• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

1 John 5:8 -- Forgery?

Status
Not open for further replies.
O

Odsolo

Guest
mdvaden said:
Those sound like good credentials.

Interesting...Jesus Christ and his disciples were probably asked similar questions by people at the PhD level, about credentials.

Tough choice to choose sometimes.

And your point is? Do you know why I made the statement and asked the question? If not please tell me and I will explain it to you.

OBTW I ain't Jesus, one of his disciples, or a scribe or pharisee, neither was the person I was addressing. I don't think your analogy is in the least relevant. Kinda like the comparison a bit earlier between a native Greek speaker and a brand new college grad with a Strong's.
 
Upvote 0

justified

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2005
1,048
25
41
✟23,831.00
Faith
Protestant
Here the Greek translator has overstepped his own abilities.
There is no error in the original autographs.
This has no evidence. I am just as willing to say that it was the author of Matthew, writing in Greek, who didn't realise what was going on. I have little doubt that he was not an eyewitness to the event. When he wrote the gospel, he used the confessional understanding of the First Testament that he recognized, but at times mis interpreted it.

Isn't it also fascinating that the first corrector of Sinaiticus omits the επι πωλον in the fourth line of the quotation from Zecheriah, but not the repitition from verse seven? Isn't it also fascinating how explicitly the LXX of Zech. 9.9 reads:

και σωζων αυτος πραυς και επιβεβηκως επι υποζυγιον και πωλον νεον.

It doesn't sound so Hebrew any longer.

You don't need a 'Q' source, only a fool of a Took trying to render Hebrew into Pidgeon Greek.
These kinds of statements are scary.

An obvious complete failure to recognize the standard form of Hebrew poetry, repetition with synonymous construction. And please don't tell me there were two animals, instead of one ass translating, unfamiliar with the correct version of the story correctly translated in Luke. You don't need a 'Q' source, only a fool of a Took trying to render Hebrew into Pidgeon Greek.
So now to the meat and potatos. You have provided here a fun opportunity for redaction criticism:

bold = verbal parallels Mark/Matthew
Underline = verbal parallels Mark/Luke
<> = verbal parallels Luke/Matthew
italics = significant nonverbal parallels
NB: where there was simple reversal of word order I still considered it a verbal parallel.

_Mark 11:1-3_
&#945;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#955;&#955;&#949;&#953; &#948;&#965;&#959; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#956;&#945;&#952;&#951;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#955;&#949;&#947;&#949;&#953; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#965;&#960;&#945;&#947;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#954;&#969;&#956;&#951;&#957; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#957;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#953; &#965;&#956;&#969;&#957;, &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#965;&#952;&#965;&#962; &#949;&#953;&#962;&#960;&#959;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#953; &#949;&#953;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#951;&#957; &#949;&#965;&#961;&#951;&#963;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#960;&#969;&#955;&#959;&#957; &#948;&#949;&#948;&#949;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#957; &#949;&#966;' &#959;&#957; &#959;&#965;&#948;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#959;&#965;&#960;&#969; &#945;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#969;&#960;&#959;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#954;&#945;&#952;&#953;&#963;&#949;&#957; &#955;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#964;&#949; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#966;&#949;&#961;&#949;&#964;&#949;. &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#945;&#957; &#964;&#953;&#962; &#965;&#956;&#953;&#957; &#949;&#953;&#960;&#951; &#964;&#953; &#960;&#959;&#953;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#964;&#959; &#949;&#953;&#960;&#945;&#964;&#949; &#959; &#954;&#965;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; &#967;&#961;&#949;&#953;&#945;&#957; &#949;&#967;&#949;&#953;, &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#965;&#952;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#957; &#945;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#955;&#955;&#949;&#953; &#960;&#945;&#955;&#953;&#957; &#969;&#948;&#949;

