“Would you kill someone for a flat panel HDTV at half price?”

[Michie]

“Would you kill someone for a flat panel HDTV at half price?”

Posted on December 8, 2008 by Jim Lackey

That was the lede sentence in a commentary in Our Sunday Visitor by Greg Erlandson. Headlined “Advent on the Precipice,” Erlandson recalls the “Black Friday” death of a Wal-Mart employee trampled by onrushing bargain-hunters and notes the importance of getting beyond the consumerist mentality of the season — especially at a time when the economy is in a freefall — and focusing on what’s at stake for us this month spiritually.

Also writing on the same theme was Bishop Arthur J. Serratelli of Paterson, N.J., in his diocesan newspaper, The Beacon. The headline on his column: “Advent: Black Friday Turned Inside Out.”

http://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2008/12/08/would-you-kill-someone-for-a-flat-panel-hdtv-at-half-price/

 

[drpepper101]

How big, who made it, and is it LCD or plasma?

 

[Avatar]

I would not kill for luxuries.

I would kill for basics. Survival necessities. Not for me, for my family.

That would be an interesting thread, 'would you kill for a loaf of bread to feed your starving children?'

I would.

I'd go to Hell, they wouldn't.

 

[drpepper101]

By eating the bread they'd be cooperating in your sin and could well be in mortal sin themselves for doing it. After all, it'd be "blood bread." If you're going to kill someone for something material at least the TV could be resold and buy a lot of bread.
The entire essence of Christianity is that the kingdom of God is more valuable than anything on earth. As such it boils down to better for you and your children to starve and be saved than to eat bread you obtained by murder and be damned for it. Jesus is quite straight forward on the subject of not much caring about the family, after all anyone that doesn't put him first is not worthy of him.

 

[benedictaoo]

Ah, those TV's were not half price.. they were not that great of a deal. The 32" was on sale, it was only 60$ off the regular price and it wasn't 1080 pi. So... ppl were "killing" for something if they bothered to research, they could have known it wasn't even that good a deal.

and no, i would not do that and no one person did this, it was a done by lack of crowd control and a whole crowd of ppl pushing on the door.

Yes greed is a vice, one of the 7 deadly's, yes these ppl should examine their conscious but Walmart did have a part in this becuase this particular walmart had a previous incident before and they should have prepared for this better.

But I'm not exactly understanding the argument. Should we not have sales? Is shopping a sale seen as a sin now?

 

[faerieevaH]

It's easy to just blame Walmart. It is equally easy to say that this was just a greedy bunch of hooligans.
It's a combination of both though. Yes, Walmart 'should have had additional crowd control'. But why? If people just stood in line and waited nicely, without pushing forward or trying to 'slip through the crowds', no one would have been injured. It's easy to say that it's the fault of big corporations by creating a false need and a false sense of urgency by creating a deliberate temporarys scarceness. But a scarceness of what? No one ever died out of a lack of bargain prized electronics. The idea that there were 'only enough for the first 100 people' (or however much there were) should have induced people who wanted to have one to get up and get in line early, and if they arrived and saw about 500 people already in line to just... sigh and grumble at themselves for not being there earlier. It should NOT have induced them to push forward, slamming doors out of their hinges. Think about it... when waiting at a red light, we do not just start driving when the light is green, we also wait until the car in front of us is driving. We might give an impatient honk, but we do not try to push him off the road if he does not start moving as soon as the light is green. After all, he has to wait for the car in front of him.
THere is nothing wrong with shopping the sales. I rarely buy anything full price if I can help it, but I scout out stores in advance to see what I want, and then when the sale starts, I go there and wait my turn, patiently or impatiently, but I do not push nor do I try to 'work my way forward by manoeuvering through a crowd'.
It's not greedy to shop the sales, it is however greedy to push, manoeuver or do whatever you can to get to the desired bargain first.
I am certain that few of the pushers and pullers would deliberately kill to get to that tv, but their lack of responsible behaviour is the cause of someones death. There probably are a whole host of innocent, responsible shoppers in that crowd. But this incident was not brought about by one person, but by a mob mentality of 'push and shove to get what you want'.

 

[Tonks]

1080 pi.

1080x3.14?


Highest resolution ever?

