• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

1 John 2.2

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by JM, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. JM

    JM pre·des·ti·nar·i·an Supporter

    (Keep in mind folks this is the Baptist forum. )

    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Without acknowledging it or perhaps not even realizing it some Baptists are traditionalists. They accept doctrines they are taught without being good Bereans and studying scripture to see for themselves if what they are being "feed" is true. They uphold the traditions they have inherited. This passage is a good example of traditionalism.

    The word "world" can be understood in different ways. (I recommend A. W. Pink's study of the Greek word kosmos.) To understand how a word is being used we must look at the context in which it is being used, what comes before and what comes after that word should define how we understand that word. For a quick example have a look at Luke 2.1 were we read, "a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." We would not assume, in this context, that Caesar decreed to tax the Chinese or the Natives of North America for that would be a foolish interpretation of the passage. We read the passage and rightly conclude that Caesar's decree to tax the world meant the known world or the Roman world and not every single person who ever lived.

    In 1 John 2.2 we see the word "world" being used again. In this same verse we find the word propitiation. To understanding the meaning of word "world" in this verse we need to look at what goes before it and what comes after it and when we do we find the word propitiation. Propitiation means, "The act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person..." We can conclude this verse to mean that Christ's death result in the removal of God's wrath.

    The Universalist claims this passage means that Christ died for every single person who ever lived and God's wrath is removed from everyone. Everyone gets to heaven with or without belief since God died for every single person who ever lived. We know universalism is false for Christ had much to teach on the subject of hell.

    Others believe that Christ died for every single person who ever lived but that God's wrath is not removed until the sinner generates saving faith in that propitiation. Of course this cannot be found in the passage and should not be considered a good interpretation of it.

    What does the quoted passage actually teach? It's very simple when considering the context...just like we did with the passage from Luke. If hell is real, and it is, and if God's wrath has been removed from the people for whom Christ died then Christ could not have died for every single person who ever lived. The passage is teaching us that Christ died for us (a reference to the Jews) and for world (non Jews). It's really that simple. "And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." John 11:51-52

    When any of us approach the Bible we come with presuppositions, things we presuppose to be true, traditions that are not scriptural and filter the scriptures through these beliefs.

    As Baptists we should know better and I pray you will continue to be good Bereans and search the scriptures.

    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

    John 10

    The Good Shepherd and His Sheep

    1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.
    7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

    11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

    14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
  3. Nemnar

    Nemnar Newbie

    Im not sure I understand your point.
  4. His_disciple3

    His_disciple3 Newbie

    Jm, you not only dance around with a lot of cluttered words, but you completely ignored or ommitted the key word in this verse " WHOLE" world. I have sat under baptist preachers heard all kinds of preachers on the tv and radio and all my life I have heard that if a preacher says that the Word of God don't mean what the word of God says, then we are to discredit this preacher, for truely this is the way that cults get started and false teachings, but it is very clear that not only in 1 JOhn 2:2 calvinist has to change the meaning of words, but in many many others verses, calvinist has to say that scripture don't mean what scriptures says or even twist what that meaning is as you are very much trying to do with 1 John 2:2. Now I am not trying to convert you. but will stand against any false teachings with scriptures to protect others, God's mercy endureth forever. Here is a set of verses that tells us That God would have gathered, (His will was to protect Israel) but they would Not Let Him. So it would be the will of the Father that all come to the knowledge of Christ but again you would have to say that "ALL" don't mean "ALL" :

    Matthew 23:37-39
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    note in verse 39 that God didn't say one day I will force you to be blessed, but will wait until the day when you shall say( He left it up to man) !

    Christ being lifted up will draw all men unto Him, again you would have to say that "ALL" don't Mean "ALL" or down size who "ALL are. Christ was compared in scriptures as the serpent being lifted up, and when all that got snake bit when they would turn to face the serpent then they would not die, there was a way to escape death; God would remove the wrath of the snake bite, who would that apply to? "ALL" that would get Bite, but would "ALL" do as God had said? if they wanted to live they would, did God say; I am going to lift this serpent up and it will work for some but not all that look upon the serpent will be helped?? no no a thousand times no, All that Call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved, but will all trust the Lord ? there is a difference to call him Lord or to call upon the Lord! take the parable of the great supper at least three were called to the Supper and they flat out refused, the did Bible say that the Lord forced them to be chosen guest, no He sent out more invitiations and what happen to the 3 that were called and refused:

    Luke 14:23-24
    23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
    24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

    instead of all the verses that you reference 1 John 2:2 together with to get it to say what you want it to say, let's back 1 John 2:2 with this verse to get the true meaning of 1 John 2:2

    2 Peter 3:9
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Now I know this will not convert you, for "Any" should perish can't mean what it means and "ALL" can't mean what it says either, but again maybe I can stop someone else from making the works of Christ on the Cross vain for them!
  5. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    I posted this in another thread, I'm gonna post it again here because its worth re-posting.

    Bob Burridge wrote:

    The Meaning of Propitiation

    John Gill also comments:

    John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

    Couldn't say it better myself.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012