_Luke 19:29-31_
<&#945;&#960;&#949;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#957;> &#948;&#965;&#959; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#956;&#945;&#952;&#951;&#964;&#969;&#957; <&#955;&#949;&#947;&#969;&#957;> &#965;&#960;&#945;&#947;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#957;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#953; &#954;&#969;&#956;&#951;&#957;, &#949;&#957; &#951; &#949;&#953;&#963;&#960;&#959;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#959;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#953; &#949;&#965;&#961;&#951;&#963;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#960;&#969;&#955;&#959;&#957; &#948;&#949;&#948;&#949;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#957;, &#949;&#966;' &#959;&#957; &#959;&#965;&#948;&#949;&#953;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#960;&#959;&#964;&#949; &#945;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#969;&#960;&#969;&#957; &#949;&#954;&#945;&#952;&#953;&#963;&#949;&#957;, &#954;&#945;&#953; <&#955;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;> &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#957; &#945;&#947;&#945;&#947;&#949;&#964;&#949;. &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#945;&#957; &#964;&#953;&#962; &#965;&#956;&#945;&#962; &#949;&#961;&#969;&#964;&#945; &#948;&#953;&#945; &#964;&#953; &#955;&#965;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#959;&#965;&#964;&#969;&#962; &#949;&#961;&#949;&#953;&#964;&#949; &#959;&#964;&#953; &#959; &#954;&#965;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; &#967;&#961;&#949;&#953;&#945;&#957; &#949;&#967;&#949;&#953;.

_Matthew 21:1-3_
&#921;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#965;&#962; <&#945;&#960;&#949;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#957;> &#948;&#965;&#959; &#956;&#945;&#952;&#951;&#964;&#945;&#962; <&#955;&#949;&#947;&#969;&#957;> &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#949; &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#954;&#969;&#956;&#951;&#957; &#964;&#951;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#949;&#957;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#953; &#965;&#956;&#969;&#957;, &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#965;&#952;&#949;&#969;&#962; &#949;&#965;&#961;&#951;&#963;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#959;&#957;&#959;&#957; &#948;&#949;&#948;&#949;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#951;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#960;&#969;&#955;&#959;&#957; &#956;&#949;&#964;' &#945;&#965;&#964;&#951;&#962; <&#955;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;> &#945;&#947;&#945;&#947;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#956;&#959;&#953;. &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#945;&#957; &#964;&#953;&#962; &#965;&#956;&#953;&#957; &#949;&#953;&#960;&#951; &#964;&#953;, &#949;&#961;&#949;&#953;&#964;&#949; &#959;&#964;&#953; &#959; &#954;&#965;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#969;&#957; &#935;&#961;&#949;&#953;&#945;&#957; &#949;&#967;&#949;&#953;. &#949;&#965;&#952;&#965;&#962; &#948;&#949; &#945;&#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#955;&#949;&#953; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965;&#962;.


Notes:
It has long since been recognized that a significant feature of Markan style is the rather ugly usage of the adverb &#949;&#965;&#952;&#949;&#969;&#962;. It hardly needs to be said that its use in some 40 different verses in that gospel is not to be considered good Greek style. It is used in almost part of the parable of the seeds of chapter four. In contrast, Matthew uses the term in only 15 verses (and his gospel is significantly longer, too). Of those, a number are stories which show marked parallels with a Markan version: Mt. 4.22/Mark 1.20; Mt. 13.5/Mark 4.5; Mt. 4.22/Mark 6:45; Matthew 14.27/Mark 6.50; Matt. 20:34/Mark 10:52 (despite the classic numerical discrepency, it's obviously the same story); Mt. 26.49/Mark 14.45. These six account for over 1/3 of the uses of &#949;&#965;&#952;&#949;&#969;&#962; in Matthew, and in a number of circumstances it is employed in an obviously-Markan idiom. Add to that the fact that Mark and Matthew share the clause of returning the animal(s) and you have a very interesting case.

This is especially so when you notice that Luke omits both instances of &#949;&#965;&#952;&#949;&#969;&#962; and the clause about returning the animals. Luke is almost entirely the same as Mark except for these changes and a couple of grammatical cleanups: &#945;&#960;&#949;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#957; and &#955;&#965;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#949;&#962;, both of which used by Matthew as well. Another difference which makes the whole thing flow better in Greek is the phrase &#948;&#953;&#945; &#964;&#953; &#955;&#965;&#949;&#964;&#949; rather than the colloquial &#964;&#953; &#960;&#959;&#953;&#949;&#964;&#949; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#964;&#959;. Matthew's is simplified into, "if anyone questions you."

What I am suggesting in all of this is that you have a strong reason for seeing an independent use of Mark by both Matthew and Luke. It is less likely (though not impossible) that Matthew was the impetus of Mark. However, it makes the timing difficult because Mark would have to have been completed and dispersed so that Luke could use it; it also goes against common sense as the reason for the &#949;&#965;&#952;&#949;&#969;&#962;, since this is a Markan feature; and also because it would be odd for Mark to denigrate the grammar of Matthew.

