1 John 5:16

[SumTinWong]

Using the Literal Translation of the Bible:

1 John 5:16-18 "If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask; and He shall give life to him, to the ones not sinning unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that he should ask about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that everyone being generated from God does not sin, but the one having been generated from God keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him."

And the Analytical-Literal Translation of the Bible:
1 John 5:16-18 "If anyone sees his brother [fig., fellow believer] sinning a sin not [leading] to death, he will ask, and He will give to him life, to the ones sinning [a sin] not [leading] to death. [There] is sin [leading] to death; not concerning that [sin] am I saying that he should urgently ask. 17 Every unrighteousness is sin, and [there] is sin not [leading] to death. 18 We know that every one having been begotten from God is not sinning, _but_ the one having been begotten from God keeps himself, and the evil [one] does not touch him."

I have read various commentaries on these verses but I would like to hear from you on what you think of their meaning.

We have been taught that the wages of sin is death. But here it clearly says that there is a sin that does not lead to death. What could that sin possibly be? John says there is a sin unto death, and we are suggested not to ask about that. But we know that all sin leads to death, so was there a sin that led to instant death?

What have you been taught, or what do you say is your understanding about these verses?

 

[Harry the Heretic]

Hi,

That's a hard one. In hard NT sayings I always try to look into the OT for a "shadow" or example.

Are there some instances of people sinning unto death (supernatural death), two that come to mind are in Numbers. The "gainsaying" of Kora,who threatened Moses, and insisted upon being a priest. The other is when the people accused the Lord of leading them to death, and the lord sent firey serpents. Both could be viewed as blasphemy, though they are slightly different in nature. One takes the form of satans rebellion, the other takes the form of satan accusing God.

This coupled with the Lying to the Holy Spirit by Ananias and Sapphira says that blaspheming or tempting God is the sin unto death, or more specifically, as Christ said, blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Atributing Evil to God, in my opinion

 

[daveleau]

I have recently heard two different pastors talk about this verse as a reference.

1) Used it in a sermon on the Ministry of Chastizement
Basically, Hebrews 12 talks about how God deals with His Children when they sin. The pastor talked about here used 1 Jn 5:16 as a final move by God. First, He tells us that we are sinning, then He chastizes us, then he chastens us, then He scourges us, then He takes us home early (kind of like taking a child home from a kid's birthday party when they misbehave). Everything up until the last step is talked about in Hebrews 12. I agree with all that the preacher said except for this last part, which I am skeptical of. But, do your own study to see if this fits.

2) Used as a cross-reference regarding the unpardonable sin in a class I am taking in seminary
The professor mentioned this verse and two others from Hebrews as instances regarding the unpardonable sin, which is the willful, persistent hardening of your heart to the works of the Holy Spirit and attributing them to Satan rather than to God. I think the context and the verses fit better together here.

 

[SumTinWong]

1 Jn 5:16 as a final move by God. First, He tells us that we are sinning, then He chastizes us, then he chastens us, then He scourges us, then He takes us home early (kind of like taking a child home from a kid's birthday party when they misbehave). Everything up until the last step is talked about in Hebrews 12.

I heard something along these lines with Paul. He said that someones body had been handed over to Satan so that his soul would be saved. I forget the exact scripture.

2) Used as a cross-reference regarding the unpardonable sin in a class I am taking in seminary
The professor mentioned this verse and two others from Hebrews as instances regarding the unpardonable sin, which is the willful, persistent hardening of your heart to the works of the Holy Spirit and attributing them to Satan rather than to God. I think the context and the verses fit better together here.

That makes sense to me. So basically if the Holy Spirit is telling us something, and we say that it is from satan, or the miracles performed like Jesus did, and attributing them to satan?

 

[SumTinWong]

Hi,

That's a hard one. In hard NT sayings I always try to look into the OT for a "shadow" or example.

Are there some instances of people sinning unto death (supernatural death), two that come to mind are in Numbers. The "gainsaying" of Kora,who threatened Moses, and insisted upon being a priest. The other is when the people accused the Lord of leading them to death, and the lord sent firey serpents. Both could be viewed as blasphemy, though they are slightly different in nature. One takes the form of satans rebellion, the other takes the form of satan accusing God.

This coupled with the Lying to the Holy Spirit by Ananias and Sapphira says that blaspheming or tempting God is the sin unto death, or more specifically, as Christ said, blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Atributing Evil to God, in my opinion

Thanks for the response Harry.
So basically we can look at these verses and formulate that, like Dave said, when we harden our hearts, and blaspheme God, that would be sins unto death?

 

[daveleau]

Yes that is one possibility.

In regards to the Ministry of Chastisement, the sin unto death in this one is not a handing of the soul over to the devil, but God taking the person up to ehaven early and taking away the treasure they had built up. It is not a very good stance, I do not think, though. I think the connection with the unpardonable sin makes much more sense.

 

[Harry the Heretic]

Lollard,

Yes, I believe this to be the case. Here is one of the verses in Hebrews Dave was mentioning;

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Keep in mind, that in this case, for the "unpardonable" sin to take place, one would have to have been a believer in God. Some say that it is impossible for a non believer to commit this sin, but I would disagree based on the scriptures both OT and NT saying, "today if you would hear his voice, harden not your hearts...". In these instances it is speaking of rebelion to God.

 

[SumTinWong]

Keep in mind, that in this case, for the "unpardonable" sin to take place, one would have to have been a believer in God. Some say that it is impossible for a non believer to commit this sin, but I would disagree based on the scriptures both OT and NT saying, "today if you would hear his voice, harden not your hearts...". In these instances it is speaking of rebelion to God.

