“The most powerful abortifacient in America is poverty.”

[Elvisman]

I think there are some people on this board who really do not understand just what poverty is.

And there are others who are willing to make any excuse for the abomination of abortion - no matter how lame.

 

[The Professor]

And there are others who are willing to make any excuse for the abomination of abortion - no matter how lame.

What are you so angry about ?

 

[FearlessFreep]

I grew up poor, and poverty didn't abort me.

 

[Elvisman]

What are you so angry about ?

I'm not angry - just fed up with the silly excuses for killing innocent babies.

Why are you making excuses for it?

 

[The Professor]

I'm not angry - just fed up with the silly excuses for killing innocent babies.

Why are you making excuses for it?

Why are you so angry with me ?

All I did was point out that thinking poverty synonymous with being poor is a false analogy

 

[Elvisman]

Why are you so angry with me ?

All I did was point out that thinking poverty synonymous with being poor is a false analogy

I'm not angry with you. I just can't figure out why you're trying to make excuses for abortion.

As for poverty being not being synonymous and being poor - you're simply wrong here.
Webster's Dictionary defines poverty as:
the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor.

Which part of that definition is a "false analogy" in your eyes?

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

I'm not angry with you. I just can't figure out why you're trying to make excuses for abortion.

As for poverty being not being synonymous and being poor - you're simply wrong here.
Webster's Dictionary defines poverty as:
the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor.

Which part of that definition is a "false analogy" in your eyes?

No one is trying to make excuses for abortion, they are just considering ways to reduce the number of abortions. Is that not a valuable thing to do?

It's similar to a debate in the vegan community...are things that reduce the amount of animal products people eat (like promoting Meatless Monday) worth doing or should all effort go to eliminating meat consumption entirely, even if that goal is near impossible given the current state of the world?

Should we try to reduce the number of abortions only, work on making abortion illegal only, or can we do some percentage of both?

 

[Elvisman]

No one is trying to make excuses for abortion, they are just considering ways to reduce the number of abortions. Is that not a valuable thing to do?

It's similar to a debate in the vegan community...are things that reduce the amount of animal products people eat (like promoting Meatless Monday) worth doing or should all effort go to eliminating meat consumption entirely, even if that goal is near impossible given the current state of the world?

Should we try to reduce the number of abortions only, work on making abortion illegal only, or can we do some percentage of both?

The vegan analogy doesn't work because eating meat is not an intrinsic evil the way abortion is.

Abortion will exist as long as the mindset exists that the death of a baby is just collateral damage in the war of convenience. These children are nothing more than an inconvenience.

Don't forget - there is the other side of the coin for entitlement-minded would-be mothers who have several babies because the government gives them more money and more food stamps.

Why aren't these impoverished mothers aborting their babies?
Don't tell me that poverty has anything to do with it. It's an excuse.

 

[The Professor]

I'm not angry with you. I just can't figure out why you're trying to make excuses for abortion.

As for poverty being not being synonymous and being poor - you're simply wrong here.
Webster's Dictionary defines poverty as:
the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor.

Which part of that definition is a "false analogy" in your eyes?

Webster's dictionary ?

Webster's Dictionary defines abortion as

Abortion is the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo prior to viability.

But that hardly does justice to the activity does it ?

Same with poverty.

And

Not to dispute you but I really do think you're angry about something and me.

and I just don't know why

 

[WarriorAngel]

Sanger created PPF. I guess she is the grandmother of abortion in the modern world. Not that abortion is new - but it is legal.
Women are being lied to. They are being led to slaughter - their own babies. Being told it is a blob - and not a baby.

The whole - sonogram before they do such a thing is a great idea. Seeing is believing.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Poverty stricken is the group - aside from minorities - that Sanger 'went after' to coerce such choices.
She was quite a warped person who seemingly envied very much - since she herself was born poor - she felt the poor shouldnt have children.

But to be clear - poverty isnt the reason for abortions...its the excuse.

 

[Fantine]

I know a number of people who have grown up in families with 13 children (or close). They all grew up on farms. They are all in their 80's or 90's--one's even 100.

Large families were practical in the country, even during the Great Depression. They could grow what they ate and keep a chicken or two and a cow. And when the mother died in childbirth, as happened more frequently than I like to think about, the older girls could raise the kids.

If they didn't the kids usually went to an orphanage. Who could take on 13 kids?

I don't think you're 90, Elvisman, because you seem to know too much about computers. But the only people I know who've shared your experience are 90.

I'm over 60, raised in metropolitan NY, and I knew lots of families of 8...none over that, that I can remember. I remember my mother shaking her head in dismay, "Oh, my, _______ has just had another baby. Her varicose veins are so terrible. Whatever will she do?" looking as if her husband was a depraved monster.

Some of my best friends came from big, big families. As an adult, one of them said to me, "I always wondered why Santa brought more toys to your house than mine...." None of them had big families, and neither did their siblings.

Nor did the 90 year olds I know, and nor did their siblings.

Did you or any of your siblings have large families? (I look at 4 or more as large--I had 3).

Some of them had very happy memories. It was a different era.

And I don't call people in metropollitan areas who don't have thirteen children "selfish."

There are many factors that go into parenthood, and the people best equipped to make those decisions are the parents themselves.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

From America Magazine Schneck hits a nerve on Abortion

This is such a patronizing cop out. The superior white Bwana needs to teach the inferior poor white and black folk that it is really poverty that is at the root of their problems.

I watched one of those judge shows today and the youngish girl was being mouthy with the judge, so the judge lectured on her for blaming everyone and everything else for her having four children out of wedlock.