These brief notes also have a bearing on the Hebrew-original theory. The parallels here are in Greek, not in Hebrew. You suggest that the translator of Matthew was poor, but in fact he renders many phrases in fine Greek. It is difficult to imagine him making a 'mistake' like you've mentioned. Rather, it is more likely that it's not a mistake at all, but a reading of the LXX-tradition plus a Matthean fettish for pairs in everything.

explain, please.
Oh come on. There's plenty of material from the first and second century which is fully in line with modern orthodoxy and which might happily be included in our bibles. Why not just add a book or two? Heck, why not add something entirely pseudepigraphal? If there's no problem with someone inserting it into a document though not written by the writer of that document, so long as it agrees with your own theology, then why would an entire b ook be any different.
 
Upvote 0

Nazaroo

Joseph is still alive! (Gen 45.26)
Dec 5, 2005
2,626
68
clinging to Jesus sandalstrap
✟25,730.00
Faith
Christian
So now to the meat and potatos. You have provided here a fun opportunity for redaction criticism:
Finally a spur that gets you onto the problem.
Excellent introduction to the problem. I am actually mildly surprised by this one.

What I am suggesting in all of this is that you have a strong reason for seeing an independent use of Mark by both Matthew and Luke. It is less likely (though not impossible) that Matthew was the impetus of Mark. However, it makes the timing difficult ...
Meat and potatoes indeed.
I will accept Markan priority for the sake of analysis.
But the second idea is a non-sequitor and the most implausible hypothesis in the entire affair: The idea that any of the following gospel composers operated without previous knowledge of and familiarity with the contents of their predecessors, and did not directly use them. For instance, why pose a 'Q' when we have a Mark and a Matthew available to Luke, who confesses using them?

These brief notes also have a bearing on the Hebrew-original theory. The parallels here are in Greek, not in Hebrew. You suggest that the translator of Matthew was poor, but in fact he renders many phrases in fine Greek. It is difficult to imagine him making a 'mistake' like you've mentioned. Rather, it is more likely that it's not a mistake at all, but a reading of the LXX-tradition plus a Matthean fettish for pairs in everything.

(1) Actually, since we have to account for the facts, it is both plausible and highly likely that Matthew's 'good' Greek instances come from three sources:

a) He's copying from a Greek translation in many parts, of which at least one was available, namely Mark or proto-Mark, and probably notes from many others. It is a late cooperative church production after all. In other words, it is highly doubtful that if he is translating from Hebrew that there is no previous partial work to draw from. We are looking at the last, final accepted draft.

b) There is more than one hand operating to compile and produce Matthew. At the very least he is consulting others and making notes incorporating the suggestions of others. He doesn't have to magically absorb all those clever renderings or skills instantly from start to finish in the production of the piece. This should be a no-brainer. You don't write a gospel to be adopted by the mainstream majority of Christians in a vacuum.

c) He has to get lucky at least part of the time. As to what he would know or could know about grammar, syntax, and translational Greek, we can't dictate. We simply have to observe what he demonstrates he may know, and carefully observe also what he demonstrates he doesn't know.

d) The textual variants are interfering with the analysis. There is no point in blindly following the text of WH/Nestle-Aland/UBS and then making deductions about Matthew's translational Greek skills, when this has not been taken into account in the reconstruction of the text.

But thanks for the effort and the helpful deliniation of the problem.

Isn't it also fascinating that the first corrector of Sinaiticus omits the &#949;&#960;&#953; &#960;&#969;&#955;&#959;&#957; in the fourth line of the quotation from Zecheriah, but not the repitition from verse seven? Isn't it also fascinating how explicitly the LXX of Zech. 9.9 reads:

&#954;&#945;&#953; &#963;&#969;&#950;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#962; &#960;&#961;&#945;&#965;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#960;&#953;&#946;&#949;&#946;&#951;&#954;&#969;&#962; &#949;&#960;&#953; &#965;&#960;&#959;&#950;&#965;&#947;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#960;&#969;&#955;&#959;&#957; &#957;&#949;&#959;&#957;.
Isn't it also fascinating that every printed text of the LXX is getting its readings from a late 4th/5th century A.D. manuscript, namely Vaticanus, except for one or two books, where another similar manuscript is consulted, Alexandrinus?

