‘For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do,’ Rom 8:3.

[jerusalem]

What could God do that the law could not do? The law could not make man righteous. It condemns man because of sin. What did God do through Jesus Christ? He made man righteous through Jesus Christ and so condemned sin – made sin powerless. How did Jesus accomplish this? He achieved this by living a perfect life before God in the flesh - without any sin – and thus became the perfect atonement of righteousness for all who look to Him in faith. The Hebrew word for ‘atonement’ actually means ‘covering’ – and all who are saved are covered by His life. This He gave and fulfilled even unto death. Forgiveness of past sins alone can never deal with the human condition. We require justification to stand righteous before God. Our Lord’s righteousness is accepted for us. He is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. As such, the Holy Spirit regenerates us as the children of God to follow the law of the Spirit in Christ our Saviour.

 

[nobdysfool]

So, do you agree that the Imputation of Righteousness is scriptural?

 

[billwald]

There is nothing in the Mosiac Covenant to indicate it was more than a social contract for Nation Israel, nothing about theoretical righteousness or one's status in the next life. The blessings and curses were temporal.

 

[billwald]

Say I made a rule for my household that the children should have birds for pets and that the birds should be house-broken. Whose fault is it that the rule can't be accomplished?

 

[jerusalem]

‘If God can impute righteousness to us, then why not sin to Christ?’ This is a rhetorical question, but one I have been asked before.

It is all about consent. Sin cannot be imputed to Jesus because He never yielded to evil. He yielded His will to the Father. To be attributed sin, one must consent to sin. Those who give their consent to evil without repentance will be condemned – together with the god they serve. By consenting to follow Christ in faith, God, in His grace and mercy, judges us righteous in His Son.

 

[Defcon]

‘It is all about consent. Sin cannot be imputed to Jesus because He never yielded to evil.

2 Cor. 5:21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Hmmmm, this seems to contradict "sin cannot be imputed to Jesus".....

 

[nobdysfool]

‘If God can impute righteousness to us, then why not sin to Christ?’ This is a rhetorical question, but one I have been asked before.

It is all about consent. Sin cannot be imputed to Jesus because He never yielded to evil. He yielded His will to the Father. To be attributed sin, one must consent to sin. Those who give their consent to evil without repentance will be condemned – together with the god they serve. By consenting to follow Christ in faith, God, in His grace and mercy, judges us righteous in His Son.

You obviously do not have a grasp of the concepts. The OT sacrifices were a type of Christ. The lamb was slain to provide the blood to satisfy the penalty, and the scapegoat carried the sins away, "outside the camp".

Your problem is compounded by your insistence on judging God's word through your own supposed sense of morality and what "seems" right. Hence, you arrive at unscriptural conclusions. I believe you need to spend some more time in study, and less time inside your own head. Sorry to be so blunt, but the Doctrine of the Atonement is central to Soteriology, and if you don't have that right, none of your other theology has much to stand on.

 

[nobdysfool]

2 Cor. 5:21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Hmmmm, this seems to contradict "sin cannot be imputed to Jesus".....

Hmmmm....I'd say that's a major faux pas.....

 

[AlbertaBoy]

What could God do that the law could not do? The law could not make man righteous. It condemns man because of sin. What did God do through Jesus Christ? He made man righteous through Jesus Christ and so condemned sin – made sin powerless. How did Jesus accomplish this? He achieved this by living a perfect life before God in the flesh - without any sin – and thus became the perfect atonement of righteousness for all who look to Him in faith. The Hebrew word for ‘atonement’ actually means ‘covering’ – and all who are saved are covered by His life. This He gave and fulfilled even unto death. Forgiveness of past sins alone can never deal with the human condition. We require justification to stand righteous before God. Our Lord’s righteousness is accepted for us. He is THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. As such, the Holy Spirit regenerates us as the children of God to follow the law of the Spirit in Christ our Saviour.

Here is a quote of the text you refer to:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It says that the law was only "weak" through the flesh.

I was wondering how you see this phrase?

It seems to be here that Jesus walked after the Spirit, when He was sent here "in the likeness of sinful flesh." If the law is only weak through the flesh; then when Jesus walked in the spirit; was the law still "weak?"

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[heymikey80]

There is nothing in the Mosiac Covenant to indicate it was more than a social contract for Nation Israel, nothing about theoretical righteousness or one's status in the next life. The blessings and curses were temporal.

Is Psalm 119 relevant to this discussion?

 

[jerusalem]

Here is a quote of the text you refer to:


It says that the law was only "weak" through the flesh.

I was wondering how you see this phrase?

It seems to be here that Jesus walked after the Spirit, when He was sent here "in the likeness of sinful flesh." If the law is only weak through the flesh; then when Jesus walked in the spirit; was the law still "weak?"

'It says that the law was only "weak" through the flesh.'

