Drinking

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Artofwar

Jesus was a Jew, the Jews held a Sader part of the Sader was the drinking of wine.

Peace to you,

Bill

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It would have been cut with water, more water than wine! That was the jewish custom. That is why, in the Cathlic mass, they mix wine and water. They, however usually use very little water. Of coarse sacramental wine isn't exactly the hard stuff, or top price stuff. I'm not meaning to be critical, that just would be pointless to what they believe.

Clay

clayrichard said:

That is why, in the Cathlic mass, they mix wine and water.

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Are you sure that is the reason?

Smoky said:

Can a case be made from the Bible that all drinking of alcoholic beverages is wrong?

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as I sit and sip my wine--not cut with water, no, the Bible does not forbid drinking alcohol.

I agree that there is no biblical stance that states to drink alcohol is forbidden. OF course to become drunk is a sin. So if you can handle 2 drinks without being drunk then I cannot see how this is truly a sin.

Now with that said, why have I always been told and preached to tha drinking any alcohol is a sin? Why as a christian do we feel embarresed if another christian sees us drinking a glass of wine or even a beer?? Seems like we are more worried about the judgement of men. Just my thoughts. WHat do you think?

magnum said:

I agree that there is no biblical stance that states to drink alcohol is forbidden. OF course to become drunk is a sin. So if you can handle 2 drinks without being drunk then I cannot see how this is truly a sin.

Now with that said, why have I always been told and preached to tha drinking any alcohol is a sin? Why as a christian do we feel embarresed if another christian sees us drinking a glass of wine or even a beer?? Seems like we are more worried about the judgement of men. Just my thoughts. WHat do you think?

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I agree.

But as for me, I am not embarrased, but am confused as to why they feel I am sinning.

clayrichard said:

Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

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Take it even a step further: Proverbs 31:6 "Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to the sorely depressed; When they drink, they will forget their misery, and think no more of their burdens."

clayrichard said:

It would have been cut with water, more water than wine! That was the jewish custom. That is why, in the Cathlic mass, they mix wine and water. They, however usually use very little water. Of coarse sacramental wine isn't exactly the hard stuff, or top price stuff. I'm not meaning to be critical, that just would be pointless to what they believe.

Clay

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That's not exactly correct. We mix water with the wine because water flowed with Christ's precious Blood when His side was pierced on the cross.

magnum said:

I agree that there is no biblical stance that states to drink alcohol is forbidden. OF course to become drunk is a sin. So if you can handle 2 drinks without being drunk then I cannot see how this is truly a sin.

Now with that said, why have I always been told and preached to tha drinking any alcohol is a sin? Why as a christian do we feel embarresed if another christian sees us drinking a glass of wine or even a beer?? Seems like we are more worried about the judgement of men. Just my thoughts. WHat do you think?

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The legal limit for intoxication is way below the limit where you feel "tipsy" so you must take into consideration that when the world says you are drunk you are drunk wether you know it or not.

Also the bible says that if it offendsyour brother then to stop doing it......well you drinking and callingyourself a christian offends me. so stop it already.

lastly. the wine of biblical days was only grape juice anyway not fermented because the fermenting process required levening and they drank "wine" during the feast of unleavening. so there fore even when it says wine in the bible it meant grape juice. And when paul told timothy to drink wine he meant grape juice also. If you ask any doctor if you have stomache problems do you drink wine he will tell you no. However grape juice is good foryour stomach and it has alot of anti oxidants in it to help heal .............

well you drinking and callingyourself a christian offends me. so stop it already.

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Well pardon me but I really do not care if little things offends you. You seem to be someone who thinketh he seteth the ruleth.

I do not have to call myself a christian. Jesus does that because he redeemed me.

If I have a glass of wine with my wife during dinner it is no one's affair.



Matt 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.


Your rules can apply to you but do not apply to me.


I am not redeemed by your opinion. I know that is hard for you to swallow but hey so will be your pride on that day

magnum said:

I am not redeemed by your opinion. I know that is hard for you to swallow but hey so will be your pride on that day

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I dont know what you're talking about. besides i wasn't even talking to you.

Somebody who has a glass of wine or someother alcoholic beverage from time to time will not be condemed to hell. But if you never take a drink of alcohol you will never become an alcoholic and that can be said for any other addiction related problems.
I myself quit drinking totally when I became a Christian and I vowed to the Lord I would never touch it again.

Hmm. Tough issue for me to take a stance on...

On one side, I firmly believe that drinking any of our alcoholic beverages today is against God's Will for us. I know that I myself, however, easily stumble when the issue of alcohol comes up though, so I never drink it anyways. I don't know, I think it becomes pretty obvious that the Bible admonishes us not to drink anything, when you look at what was acceptable to drink back then, and what was not acceptable. It doesn't take a graduate level analysis of scripture to determine that. However, I think that society, and personal preferance, has shifted personal opinion on the matter to be incorrect.

But then, the other side of the coin is, I fear sounding like a legalist like the Pharisees and Scribes that Jesus himself rebuked. I don't know. All I know is that I will not drink, and I will teach my family not to drink either.

Quick subnote: Finally 15! I can post Links! Yay... ok, I'm a dork. But this will make debates more fun.

If it isn't possible for one to drink responsibly then I think they should avoid it alltogether. But there is nothing wrong with responsible drinking.

alexeeah said:

The legal limit for intoxication is way below the limit where you feel "tipsy" so you must take into consideration that when the world says you are drunk you are drunk wether you know it or not.