Isn't it also fascinating that these 4th century rich man's bibles make an excellent substitute when toilet paper is scarce? mmmmm. Vellium feels nice, not harsh like papyrus from Egypt.
 
Upvote 0

mdvaden

Active Member
Dec 3, 2005
203
9
66
✟22,878.00
Faith
Oneness
Marital Status
Married
nd your point is? Do you know why I made the statement and asked the question? If not please tell me and I will explain it to you.

The point is that credentials are good, but the word also shows that any person who is speaking the truth without credentials can be right.

I only mentioned passages with Jesus / disciples - but the Word shows other people equipped with truth, elsewhere. I did not refer to those passages because they had Jesus in it, but because it shows the Word.

So the point is two points. I think my post was clearly two points if anyone searches out the verses I referred to.
 
Upvote 0

Nazaroo

Joseph is still alive! (Gen 45.26)
Dec 5, 2005
2,626
68
clinging to Jesus sandalstrap
✟25,730.00
Faith
Christian
The point is that credentials are good, but the word also shows that any person who is speaking the truth without credentials can be right.
I like your point here. Credentials don't speak to integrity, and that is an additional but essential element in real credibility.
 
Upvote 0

oldsage

Veteran
Nov 4, 2005
1,307
70
56
Pinellas Park, FL
✟1,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
justified said:
Oh come on. There's plenty of material from the first and second century which is fully in line with modern orthodoxy and which might happily be included in our bibles. Why not just add a book or two? Heck, why not add something entirely pseudepigraphal? If there's no problem with someone inserting it into a document though not written by the writer of that document, so long as it agrees with your own theology, then why would an entire b ook be any different.


I don't think you read what I typed, I said I have no problem with the teaching, just like I wouldn't have problems with many of the early creeds of the church, I never said they should be included in the bible.

Chris
 
Upvote 0

mdvaden

Active Member
Dec 3, 2005
203
9
66
✟22,878.00
Faith
Oneness
Marital Status
Married
Hi - somebody on the first page said that 1 John 5:7 doesnt add any new doctrine. I believe this. Just quickly though, can anybody give me a reference for where it says (besides in 1 John 5:7) that the father, son and holy spirit are all one?
What becomes interesting too, is if we can access sections of scripture that were added; shown by texts available, what additions were made that we don't know about.

If you want a good topic to include, check out this verse:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me

In the Aramaic texts, this verse reads "my God, my God, for this purpose was I spared.

Roughly "Eloi, Eloi, lmana shabactani"

Also, the Aramaic in no way includes "THAT IS TO SAY".

That verse and the exclusion of "that is to say" one of the indicators that the Greek texts came from the Aramaic.

Also, the Greek text copies were a very sloppy translation - in fact, so sloppy, they did not translate it -they invented a meaning. The Greek text left the Aramaic words in the verse, which obviously are in no way Greek.

It is Aramaic, and "straightened out a bit" is phonetically reasonable. But those Aramaic words are as far away from "why hast thou forsaken me" as Chinese is from Portugese or Eskimo.

The words in the Aramaic text mean "my God, my God, FOR THIS PURPOSE WAS I SPARED - or reserved"

The word for spared (or reserved) is used in the Old Testament where the prophet thought he was the only one left:

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

The Aramaic in 1 Kings 19:18 for "left me" is the word that means "spared" or "reserved". In Kings there, we can see that there were seven thousand in reserve.

The Aramaic text uses the same word in Matthew 27:46.
 
Upvote 0
P

PeterAV

Guest
Dmckay said:
It has been documented that when Erasmus was working to complete his Greek text he was approached by representatives of the church and asked to include 1 John 5:7 to strengthen the position on the doctirne of the Trinity. His initial response was that the verse was not in any of the Greek manuscripts in his possession. They insisted that it be included despite this. He responded that if they could provide him with a Greek manuscript that included the verse, then he would do so.

It is reported that they returned shortly with a new fragment that had the portion of 1 John 5 and that it included verse seven. Despite the fact that it was obvious to Erasmas that they ink wasn't even dry, he conceded to their "request" and included the verse. The only texts that include this passage are manuscripts which are dated ater Erasmas' work.
*******
Of course,we all now know that this story has since been completely reputiated,by one of the big names out there.Everyone keeps telling the story though.