'I was wondering how you see this phrase?'

The law, though good, was powerless to render mankind righteous. 'All have sinned' - except Jesus, whom you rightly say lived out the law of God in the Spirit. Now, if we are Christ's, we follow the law of the Spirit written in the heart. We serve God in a new covenant relationship as Christians, not according to the old letter of the law. Even so, our righteousness is the imputed righteousness of Christ, covering all who truly believe.

One charactestic of this relationship is 'brotherly love' (sadly lacking in the tone of some of the posts in this forum!).

Blessings!

 

[AlbertaBoy]

Is Psalm 119 relevant to this discussion?

Hi! Psalms 119 is a long passage! Did you have a particular part of it that you were thinking of?

 

[heymikey80]

Hi! Psalms 119 is a long passage! Did you have a particular part of it that you were thinking of?

Psalm 119 tends not to restrict the Law to a tribe-covenant or a nation-covenant -- and yes, it's long. It tends to say how good the Law is so emphatically. I'm unsure how to restrict each and every one of its dozens of points to just the nation of Israel.

 

[AlbertaBoy]

Psalm 119 tends not to restrict the Law to a tribe-covenant or a nation-covenant -- and yes, it's long. It tends to say how good the Law is so emphatically. I'm unsure how to restrict each and every one of its dozens of points to just the nation of Israel.

I would agree for sure re restricting this Psalms to only one nation or race of people.

The evidence for that is "textual" meaning it is within the text itself.

"Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path..." actually does not exclude anyone anywhere anytime.

 

[nobdysfool]

The law, though good, was powerless to render mankind righteous. 'All have sinned' - except Jesus, whom you rightly say lived out the law of God in the Spirit. Now, if we are Christ's, we follow the law of the Spirit written in the heart. We serve God in a new covenant relationship as Christians, not according to the old letter of the law. Even so, our righteousness is the imputed righteousness of Christ, covering all who truly believe.

Essentially true. What you have failed to adequately account for is the means by which that was made possible.

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!

For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (Gal 2:16-21)

Please note that this supports what I have been saying. Paul says "I through the Law died to the Law, so that I might live to God". How did he do that? By being crucified with Christ. How does that happen? When we believe, we are joined to Christ, so that God counts what happened to Him as having happened to us (death, burial, resurrection), and it is on that basis that the Righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

We are literally delivered from the penalty for sin and debt of sin we had, and the debt and penalty was borne by Christ in our stead, so God through our union with Christ counts the debt as paid, the penalty satisfied, and we are raised from death into life in Christ, free the the debt of sin, and beyond the penalty of death for sin, because the penalty is already paid for us in Christ. The penalty of sin is death, and no man can die more than once, so by passing from death to life in Christ, we pass beyond the penalty of death for sin, because our account is marked "paid in full" by God, beause of Christ, and our union with Him in spirit.

One charactestic of this relationship is 'brotherly love' (sadly lacking in the tone of some of the posts in this forum!).

Sometimes brotherly love involves trying to gently correct the error of another brother, too. And when the brother in error stops responding, it makes one wonder why. I have posted several things to you that you did not answer, designed to help you see where you were not clearly seeing the Truth. I got silence in return.

Perhaps you interpret my intent differently than I'm trying to deliver it. I'm not one for candy-coating things. (Jesus wasn't much for candy-coating things either) Soteriology is very important, and the Doctrine of the Atonement is even more important. Brotherly love isn't all roses and light, and smiles and good feelings. It's is speaking the truth in love, but firmly. Sorry if that offends you.

 

[AlbertaBoy]

Sometimes brotherly love involves trying to gently correct the error of another brother, too. And when the brother in error stops responding, it makes one wonder why. I have posted several things to you that you did not answer, designed to help you see where you were not clearly seeing the Truth. I got silence in return.

Perhaps you interpret my intent differently than I'm trying to deliver it. I'm not one for candy-coating things. (Jesus wasn't much for candy-coating things either) Soteriology is very important, and the Doctrine of the Atonement is even more important. Brotherly love isn't all roses and light, and smiles and good feelings. It's is speaking the truth in love, but firmly. Sorry if that offends you.

Sometimes, "speaking the truth in love" is a slippery slope...

1Co 10:12

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

To me "soteriology" is Jesus. Period. How is a person saved? By Jesus. Only Jesus. "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world..." Jo.1:29

We may not always agree on HOW Jesus does this; but if we do not all agree that Jesus only does this, then we are NOT where God can actually work with us.

 

[nobdysfool]

Sometimes, "speaking the truth in love" is a slippery slope...

1Co 10:12

Believe me, I am acutely aware of that warning. But that doesn't negate what has been said.

To me "soteriology" is Jesus. Period. How is a person saved? By Jesus. Only Jesus. "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world..." Jo.1:29

We may not always agree on HOW Jesus does this; but if we do not all agree that Jesus only does this, then we are NOT where God can actually work with us.