Also the bible says that if it offendsyour brother then to stop doing it......well you drinking and callingyourself a christian offends me. so stop it already.

lastly. the wine of biblical days was only grape juice anyway not fermented because the fermenting process required levening and they drank "wine" during the feast of unleavening. so there fore even when it says wine in the bible it meant grape juice. And when paul told timothy to drink wine he meant grape juice also. If you ask any doctor if you have stomache problems do you drink wine he will tell you no. However grape juice is good foryour stomach and it has alot of anti oxidants in it to help heal .............

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Proverbs 31:6 "Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to the sorely depressed; When they drink, they will forget their misery, and think no more of their burdens."

So did you miss the above text? I don't think your position is supportable. I'm going to the bar to have a drink and share the Gospel. Today's Pharisees will call me a drunk who associates with the low life: it is so good to be indentified with my Jesus!

Consider also:

Below are all the Greek words for wine and their meanings used in the New Testament. Interesting to note that the NEW WINE was not as we might've supposed, a none alcoholic beverage, but actually the more potent and inebriating type!

Result of search for "wine":

1098 gleukos glyoo'-kos akin to 1099; sweet wine, i.e. (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine:--new wine.

3025 lenos lay-nos' apparently a primary word; a trough, i.e. wine-vat:--winepress.

3525 nepho nay'-fo of uncertain affinity: to abstain from wine (keep sober), i.e. (figuratively) be discreet:--be sober, watch.

3631 oinos oy'-nos a primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin (3196)); "wine" (literally or figuratively):--wine.

3632 oinophlugia oy-nof-loog-ee'-ah from 3631 and a form of the base of 5397; an overflow (or surplus) of wine, i.e. vinolency (drunkenness):--excess of wine.

3690 oxos oz-os from 3691; vinegar, i.e. sour wine:--vinegar.
3943 paroinos par'-oy-nos from 3844 and 3631; staying near wine, i.e. tippling (a toper):--given to wine.

5276 hupolenion hoop-ol-ay'-nee-on neuter of a presumed compound of 5259 and 3025; vessel or receptacle under the press, i.e. lower wine-vat:--winefat

NOTE: 1098 gleukos glyoo'-kos akin to 1099; sweet wine, i.e. (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine:--new wine. NEW WINE IS HIGHLY INEBRIATING

Don't drink (too much) and drive!

Blessings!
Brother Owl

The numbers below in the text refer to the Strong's number associated with the original word used and its definition. 03196 is translated from the Hebrew:

WINE: yayin {yah'-yin} which means simply: from an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication, intoxication:--banqueting, wine, wine(-bibber).

As we see the use of this type of wine is intoxicating.

Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine 03196, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

As we see Melchizedek king of Salem used this intoxicating wine.

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine 03196 : and he [was] the priest of the most high God.

The following text were simply pulled to show how prevalent the use of wine which was fermented and therefor at least potentially intoxicating is used in many places in the bible, these are but a few more and each time the same word which was used for the wine that got Noah stewed is being used.

Gen 27:25 And he said , Bring [it] near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison that my soul may bless thee. And he brought [it] near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine 03196 , and he drank.

Exd 29:40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine 03196 [for] a drink offering.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine 03196 nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations :

Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine 03196 tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Num 6:20 And the priest shall wave them [for] a wave offering before the LORD: this [is] holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine 03196.

Not to long ago I was informed by a MJ Rabbi that all wine that was kept in those times was fermented, the only way they had to preserve the drink. No refrigerators you see.

Blessings!
Brother Owl

Smoky said:

"The following text were simply pulled to show how prevalent the use of wine which was fermented and therefor at least potentially intoxicating is used in many places in the bible, these are but a few more and each time the same word which was used for the wine that got Noah stewed is being used."

But notice how "yayin" can also be used for fresh juice straight out of the grape!
Genesis 49:11 (NRSV)
Binding his foal to the vine
and his donkey's colt to the choice vine,
he washes his garments in wine
and his robe in the blood of grapes;

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I don't think you can use this verse as an argument for it is wholly symbolic and not a literal interpretation of events.

Blessings!
Brother Owl

There was no juice in the past really. We take things like refrigeration and pasteurization for granted, these did not exist back then.

As a person that does brew wine and beer from time to time, I can tell you that leaving out juice will result in alcohol. Without refrigeration to slow it down, or pasteurization to keep yeast and bacteria out, the juice will be infected and undergo anaerobic respiration.. the result will be alcohol.
Some brewers like to let nature take its course and use wild fermentation, although this can be a gamble in flavor.

Wine making came from a desire to make consistent wine from the same strain of yeast. The bible speaks of vineyards- Once grapes are in season, they need to be picked and stored. The only method at the time is to squeeze the grape juice and preserve it by having it undergo controlled fermentation.

There is nothing wrong with wine, it was the only way to store grape juice in the past and make water safe to drink. This does not excuse drinking excessively.

However, alcohol is the natural result of producing juice. It is only recently that we have found ways to prevent this final step long enough to finish it as unfermented juice. Once infected, it can take a batch only a day to a week or two to full ferment.

Smoky said:

Proverbs 23:30-31 (NASB-U)
Those who linger long over wine,
Those who go to taste mixed wine.
[31] Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it goes down smoothly; (in other words, do not "go to" places where you find wine, "linger long" over it , of even "look on" it!) Juice that moves around in the cup probably refers to the fermenting process!

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Yes, once the fermenting process ends, wine is aged and then served (without bubbling).