Let's face it,this is not a legit statement to make anymore by itself.It needs to be shown to be complete error.
And so it is.

PeterAV
 
Upvote 0

Jim1

Regular Member
Jan 13, 2002
263
6
Visit site
✟528.00
Faith
Christian
Hello,


John:

(from the WH Greek text) 1 John 5:5 And who is the one overcoming the world, if not the one believing that Jesus is the Son of God. 6 This One is the One having come through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by the water only but by the water and by the blood. 7 And the Spirit is that which bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth. 8 Because three are the ones bearing witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are for the one thing. 9 If we accept the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, because this is the witness of God, that He has born witness regarding His Son.


Jim:

This makes much more sense to me than the TR Greek text does, which includes the Comma: “... in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit—and these three are one thing—and three are the ones bearing witness on earth ....” The purpose of the witness is so that people on earth will believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and so that, believing, they will overcome the world. Therefore, what need would there be for such a witness in heaven, as indicated in the Comma? Is there someone up there who needs to be persuaded that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, so that he can be saved and overcome the world? Also, the witness is explicitly defined as God’s witness regarding His Son, which seems to me to be incompatible with the Son’s witness regarding Himself in the Comma. Further, the target of God’s witness regarding His Son is identified as the referent of “we” (5:9), who are on earth, not in heaven.

The comparison that is implied by the use of the masculine gender in 1 John 5:8 is explicitly stated in verse 5:9, John comparatively (this is like that) equating “the Spirit and the water and the blood” in verse 5:8, to which he refers as “the witness of God” in verse 5:9, to “the ones who bear witness” in verse 5:8, to whom he refers as “the witness of men” in verse 5:9, hence the masculine gender in verse 5:8. Question (implicit): Who are the three witnesses, who are prescribed by Moses to establish the truth of a matter in Deuteronomy 17:6 and 19:15, who bear witness to the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God? Answer (explicit): “The ones who bear witness” (masculine gender in reference to the three witnesses prescribed by Moses) are (comparatively) “the Spirit and the water and the blood.” This seems to me to be the most likely meaning of verses 5:8-9. This comparison makes perfect sense to me in the absence of the Comma. In contrast, when the Comma is present, we end up with not three witnesses but six witnesses (or five, depended on how one looks at it) comprising the witness of God in a comparative equation to the witness of men (three witnesses) prescribed by Moses, which results in an unbalanced comparison, unless we divide the witness of God into two witnesses of God, one witness of God (three witnesses) in heaven and one witness of God (three witnesses) on earth. But verse 5:9 speaks of only one witness of God, not two, which suggests only three witnesses, not six.

As for the use of the article in the phrase “the one thing” in verse 5:8, this makes sense to me as a kataphoric reference to “the witness of God” in verse 5:9: “... and the three (the Spirit and the water and the blood) are for the one thing (the witness of God that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God).”

Therefore, I don’t think that the Comma belongs in the text, because it simply doesn’t fit the surrounding text, whereas the surrounding text makes perfect sense in the absence of the Comma.


Jim
 
Upvote 0

gbear

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,066
55
state of WA
✟23,992.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I'm sure glad that it has no impact on my or other's salvation or how we live our lives for Jesus Christ. I know you guys are having fun for the sake of argument, but practical application is most helpful to me in a forum like this. An interesting tidbit... but does not affect my faith in the least. And I'll tell you why...because God doesn't need anything on the earth to agree with Him. In fact, He doesn't need anything on the earth or any of the people on the earth... there is nothing here that He needs to sustain Him at all in any way...He is self sufficient... we are not... that is why we need HIM>
 
Upvote 0

gbear

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2006
1,066
55
state of WA
✟23,992.00
Faith
Non-Denom
gbear said:
I'm sure glad that it has no impact on my or other's salvation or how we live our lives for Jesus Christ. I know you guys are having fun for the sake of argument, but practical application is most helpful to me in a forum like this. An interesting tidbit... but does not affect my faith in the least. And I'll tell you why...because God doesn't need anything on the earth to agree with Him. In fact, He doesn't need anything on the earth or any of the people on the earth... there is nothing here that He needs to sustain Him at all in any way...He is self sufficient... we are not... that is why we need HIM... so to that I say... WOW! What GRACE!
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.