The demons believe in God and they by now I am sure know who Jesus is, and they are lost, so maybe that is a good point.

So do you think it is possible for someone who has been born of the new seed of God to then be unborn of it?

 

[Harry the Heretic]

The demons believe in God and they by now I am sure know who Jesus is, and they are lost, so maybe that is a good point.

So do you think it is possible for someone who has been born of the new seed of God to then be unborn of it?

Yes I do. Even though we do not earn our salvation, I do not believe the grace of God covers rebellion without repentance.

 

[seangoh]

Back to the original question. From a commentary.

Since John does not define one particular sin as resulting inevitably in death, it is probable that he is here referring to a type of sin that will certainly produce death. If he had known of one specific sin that would leave a man without hope of salvation, he might have been expected to identify it, so that all might beware of falling into irrevocable condemnation. While it is true that all sin, if persisted in, will lead to death (Eze. 18:4, 24; James 1:15), there is a difference in the degree to which any particular act of sin will bring a man near to death. The sins committed by those who are genuinely anxious to serve God, but who suffer from a weak will and strong habits, are very different from those sins that are deliberately committed in brazen and willful defiance of God. It is more the attitude and the motive that determine the difference, than the act of sin itself. In this sense, there are distinctions in sins. The minor error, quickly repented of and forgiven, is a sin not unto death. The grievous sin, fallen into suddenly through failure to maintain spiritual power, is still not a sin unto death, if followed by genuine repentance; but refusal to repent makes ultimate death certain. The distinction is clearly illustrated in the experiences of Saul and David. The first sinned, and did not repent; the second grievously sinned, but earnestly repented. Saul died, without hope of enjoying eternal life; David was forgiven and assured a place in God’s kingdom.

I do not say. John does not command us to pray, neither does he say that we should not, but he hesitates to guarantee answers to prayer for those who have deliberately turned away from God. There is a difference between prayer for ourselves and prayer in behalf of others. When our own will is on the side of God, we can ask in accordance with His will and know that we shall receive an answer to our prayers. But when there is a third person concerned, we must remember that he, too, has a will. If he refuses to repent, all our prayers and all the work that God might do and might lead us to do, will not force the will. In refusing to force man to remain good, God also relinquished the power to force a sinner to repent.
This does not mean that we should not continue to pray for those who have drifted from the way of righteousness, or who have never surrendered to the Saviour. It does not mean that there will not be many remarkable conversions as a sequel to long and earnest praying by faithful hearts. But John is showing that there is no use praying for forgiveness for a sinner so long as he refuses to repent of his sin. Yet, while there are any grounds for hope, we should continue to pray, for we cannot tell with certainly when a man has gone too far.

 

[SumTinWong]

Yes I do. Even though we do not earn our salvation, I do not believe the grace of God covers rebellion without repentance.

Yeah but can we actually be born of the new seed without repentance?

 

[SumTinWong]

Back to the original question. From a commentary.

Thanks again for the info!

 

[christian-only]

Seeing as how Paul says the wages of sin is death, we know that all sin produces spiritual death. When John then says there is a sin not unto death he is referring to physical death. His point: If a man commits a sin that doesn't result in his physical death, pray about it. If, however, his sin physically kills him, it's too late to pray about it since he is dead.

 

[SumTinWong]

Seeing as how Paul says the wages of sin is death, we know that all sin produces spiritual death. When John then says there is a sin not unto death he is referring to phsyical death. His point: If a man commits a sin that doesn't result in his physical death, pray about it. If, however, his sin physically kills him, it's too late to pray about it since he is dead.

Gee. Could it be that obvious. Great googly moogly. That makes quite a bit of sense to me. Man...Thanks!

 

[Harry the Heretic]

Seeing as how Paul says the wages of sin is death, we know that all sin produces spiritual death. When John then says there is a sin not unto death he is referring to physical death. His point: If a man commits a sin that doesn't result in his physical death, pray about it. If, however, his sin physically kills him, it's too late to pray about it since he is dead.

So it means suicide? had not considered that before, or am I missing any other sin unto death in this sense?

 

[Harry the Heretic]

Yeah but can we actually be born of the new seed without repentance?

True enough, but is it possible to rebell after repentance? Or the other possiblility is after hearing the word with the longsuffering of God, we rebel instead of repent. Maybe the second is what is meant by "tasting" in Heb, but it's the "falling away " part in the next verse that makes me pause. I'm still undecided on this.

 

[SumTinWong]

True enough, but is it possible to rebell after repentance? Or the other possiblility is after hearing the word with the longsuffering of God, we rebel instead of repent. Maybe the second is what is meant by "tasting" in Heb, but it's the "falling away " part in the next verse that makes me pause. I'm still undecided on this.

Well as you know in reality repentance means a turning away from one thing to another or a change of mind, so if one is in repentance, how long would they have to be in repentance for the sin to be forgiven?

To me it seems as if it would have to be a continual process. The act of, rather than the result of. The reason say this is many people are dragged to and fro from demons of one kind or another. At one point they may put down or turn away from this act, but in the next second they are knee deep in it. To me repentance is the continual, minute by minute, saying no to sin. Do I do it, no, not all the time, but I am growing like everyone else.

So yeah I think it is possible to rebel after repentance, but the question would be were we really repentant then if we rebel at a later time?

I am undecided as well.