 

[AMDG]

If people just stood in line and waited nicely, without pushing forward or trying to 'slip through the crowds', no one would have been injured.

Ah, that statement says that you don't know that area. That area was getting very bad when I left New York some thirty + years ago. I can't imagine what it's like now. But Walmart does. And Walmart should have taken precautions and not "fanned" the flames. (IMO it was like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater to not have crowd control and extra security with the mob building and building hours before the doors were flung open and the crowd was allowed to surge through.) You know the police were called and left before the doors even opened. Walmart had to know.

 

[benedictaoo]

if they knew they had x amount of the sought after item, then they should have handed out tickets before hand and told eveyone else to not line up.

 

[faerieevaH]

The fact that I know a neighbourhood is bad does not revoke my right to walk across the street there safely.
The fact that people in this neighbourhood do not have self control STILL is not Walmarts fault. I am certain they could have handled it better, I do not dispute that. What I dispute is that this is their fault. It is the sole fault of the people who pushed and pulled not because they feared for their life, but because they feared they were going to be left out of a bargain. Their lack of manners, of self control and the fact that their greed made them act irresponsible is their own fault.
Otherwise we could find a thousand excuses for everyone. "He killed someone" Well, it's not his fault, he came from a bad neighbourhood where people around him were killed often. "He pushed his way through a crowd instead of behaving like a civilized being? Well, it's not his fault... evil Walmart had pushed him into a frenzy by advertising that there were only 200 tv's and he really had to have one!

Yelling fire in a crowded theater causes a semi legitimated panic reaction because people fear for their lives. If Walmart had put the sound of a machine gun on their parking and then people pushed through these doors desperate to escape the hidden gun man, it would be a good comparison. The worst thing that Walmart cry in a crowded theater was; "NO TV FOR YOU".
I know how the mob mentality works. It does not however diminish culpability of the people in the mob. It is an explenation after the fact, but not an excuse.

I have taught in an inner city highschool. My students respected me because I expected them to behave. Sure they slipped up, and they were dealt with. The fact that I understood that they did not grow up with manners did not diminish the fact that by the age of 14 they knew what manners were and that they were expected from them in the classroom.
No matter how bad the neighbourhood, people know how they are SUPPOSED to behave. Whether they are accustomed to doing that or not is not an excuse.

 

[faerieevaH]

if they knew they had x amount of the sought after item, then they should have handed out tickets before hand and told eveyone else to not line up.

If people had 'just lined up', they would have discovered inside the store that they were too late for the TV. They would be dissapointed. As adults we are expected to live with dissapointment now and again. It is part of becoming a responsible member of society. There should not be a NEED for these tickets.
It might have avoided this incident, true. But that does not make it the responsability of Walmart that this happened. The responsability rests with those who did not 'line up' and peacefully (or grumbling) accepted the fact that they were too late.

In London there is a half price theater ticket booth. Theater tickets for musicals come available cheap at midday. Some musicals are very popular. I've seen people stand in line three days in a row, to be dissapointed by the fact that each time they are almost halfway through the line, the light for that particular musical goes off. Sold out. They grumble, they groan, or they just sigh and walk away.
While I recognise that people waiting in line for musical tickets in London probably do have a different upbringing than people pushing through the doors at Walmart, it still does not excuse the pushers and pullers.
It would be the same to say that it is the polices fault when someone is killed during a riot because they should have forseen that this or that jury verdict or this or that government summit would have caused those riots.
The police may have mishandled a situation, but those at fault STILL are the ones that have caused the riot and killed the victim. NOT the police.

 

[benedictaoo]

walmart is also wrong for enticing the ppl they know would act in a certain way. If they knew they only had so many and KNEW thousands would be fighting, then they had the responsibility to handling the situation.

lets not make this out to be Americans are just rotten ppl becuase you had a bad shopping experience.

 

[Mom2Alex]

I wouldn't mind if my old television evaporated today and was never replaced. The only thing I would fight for is the safety of my family. Anything else - parking place, place in line, last item on the shelf - I just step aside.

