via the BOM.

I am glad that you are such a close personal friend to Rev. Graham and you have single handedly determined that he has hardened his heart against the Lamb of God. I say that no man can determine ones heart but God. But if you want to assume that roll, that's up to you.

Hi Sherman,

I don't believe that Logichopper said or implied that Rev. Graham has hardened his heart against the Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

Do you believe that the LDS gospel, rather than Christ, is the Lamb of God?

John 1:26
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
​

 

[Sherman]

Hi Sherman,

I don't believe that Logichopper said or implied that Rev. Graham has hardened his heart against the Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

Hello Skylark,

I have not said it either. I said If he has not hardened his heart against the Lamb of God then according to 1 Nephi 14 he is part of the church of the Lamb of God.

Only God knows ones heart and who has rejected Him and has hardened their heart. I do not personally know Rev. Graham and what witness he has had or what he has rejected if anything or the state of his heart.

Do you believe that the LDS gospel, rather than Christ, is the Lamb of God?

John 1:26
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!









​

No, Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, and it is His gospel.

 

[logichopper]

I have not said it either. I said If he has not hardened his heart against the Lamb of God then according to 1 Nephi 14 he is part of the church of the Lamb of God.

Only God knows ones heart and who has rejected Him and has hardened their heart. I do not personally know Rev. Graham and what witness he has had or what he has rejected if anything or the state of his heart.

What Sherman has said, and now appears ready to deny, was that if one rejects the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, one has "hardened his heart and has joined the church of the devil".

The restored gospel, according to mormons, is the Book of Mormon. Accordingly, if one rejects the BOM, one has a hardened heart and is now joined the church of the devil.

Billy Graham and the Catholic Church ( ie the Pope) reject the BOM. By Sherman's claim, they are, by his definition, members of the church of the devil.

Sherman may want to try and back peddal at this point, but his written record is contained in this thread.

If you'll notice, and as I predicted, none of the other lds posters want to support him on this one!!!

 

[Bananna]

First off, this type of thinking is a very real and scary component of mormonism. It is no wonder it is becoming more and more isolated from Christianity.

The irony of this statement is that to some degree all sects believe this and all think they have the right "way".

And the Jews think we are all heretics and following a false profet and worshipping many gods.

I think when any of us speak in terms of final judgement, it should be in a humble manner recognizing that but for the grace of God every one of us will miss the proverbial Ark of the covenant and drown in our stupidity. It does not matter how right we think we are... ONLY Yehoshuah can judge a mans heart and intent.

Bananna

 

[randypamjohnson]

What Sherman has said, and now appears ready to deny, was that if one rejects the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, one has "hardened his heart and has joined the church of the devil".

The restored gospel, according to mormons, is the Book of Mormon. Accordingly, if one rejects the BOM, one has a hardened heart and is now joined the church of the devil.

Billy Graham and the Catholic Church ( ie the Pope) reject the BOM. By Sherman's claim, they are, by his definition, members of the church of the devil.

Sherman may want to try and back peddal at this point, but his written record is contained in this thread.

If you'll notice, and as I predicted, none of the other lds posters want to support him on this one!!!

I have a question for you....lets say you have a co-worker who you have gotten close to....and the two of you begin to talk about things that really matter...ie: family/religion.

Lets also say...that down the line you share with him your beliefs and witness to him that you believe these things (gospel) to be true.

Lets also say...that after a "fair christian hearing" he decides...uh....thanks, but no thanks. According to your belief system...at that moment in time is he consigned to endless torment in hell because he has rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Share with me...at what point along ones journey in life can the determination that a "fair and legitimate" opportunity has been afforded them?

Going back to my original scenario....I ask you...would YOU consider that a "fair and legitimate" opportunity for him? If he were to die the next day...do you believe that the one witness you gave him was enough to convict him to endless hellfire and brimstone?