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  1. lumberjohn

    THE GREATEST QUESTION OF ALL TIME: WHAT IS FAITH ?

    Pie, Both of the definitions you cite use evidence as a synonym for proof, which only supports my point. You seem fond of calling any argument for which you have no adequate response a logical fallacy, but I'm afraid that doesn't get you off the hook. Aside from the fact that you seem to have...
  2. lumberjohn

    THE GREATEST QUESTION OF ALL TIME: WHAT IS FAITH ?

    Pie. If you find my definition circular, then you clearly do not understand the meaning of "standard." Try Dictionary.com. And it appears by your final statement you have proven my point -- that faith represents a substitute for evidence. Your ultimate position, however, is incoherent. For...
  3. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Actually, it is Stephen HAWKING, which is merely one of the things that indicates to me you have no expertise in this area. But let's look at what Mr. Hawking has to say on this issue: "At . . . the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would...
  4. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Are we in Bizarro world? You were the one negatively comparing today's secular society with the God fearing past of 200/60 years ago. I was the one citing the present as progress! Make up your mind.
  5. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Whether we can assume a pattern beyond the Big Bang is not a question of logic, but of physics, and the overwhelming consensus of physicists disagrees with you. While it may work for you and other non-scientifically literate Americans, you can't possibly expect to convince anyone else. You are...
  6. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    What on Earth does it mean to be "spiritually minded?" You are hiding behind a vague and obscure term. You've offered no reason to believe there is any other half to the deck. I believe the material world is the whole deck. What evidence do you have to the contrary?
  7. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Actually, I'm pretty sure we had causes and effects well before the Renaissance, but I don't want to be pedantic. Perhaps you mean cause/effect based arguments for God's existence go back to the Renaissance. In fact, they too go back much farther. But that is just an argument from antiquity. The...
  8. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Actually, we do know that Aquinas was wrong, and it's pretty simple to understand why. I'm quoting Sean Carroll here, because I don't think I can explain it any better: "Aristotle thought that, to keep an object moving in a straight line, you had to keep pushing it. This seems silly to us...
  9. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    you seem to have a nostalgic longing for the 50s and 60s. Perhaps you should sit down for a few seasons of Mad Men to see how much "better" society was back then -- especially for African-Americans, women, homosexuals, and just about anyone not a male WASP. Or perhaps your nostalgia is greater...
  10. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Did I miss something? Aren't we all material minded? Of what is your mind composed? What are these limitations, and how are they effectively addressed by a different approach? Of course, you will need to demonstrate that this different approach is in fact more reliable, and thus superior, in...
  11. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    I know of no atheist that takes "there is no God" as some dogmatic principle. All the atheists I know simply don't believe in God because God fails the test of epistemic reasonableness. They likewise don't believe in other things that fail this test - not because of some dogmatic commitment, but...
  12. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Are you kidding? Many of the greatest societies known to man made their accomplishments without Christianity: Greece during the golden age, the early Roman Empire, several dynasties of China, the Islamic empire under Muhammad, or the historic Japanese culture. Look to medieval Christianity for...
  13. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Please cite some atheist dogma for us. I want to make sure I'm towing the party line.
  14. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    1. We now know Aquinas was wrong about this. Everything is in motion and this may have been so for all eternity. There is no need for a "First Mover." 2. Causality is something we have observed within our own post-Big Bang universe, but we have no justification for extrapolating it beyond...
  15. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    With all this discussion of dark matter and quantum mechanics, it may be useful to step back and discuss why arguments like these fail from the outset. They are merely arguments from ignorance.The argument from ignorance posits that any time science can’t provide a definitive answer to some...
  16. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    “I exist” is a properly basic assumption. Another is “My senses and memory sometimes provide me with accurate information.” In my view, these are the only justified properly basic assumptions. They may be false, but to deny them is to deny any possibility of obtaining reliable knowledge. Without...
  17. lumberjohn

    Logic and faith

    Archaeopteryx has made most of the points I would have raised, so I'll try not to be too repetitive. What I think you are failing to recognize is that Plantinga and Craig are talking about a justification that is independent of evidence and reason. The entire point of a "properly basic" belief...
  18. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    While I find what you have done quite honorable, I don't see it as a good analogy for God. I presume the plan for your adopted boy did not require raping and killing thousands of people. God's plan did. God destroyed every human on Earth except a single family. God ordered the murder of...
  19. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    Wayne, You never really answer my question of why a timeless, all-knowing God would have needed to change his plan mid-course. You say that "gray paint" was never God's plan, but how could anything come about that was not part of God's plan? God is the master of time and space. If a result...
  20. lumberjohn

    How does one come to believe something?

    You appear to be adopting the arguments of Paul Copin attempting to justify the Canaanite massacre. Copin claims that the Canaanites were so wicked that even their children deserved to be brutally annihilated. This argument is highly problematic for many reasons, though time and space require...