 

[benedictaoo]

The fact that I know a neighbourhood is bad does not revoke my right to walk across the street there safely.
The fact that people in this neighbourhood do not have self control STILL is not Walmarts fault. I am certain they could have handled it better, I do not dispute that. What I dispute is that this is their fault. It is the sole fault of the people who pushed and pulled not because they feared for their life, but because they feared they were going to be left out of a bargain. Their lack of manners, of self control and the fact that their greed made them act irresponsible is their own fault.
Otherwise we could find a thousand excuses for everyone. "He killed someone" Well, it's not his fault, he came from a bad neighbourhood where people around him were killed often. "He pushed his way through a crowd instead of behaving like a civilized being? Well, it's not his fault... evil Walmart had pushed him into a frenzy by advertising that there were only 200 tv's and he really had to have one!

Yelling fire in a crowded theater causes a semi legitimated panic reaction because people fear for their lives. If Walmart had put the sound of a machine gun on their parking and then people pushed through these doors desperate to escape the hidden gun man, it would be a good comparison. The worst thing that Walmart cry in a crowded theater was; "NO TV FOR YOU".
I know how the mob mentality works. It does not however diminish culpability of the people in the mob. It is an explenation after the fact, but not an excuse.

I have taught in an inner city highschool. My students respected me because I expected them to behave. Sure they slipped up, and they were dealt with. The fact that I understood that they did not grow up with manners did not diminish the fact that by the age of 14 they knew what manners were and that they were expected from them in the classroom.
No matter how bad the neighbourhood, people know how they are SUPPOSED to behave. Whether they are accustomed to doing that or not is not an excuse.

and here is something you probably do not know about. Walmart does hand out tickets on some hard to get things. 2 years ago when the Wii first came out, ppl lined up at midnight and they were handed tickets, first come first serve and no one fought and killed each other.

This is just a bad thing that happened. It is not indicative of anything specific. After Thanksgiving Day sales is a tradition here and this year, it got out of hand. Yes ppl were more hyped up as usual and if we are going to play the blame game... let's throw the media under the bus for their "sky is falling" reporting that created this hysteria where ppl think they have to buy this stuff cheap becuase tomorrow everyone is going to lose their jobs.

We can also blame the democrats while we are at it becuase it's they who is telling us to go out ad shop like there is no tomorrow.

and lets not forget the man who was trampled, God rest him, he was pushing right along with the crowd that killed him.

 

[colleen]

I think Eva's point is that first and foremost this is about people's attitude/manners. I personally love shopping the early morning black friday sales. But, I also have watched someone grab the last item of something that was on my list when I was super close to it. I never felt the urge to push forward/grab for it. An item has never seemed that important to me. Once in a while Black Friday sales were the only way my mom could afford a christmas gift for us, but she never fought for a gift. If she thought there was a chance they wouldn't be able to get/afford a gift we wanted she would tell us Santa might not be able to get us that toy and we gave her a back-up.

I think the point is that this would have never happened if people didn't view a tv as more important than treating others with respect. The pushing, shoving, and grabbing isn't any more Christ like than trampling someone. One has a more troubling result, but both are terrible behaviors. It's a good case of how a venial sin can lead to weakening our conscience and ultimately to committing a mortal sin.

Now, Walmart has responsibilities as a business. They should have lines, tickets, etc. But, ultimately everyone is responsible for their own actions. Frankily, since Walmart has issues every year I'm not sure why anyone shops there in the morning of black friday (or ever for that matter).

 

[benedictaoo]

1080x3.14?


Highest resolution ever?

They are making them now in 1200 & 1400 pixels. the joke is, the service broadcasting them is not even up to that yet and ppl have no idea how to even get the HD picture. You either need to buy the service or you need to buy a special HD antenna with HDMI cables and all of that is just more money.

Half the ppl out there just saw big tv on sale and really had no clue if they were wroth the trouble or not. It certainly wasn't worth dying over.

But if you ever saw Blue Ray, that's to die for maybe. That's an awesome picture.

The only way I can rationalize ppl fighting for that particular deal (not killing but standing out there like a fool) is the fact that in Feb everything is going digital and these new tvs all have the digital tuners built in.

and after a few years, like everything else, these plasma tvs are going to go down in price and eventually they will be affordable to everyone until the next new thing comes out.