I can agree with that, for the study of Soteriology is of the Doctrine of Salvation. We don't have to understand it to BE saved, but it is good to gain an understanding of it, for the boost in gratitude and thanksgiving to Jesus for doing so for US, and the blessing it brings to the heart at the Wisdom and Power of God. Why wouldn't you want to know more, and to know it correctly, as it is revealed in His Word? His Word is our life! "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". We have 66 books within one book, full of that Word.

 

[jerusalem]

2 Cor. 5:21 "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Hmmmm, this seems to contradict "sin cannot be imputed to Jesus".....

All is often not what it seems! See my new thread.

Please accept my apologies for not responding sooner. There are days when I simply can't find the time to reply to forum posts. Patience is a virtue!

 

[AlbertaBoy]

Essentially true. What you have failed to adequately account for is the means by which that was made possible.

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!

For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (Gal 2:16-21)

Please note that this supports what I have been saying. Paul says "I through the Law died to the Law, so that I might live to God". How did he do that? By being crucified with Christ. How does that happen? When we believe, we are joined to Christ, so that God counts what happened to Him as having happened to us (death, burial, resurrection), and it is on that basis that the Righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

We are literally delivered from the penalty for sin and debt of sin we had, and the debt and penalty was borne by Christ in our stead, so God through our union with Christ counts the debt as paid, the penalty satisfied, and we are raised from death into life in Christ, free the the debt of sin, and beyond the penalty of death for sin, because the penalty is already paid for us in Christ. The penalty of sin is death, and no man can die more than once, so by passing from death to life in Christ, we pass beyond the penalty of death for sin, because our account is marked "paid in full" by God, beause of Christ, and our union with Him in spirit.



Sometimes brotherly love involves trying to gently correct the error of another brother, too. And when the brother in error stops responding, it makes one wonder why. I have posted several things to you that you did not answer, designed to help you see where you were not clearly seeing the Truth. I got silence in return.

Perhaps you interpret my intent differently than I'm trying to deliver it. I'm not one for candy-coating things. (Jesus wasn't much for candy-coating things either) Soteriology is very important, and the Doctrine of the Atonement is even more important. Brotherly love isn't all roses and light, and smiles and good feelings. It's is speaking the truth in love, but firmly. Sorry if that offends you.

Did Paul "die to the law" under his own steam? Did he, or does anyone have the "power" to do such a thing of their own volition? To become "crucified with Christ" is not something we can do on our own, simply by "belief."

The Bible says clearly, "by grace, through faith." We can do nothing without Jesus. (Jo.15:5). How could Paul do anything simply by "belief" when even the demons "believe." (James 2:19).

I want to know that I am saved, not believe that I am saved.

Like Nicodemus, we must be willing to enter into life in the same way as the "chief of sinners." Besides Christ, "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12.

Through faith we receive the grace of God; but faith is not our Saviour. It earns nothing. It is the hand by which we lay hold upon Christ, and appropriate His merits, the remedy for sin. And we cannot even repent without the aid of the Spirit of God.

The Scripture says of Christ, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. Repentance comes from Christ as truly as does pardon.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The Spirit writes God's law on our hearts. (Jer.31:33, Heb.8:10, 10:16-17).

When we surrender to the love of Christ which is drawing us to Him; the heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

 

[nobdysfool]

Did Paul "die to the law" under his own steam? Did he, or does anyone have the "power" to do such a thing of their own volition? To become "crucified with Christ" is not something we can do on our own, simply by "belief."

The Bible says clearly, "by grace, through faith." We can do nothing without Jesus. (Jo.15:5). How could Paul do anything simply by "belief" when even the demons "believe." (James 2:19).

I want to know that I am saved, not believe that I am saved.

Like Nicodemus, we must be willing to enter into life in the same way as the "chief of sinners." Besides Christ, "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12.

Through faith we receive the grace of God; but faith is not our Saviour. It earns nothing. It is the hand by which we lay hold upon Christ, and appropriate His merits, the remedy for sin. And we cannot even repent without the aid of the Spirit of God.

The Scripture says of Christ, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. Repentance comes from Christ as truly as does pardon.

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The Spirit writes God's law on our hearts. (Jer.31:33, Heb.8:10, 10:16-17).

When we surrender to the love of Christ which is drawing us to Him; the heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

What's your issue? I think I explained myself quite clearly. We are talking about what happened at the Atonement, and how we are counted as righteous (imputed with Christ's Righteousness), and how we are counted by God as having fulfilled ALL the Law, the same as Christ. And it should be obvious that this applies only to Believers, not to all men without exception. Faith and Repentanxce are gifts from God, through Grace. No man can do this under his own power, by his own force of will, or on his own initiative.

So, what's the problem?