The bottom line is, for all of us. We can blame all our problems on everything under the sun, but we will all be held responsible for what we have sown.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I grew up in the city with 8 kids, knew families with 13 kids, my dad grew up from a family of [would have been 13] except the twins died and he would not be near 90.

In fact Generation X'ers are from bigger families which were 80's kids. So i dont think the stereotype works, Fantine.

 

[MKJ]

I know a number of people who have grown up in families with 13 children (or close). They all grew up on farms. They are all in their 80's or 90's--one's even 100.

Large families were practical in the country, even during the Great Depression. They could grow what they ate and keep a chicken or two and a cow. And when the mother died in childbirth, as happened more frequently than I like to think about, the older girls could raise the kids.

This is interesting because it points to something very fundamental in most people's economic reality. If you have the ability to own some land or capital that allows you to actually care for your family, it is quite possible to make do in a variety of situations. At the present time though, that is almost impossible - who can afford to buy land suitable for even subsistence farming if they are poor? Many don't even rent a place with a yard.

Talking about poverty an an important component with abortion isn't about trying to cop out of anything - it isn't really about trying to assign blame at all. It is just about what steps, what situations, lead people to take one type of action or another.

Most women who have abortions don't do it because they hate babies. Frederica Matthews-Green has written a book which involved interviewing many women who had abortions. The overwhelming conclusion she draws is that they felt trapped in some way - be it by parents or the father of the baby telling them that having the baby was not a rational choice they would help support, or by circumstances of poverty or something else, and most of them were under extreme stress and very upset. This is not a picture of people going out callously to be evil. Even if people do have choices, it is not helpful if they don't realize it, or all the choices seem really bad.

Going around patting yourself on the back saying "well, those women who are too scared to have a baby despite poverty or no access to medical care are evil, not like me" is not going to stop one abortion.

 

[WarriorAngel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation#cite_note-Owram1997a-11



Lest we forget the Baby Boomers.


http://www.reliableplant.com/Read/2431/boomers-generations


Baby Boomers represent the largest of the three groups, accounting for approximately 40 percent of the workforce population. Baby Boomers were born between 1946 and 1964 by post-WWII parents who gave birth at a “booming” pace. This is the group at the heart of the impending labor shortage that will start in 2008, the first year that the Baby Boomers hit the average retirement age in the United States of 62½.

 

[WarriorAngel]

And when they [Baby Boomers] go - and retire - the abortions will have made it rather difficult to keep up to task with their SS.
OR so economists predicted back 10 years ago.
Oh yah - fun fun had by all.

It's gonna be a bust.
Babies are not being produced at the rate necessary.

Contraception and abortions have made the future grim.

 

[Fantine]

I grew up in the city with 8 kids, knew families with 13 kids, my dad grew up from a family of [would have been 13] except the twins died and he would not be near 90.

In fact Generation X'ers are from bigger families which were 80's kids. So i dont think the stereotype works, Fantine.

But what you call "bigger" is nowhere near 13.

And a lot of them are Brady Bunch families--three kids each and they're all together for two days every other week.

So the kids get counted twice--once each in every blended family they're in.

I did not say that families of 13 are non-existent....but they do start making reality shows about them when they find them.

 

[holyorders]

This is interesting because it points to something very fundamental in most people's economic reality. If you have the ability to own some land or capital that allows you to actually care for your family, it is quite possible to make do in a variety of situations. At the present time though, that is almost impossible - who can afford to buy land suitable for even subsistence farming if they are poor? Many don't even rent a place with a yard.

Talking about poverty an an important component with abortion isn't about trying to cop out of anything - it isn't really about trying to assign blame at all. It is just about what steps, what situations, lead people to take one type of action or another.

Most women who have abortions don't do it because they hate babies. Frederica Matthews-Green has written a book which involved interviewing many women who had abortions. The overwhelming conclusion she draws is that they felt trapped in some way - be it by parents or the father of the baby telling them that having the baby was not a rational choice they would help support, or by circumstances of poverty or something else, and most of them were under extreme stress and very upset. This is not a picture of people going out callously to be evil. Even if people do have choices, it is not helpful if they don't realize it, or all the choices seem really bad.

Going around patting yourself on the back saying "well, those women who are too scared to have a baby despite poverty or no access to medical care are evil, not like me" is not going to stop one abortion.

So they hate the responsibilty of raising children instead of the children themselves. Riiiight (sarcasm).

Even if we had double or even triple the amount of children in fostercare/orphanages it would be kinder than what amounts to slitting their throats.

 

[WarriorAngel]

But what you call "bigger" is nowhere near 13.

And a lot of them are Brady Bunch families--three kids each and they're all together for two days every other week.

So the kids get counted twice--once each in every blended family they're in.

I did not say that families of 13 are non-existent....but they do start making reality shows about them when they find them.

In my parents generation - Baby Boomers - your generation actually - tons of babies were born. [I assume you are not 90 - my parents werent 90] As i said , it was not unheard of to have a large family. The only reason why my mom quit - she couldnt have any more. Her uterus busted.

But I came later - obviously - and i knew families with kids from 8 - 14 who all went to the Catholic school with me. I guess i wasnt too involved with the secular world when i grew up - since large families were the norm in my part of the world [a city].

Perhaps it was NY who have the PPF capital that had the mode to cut back....so like mindedness followed.
88.5 million Generation X's isnt shabby - it sure beats todays low paced birth rate. Almost 1/3 of the US population. The 40% in Baby Boomers out numbers that of course - and todays abortion/contracepting populace are in for heart ache.