 

[benedictaoo]

I think Eva's point is that first and foremost this is about people's attitude/manners. I personally love shopping the early morning black friday sales. But, I also have watched someone grab the last item of something that was on my list when I was super close to it. I never felt the urge to push forward/grab for it. An item has never seemed that important to me. Once in a while Black Friday sales were the only way my mom could afford a christmas gift for us, but she never fought for a gift. If she thought there was a chance they wouldn't be able to get/afford a gift we wanted she would tell us Santa might not be able to get us that toy and we gave her a back-up.

I think the point is that this would have never happened if people didn't view a tv as more important than treating others with respect. The pushing, shoving, and grabbing isn't any more Christ like than trampling someone. One has a more troubling result, but both are terrible behaviors. It's a good case of how a venial sin can lead to weakening our conscience and ultimately to committing a mortal sin.

Now, Walmart has responsibilities as a business. They should have lines, tickets, etc. But, ultimately everyone is responsible for their own actions. Frankily, since Walmart has issues every year I'm not sure why anyone shops there in the morning of black friday (or ever for that matter).

Oh I got her point and I do not disagree with it. I just think she is a little jaded and is jumping on that, "greedy Americans" band wagon.

I shop black Friday and have for years. I don't hurt or push anyone and there is a difference in having a robust crowd that is out of their mind waiting in the cold wee hours in the morning and a crowd who is obviously out of control.

The crowd i have seen over the years are usually laughing at themselves as they are running in line trying to beat everyone else... becuase we all know we are a bunch of fools to do this.

But this particular walmart had a incident already before. they should have anticipated the crowd and I do believ all the hysteria in the news over how bad things are going to get and then the mixed message of spend like you have it even if you don't has something t do with the crowd being so frantic.

 

[benedictaoo]

I would not kill for luxuries.

I would kill for basics. Survival necessities. Not for me, for my family.

That would be an interesting thread, 'would you kill for a loaf of bread to feed your starving children?'

I would.

I'd go to Hell, they wouldn't.

we have already seen what that looks like. that is what was happening in the days after Katrina. Ppl were killing, literally killing ppl over the ice and water that was finally brought in. and looting was happening all over. Some looted for necessities, others for drugs and booze and others for luxury items.

 

[faerieevaH]

walmart is also wrong for enticing the ppl they know would act in a certain way. If they knew they only had so many and KNEW thousands would be fighting, then they had the responsibility to handling the situation.

lets not make this out to be Americans are just rotten ppl becuase you had a bad shopping experience.

That was uncalled for. This has nothing to do with me having a bad shopping experience and I have in no way implied that 'Americans are rotten people.' I do not even see where you could have extrapolated that.

My claim is, and stands, that the people pushing and shoving their way into a store are the ones responsible for the trampling of the Walmart employee, NOT Walmart. I agree, and have agreed from the beginning, that Walmart could have handled it better. But people REMAIN responsible for their own behaviour. They were not drugged, they were not shot at, they were not under an impression of a threat of life and limb. And they still behaved in a way that was, at the very least, irresponsible.

 

[faerieevaH]

Oh I got her point and I do not disagree with it. I just think she is a little jaded and is jumping on that, "greedy Americans" band wagon.

I shop black Friday and have for years. I don't hurt or push anyone and there is a difference in having a robust crowd that is out of their mind waiting in the cold wee hours in the morning and a crowd who is obviously out of control.

The crowd i have seen over the years are usually laughing at themselves as they are running in line trying to beat everyone else... becuase we all know we are a bunch of fools to do this.

But this particular walmart had a incident already before. they should have anticipated the crowd and I do believ all the hysteria in the news over how bad things are going to get and then the mixed message of spend like you have it even if you don't has something t do with the crowd being so frantic.

Jaded? I think if we compare you would rather call me an idealist, because I actually believe that people CAN control themselves and are not mindless victims that have just been exposed to too much commercials.
(BTW, I DO think there are way too many commercials.)
I have in no way implied that all Americans are greedy, but the ones that are prepared to push and shove their way through a crowd for a bargain are. Their wish to own something comes before their feeling for a fellow human being.

I completely believe you when you say that you are not that way, and I believe you equally when you say that many people out shopping there are also not that way. But could you not possibly agree with me on the notion that, aside from the people who are NOT greedy and that are behaving in a responsible way, being just out there happily shopping for a bargain, there ARE also people that are willing to do irresponsible things to get those bargains and that they are fully responsible for their own actions, no matter how many commercials they have seen or how many tv's there are in store?